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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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 Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:47 am
I'm a little confused. What are you referring to when you mention J'onn's powers? I'm pretty sure I know, but I just need clarification.
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:27 pm
I was only using it in reference to Telepathy.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:05 pm
Alright, thanks.
I've thought out this fight several times from the discussions so far. Aside from what will happen in mid-battle, it will be the end that counts.
Unless Amazo can attack with greater strength than a planet-buster, Cell will only come back each time, stronger.
Sooner or later, Cell will resort to a final Kamehameha. Seeing as Amazo has the overall speed advantage, Cell will most likely combine the attack with Instant Transmission to increase his chances of a successful hit.
Seeing as neither character can survive a solar system attack, Cell won't purposely try to blow up the beam. Doing so would ensure his death as well. Also keep in mind the size of the beam. Even if Amazo managed to side-step the attack, the beam is far to high and wide to be dodged.
In the end, unless Amazo can survive a solar system buster, or unless he can attack with enough force to completely vaporize Cell, I'm seeing this as Cell's win.
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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:38 pm
Not to interrupt - nor to change the course or outcome of the debate - but Deity finds that it's worth noting that both #16 and #19 were 100% mechanical, hence the sparks and wires coming out of their limbs and necks when they were ripped apart. The only creations of Gero that implemented organic material (barring Cell) were #17 and #18, and it is stated that they were once human and were turned into cyborgs.
Thus, Deity believes their brains are mostly organic, as that would at least in part explain their constant disobedience. It would also serve to explain why Cell lost view of his goal (defeating Son) and decided instead to just destroy the Earth for shits and giggles. All of Gero's 100% mechanical androids never lost their urge to kill Son, which is evident when he tried to befriend #16 just before the Cell Game.
One could also argue that they (#17, #18 and Cell) bled actual blood and never once showed signs of mechanics within their bodies. Even Cell, who was more than once torn to pieces and bled all over the place, showed no signs of wires or mechanics - he also showed no sign of bowels and organs, which Toriyama was usually particular about including in the more gorey shots.
As a last note - Cell is the only android whose power could be felt, when the other five were invisible to the senses of the Z Fighters. Deity doesn't think there's a mechanical bone in Cell's body, actually... =P ...he was grown in a little tube, after all, and evolved over time.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:07 am
If #17 and #18 were turned into cyborgs, that must mean that they are partially mechanical in one way or another.
It actually was implied that there is some kind of mechanical components within the two. Gero threatened to deactivate/kill them by means of a 'self-destruct' button, or a button to simply shut them down. Before he could use it, #17 killed him, and intentionally crushed the controller, implying fear that it actually could have worked.
Also note the device that Bulma made and gave to Krillin. It was supposed to have a similar effect to that of Gero's device, yet Krillin decided not to use it. This also implies there being mechanical components within #18, and presumably, #17 as well.
Krillin wished for a bomb to be removed from #18. Having a bomb inside of her could imply that there are more mechanical components to go along with it.
The fact that #17 and #18's power could not be felt strongly suggests that there were very few organic structures within their bodies; significant ones that could generate energy, at least. This fact could also help disprove the theory that the only mechanical components within the two were bombs.
Aside from all of that, I believe that Cell is mostly organic. For all we know, the mechanical parts of the Androids could have somehow been integrated within his organic parts, and due to the fact that Cell himself was initially organic, his organic side took over and fused. In the end, we will never know for sure what Cell is made of.
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:12 pm
Deity never meant to imply that any android except Cell was purely organic. xD He knows very well what happens in the manga, and that #17 and #18 are at least in part mechanical. They likely ran off of an engine of power similar to #16's, as he also seemed to have unlimited energy which was invisible to the senses, and he was purely mechanical. The emergency switches made it clear that they were in part mechanical, and the bombs within them aren't exactly secrets. It seems that every creation of Gero's had one except for Cell - his self destruction seemed to be just something in his repertoire, not a bomb.
So yeah...Deity didn't mean to say that either android was purley organic, but that they had retained much of their human attitude and thus their brains were likely mostly organic. Seeing as Cell's power could be felt and that he was grown in a lab, Deity doubts there's even a few purely mechanical parts in him. The only thing that would suggest such is his absorption of the two cyborgs.
Your suggestion that he had a 'fusion' of sorts with #17 and #18 is actually probably right - why else would he require their absorption in order to become Perfect? SSJS2 Vegeta was stronger than both of them combined, and it was never even insinuated that absorbing him would make Cell complete. Gero probably made #17 and #18 with Cell in mind, and thus used components compatible with Cell's physiology for when he absorbed them. The only two people he vacuumed instead of stabbed were #17 and #18 - everyone else just melted.
Deity sorta thinks that Cell is made of chocolate pudding. >.>;
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:04 pm
That's one tasty android.
I'd say that Cell is mainly organic, due to the fact that those mechanical components of the Androids had to go somewhere.
With this in regards to the debate, due to the 'fusion' concept, I'd also say that most of Cell's organic components are somewhat mechanical as well. Not much, but partially.
Besides having Androids as growth food, Cell by himself is probably the most intelligent being in Dragonball Z. Would this contribute to how well he can fend off mental attacks?
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Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:46 pm
Dunno...but perhaps. . =; Intelligence may have a bearing on willpower, which is usually what judges whether or not a character can be mentally affected....take the old Jedi mind trick, for example. xD Still, Deity has no real say, since the only real psionic character of Dragon Ball was Babidi, and he even managed to control Doubler...
...also, one could argue that not only did those mechanical parts from #17 and #18 have to go somewhere, but so did their respective masses. They either shrank or...uhm...melted? Vegeta even stated that Cell's last form was the smallest one, so Cell actually shrank when he absorbed #18, indicating that her mass didn't add to his despite her being swallowed whole.
That further implies a 'fusion' - maybe Cell was made of organic mechanics. =P ...a total mix of what is known as organic and what one would find in an android. That would then explain Cell's weird-looking insides without contradicting his ability to sweat and bleed.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:21 am
The Fierce Deity All of Gero's 100% mechanical androids never lost their urge to kill Son, which is evident when he tried to befriend #16 just before the Cell Game. What about #8? Edit: That would have to make him a Cyborg, like 17 and 18. They never really stated if he was or not, so I guess that could be.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:36 am
@ Deity: That would make the most sense so far. I'm thinking of Cell as kind of the 'Mother Brain' (from Metroid) of the Dragonball Z universe. It's a complete combination of organic and mechanical components, not to mention highly intelligent.
Due to this potential 'fusion', I'd estimate that Cell is approximately 50% mechanical. His larvae and first stage forms were presumably only organic. Absorbing two completely separate beings, who both contained significant amounts of mechanisms, adds up to quite a bit of tech within him.
One could say that going by the amount of beings that Cell is comprised of (himself and two androids), that he should be around 2/3 mechanical. However, due to the Androids being mostly, not completely mechanical, that should reduce 2/3 by a little. I would say that the reduction should not drop any lower than 50%, due to the simple fact that two pro-mechanical bodies, quantity-wise, dominates one pro-organic body, along with the fact that Cell is the central body, which was originally organic.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:43 am
Being half and half would make cell a cyborg and generally most cyborgs have an organic brain. This could be a tie depending on whether or not Amazo invades Cell's mind or Cell using his solar system busting attack.
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:06 am
A few things to consider:
1 - Would Amazo even use mind disruption? From what you've said, although he has the ability to use it, he never has.
2 - Does mind disruption work regardless of how intelligent or complex someone's brain is?
3 - Considering the fusion concept, Cell's brain doesn't necessarily have to be only organic. Wouldn't Amazo have a harder time using the technique if Cell's brain was partially mechanical?
4 - Is there actually a way for Amazo to kill Cell in this fight?
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:26 am
Saiyan Master Vegeta A few things to consider: 1 - Would Amazo even use mind disruption? From what you've said, although he has the ability to use it, he never has. 2 - Does mind disruption work regardless of how intelligent or complex someone's brain is? 3 - Considering the fusion concept, Cell's brain doesn't necessarily have to be only organic. Wouldn't Amazo have a harder time using the technique if Cell's brain was partially mechanical? 4 - Is there actually a way for Amazo to kill Cell in this fight? He's used it for telepathy, and with his intelligence if all else failed logically he would use it. It worked on a member of the Thanagarian elite, it would work but Amazo would probably take some damage. Depending on the form Cell's mental defense manifested itself in. When J'onn used it on someone who would be particularily dificult it put strain on him that manifested in scratches all over himself. But prying that hard caused the person he used it on to go brain dead. When brought back to where he could function the guy was an idiot. I could think of several though alot of them might not work unless Cell just stood there which doubt. Thinking back I've discovered something that would prvent Amazo from being destroyed. Hawkgirl had used her Nth metal mace to deflect a planet destoying blast from a cannon in " In War World" And Amazo copied her technology and mace. With that in mind he could deflect a planet destroying blast by sending it back at Hawkgirl. I'm not trying to be a b*****d but could you give me the name of the Episode where it said Cell could destoy a solar system? I believe it I just don't remember it. Here's the episode, sorry I cound;t find anything smaller. http://www.veoh.com/videos/v967224e8fEHNwQ?searchId=4462652278623332585&rank=3
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Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:55 am
@Trevor: Mm, good point...that may also have something to do with #8's Frankenstein's Monster-like appearance. . =; The earlier volumes of Dragon Ball were clearly more comedic in nature than the latter ones, anyway. It could also be brought up that the androids at that point were not yet made for the sole purpose of destroying Son, while all of the others that we saw (#16, #17, #18, #19, #20, #21/Cell) were....but that doesn't say a lot, as #8 still went against orders to kill Son.
@Andrew: Cell states in the manga that he has so much ki that he could blow away the solar system. Those aren't his precise words, but they're close enough.
@Veggie: Deity pretty much just agrees... xD
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