An Infinite Universe

[SneakyPope]

Quote:

I personally don't think that infinity repeats it's self because once you finished infinity then there would be an infinite number of more infinities, but what do I know I never counted to infinity maybe you can ask Chuck Norris I'm sure he's done it a couple of times.

Um, that doesnt really make any sence. If you "finished" it. Then its not infinity. Its just ......big. So I don't really believe that it could repeat.

_Pearl.  

[Maximillian Shadowdrake]

Scientists now say that the universe as we think of it might not be infinite after all, that it's merely a horrificly large number of lightyears across. Sort of a snowglobes within snowglobes kinda thing. If reality WERE infinite, there'd be an inifinite number of things completely identical, inifite amounts of mostly identical, and an infinate number of completely different things. Since it can't exist, I theorize that the EDGE of infinity must be a very wierd place. Very weird indeed...  

[Noetical]

The Almighty Bobbu

This question, and a number of the points brought up in the responses, depend really on what we're talking about by 'infinite'.

Infinite can be both a concept or a true number - it can refer to the idea of a process which goes on indefinitely, or it can be a reference to a set of items, things or existences which have no end to them. Numbers can be used to show these two different meanings for 'infinity':

If we were to begin counting, aiming to get to the highest number (which does not exist), then we would undertake an infinite process, with no end. The entire process is something 'infinite'.

However, the 'number infinite' works like this (it's quite a famous example, though I can't recall right now who came up with it. I'm gonna state The Science Of Discworld III as my reference): A man has a hotel with an infinite number of rooms. Each room exists as a finite thing, but is part of an infinite series - just as the days of the week match the series of 'seven', so these rooms match the series of 'infinite'. Each room can only fit one person in, and each room is occupied.
So what happens when someone else comes along and wants a room? Simple - you move everyone up into the next room (person from room 1 into room 2, person from room 2 into room 3 etc) and put the newcomer into room 1. Why can you do this? Because there are infinite rooms. No matter how many times someone comes wanting a room, there will be room for them - infinity will in effect become bigger, but remain infinity. Even if an infinite number of people arrived, there would still be room for them, and there would remain an infinite (but a bigger infinite - but don't even try to get your head around that) number of rooms in the hotel.

Which is why there can be such a thing as infinity+1, and then again, there can't be. It depends on which type of infinity you're talking about.

So if we're asking 'Is the universe an infinite process?' then at the moment the good odds are on 'yes.' However, we will probably never know for sure, unless we manage to prove string theory right or wrong.

If we're asking whether it is infinite numerically, and therefore probably in volume, it appears that the answer is no - but on second glance it may be yes.. because infinity can indeed expand, as shown above.

Though here I'm using 'universe' in the modern context, which tends to mean 'The physical spacetime which we humans inhabit, and which obeys the rules of physics that we observe'. However, if we were to use it in the 'everything that exists' definition, then there is an uncertainty about whether or not the first definition is the same as the second definition. The 'multiverse' is a possibility brought onto being by quantum mechanics and string theory. However, it is very much a possibility. The physicists argue that in a universe which is infinite (and string theory implies this), then everything which is possible must therefore exist somewhere/when (spacetime is odd like that). However, not only are we uncertain of the infinite nature of the universe, but we are also unsure of the genuine applicability of this concept. Though the mathematics works well if we use a 'multiple worlds' perspective, there is no reason to assume that this is physically accurate - Newton's gravity works mathematically -up until the subatomic level where quantum takes over. So though we can trust the maths, it is clearly not a valid representation of the real world.

It's a bit of a Schroedinger's cat situation (search wikipedia if you're unfamiliar): though the maths say that the cat in the box is both living and dead, we know that this cannot be the case. What physicists say is that this means that the cat is living in one universe, and living in another - they 'reify' the physical equation used to work out whether the cat is alive or dead. But the evidence that supports the reification of this equation into a real universe model is non-existent. We must always remember that maths is a model, not the real thing.

Now, 'if the universe was infinite, would it repeat itself?' I'll use the first definition of universe to make things more sensible. Not if it were an infinite process: it would simply continue onwards. If it were infinite numerically, then this has very little bearing on whether it would repeat itself or not - it boils down to whether or not the universe will eventually contract after it's expansion.

Oh, and we know that the Earth is round because of the way it acts gravitationally. A curves in spacetime are caused by mass, and the curves create gravity. The only way the Earth could create the illusion of being round whilst being flat would in fact to not be flat, and to be far denser than it actually is. Plus, a flat Earth poses the standard problem - why have the seas not flown over the edge?

although I only read half your post, i wanted to question that quote about the hotel. Now it says their is inifinite rooms right? and you talk of, more people coming to stay in the infinite rooms and everyong moving down one and never running out of room because the number of rooms is infinite. But this isnt actually increasing the number of rooms right? it always was and has remained an infinite amount of rooms, the people coming and filling up the rooms arnt adding to the number of the rooms, the rooms are already there right? so your not really creating a bigger infinity or infinity+1 ?

sorry i cant be bothered to proof read what ive just said lol  

[edgewalker00]

we can't really understand the universe.

some posts already stated that the universe is expanding but on what?

let's have a pizza for example, the toppings of a pizza are the planets and the moons, stars and suns, the sauce is the universe and the dough is the plane on which the universe expand.

if we would have a bigger pizza pan, obviously we would want to add more sauce and more toppings but the question now is what makes the pan bigger?

if the universe expands, what does cause it to expand? is it also a living organism that evolves, making it adapt to whatever environment it exists?  

[27x]

I gave up trying to understand the universe a long itme ago. It's just too big. In my opinion you should start with teh sun and work your way up.  

[Pifflestick]

The universe is infinite but it dosn't repeat, eventually it just goes black. No more stars, no more planets, just black. You can keep going, but after the black point it just goes on forever like that. Booooorrrring.  

[AbrAbraxas]

maybe the universe is curved but appears to be linear, so if you travel in one direction long enough you would end up where you began.  

[aaaaafkp]

Infinity.

I can picture a man inside a television, who is watching television of a man who is watching television (so forth.) ... The concurrent time of that event is slim, yet conceivable. The possibility that there is an endless string of televisions, this is what I cannot comprehend.

There are three things man will never understand:
1) Do I know everything?
2) Infinity
3) Nothing

We are merely ants in the universes' eye. We are a piece of sand in a desert. I think the probability that we find the edge of the universe in any day and age soon to this is not going to happen.

But I do believe this-
Where the universe expands, more anomalies of science occur. The fabric of space will shift. I believe there is other life out there. I can write this, but I cannot understand it- Space and time are infinite.  

[aaaaafkp]

Oh, and here's an interesting theory someone wrote:



"Anyway, back to the point. Have you ever wondered why space is black? Of course not, it's such a basic question that thinking about it would be absurd. However, I'm asking you to think about it for a just a moment. If you were to turn out all of the lights in your room, then there would be blackness. It's very simple, and basic third grade science tells us that the Black is the complete absence of light. However it does not really specify where this blackness exists. Shadows fall onto objects. As does blackness. It has a location. In other words, if you stare at the wall that is black because there is no light, the location of the blackness is on the wall, not in the space between the wall and yourself. If you put your hand up (in front of your face) , the blackness falls onto your hand, not the space in between you and your hand. Still following?

Lets apply the same logic (as screwed up as it is) to space. Now, if we are to believe that there is nothing in space, thus the term space would make sense, then it should be no color. What color is no color? I have no idea, because the is nothing that exists to create no color, because the very fact that something exists deems that it has a color. Its like gods voice, you cant imagine it, its beyond out brain capacity. Anyway, we know that there is nothing located between our planet and a star, because we can see a star. So the ether, or space between our planet and a given star, is not black, but just non-existent. The fact remains that in order for something to have color, or be black, there must be something for this color to fall on. There must be some curtain beyond our edge of the universe that is has no light, and causes the color of black.

Maybe we are a new universe, and an older previous universe died out and condensed into and spherical black shell beyond the edge of our current universe."  

[27x]

I like to call the universe," This Realm" Since I believe that their could be others.

Here's a few theories for you.

1. Maby the universe goes on forever, including the planets and stars. If
This is true, then it is concievable, that there would be places where
some object's are in complete darkness, and that the this ream is
so big, that a bunch of these could surround the perimiter of our view.
Or maby after a point, there aren't any starrs, but there still are an
endless number of planets.
2. Maby the color of nothing is also black. Black is just a name we gave it.
Just because it has a name doesen't make it a real color.
3. We can't see all of the colors on the color spectrum. Maby nothing just
looks like black to us.
4. Maby that guy's theory is wrong.

1. Well you put a live camra behind the man watching tv, and feed the
video and sound into the tv, so it looks like an infinite tv event, like you
explained had occoured. Or you could have two large mirrors paralell
to eachother, on their side, and stand inbewteen them.

1. To say that the mater in the universe absoloutly stops, is stating it as an
absoloute truth guy.


You have the right to free will. You have the right to question god's existence. You have the right to have a revelation, and then dissapear from history for 10 years, then come back and start a new religeon. Finally. You have the right to be pwned my awsome paradox!!!

You haven't been that far out into the universe, otherwise you would be dead before you made it back here. And if it is as you said, then you couldn't be an alien or a robot or something like that if theirs nothign out there. If you haven't been out there, then there's really no way to know.  

[McWhopper]

possibly.

there is a theory that the universe just curves into itself, just like a sphere.  

[Amenubis]

Perhaps our method of communicating this vastness is insufficient to describe infinity. Maybe infinity is something you taste. Perhaps there is an underdeveloped sense with which to percieve the unperceptable.

Perhaps the limit of our ability to classify and describe the nature in which something becomes "infinite" is insufficient, or too colorful, unable to be bound by description of itself inside "science". Maybe we can only imply it's vastness, nothing else.  

[dybo]

The universe is infinate and non-infinate (how's THAT for a quandry).

Since the origin of the universe, the light waves at the origin have been spreading outward into an endless...gap (actually not a gap, because that implies there is space beyond the edge, which there cannot be, because matter hasn't reached there yet to define what is not matter). So, there is a light boundry on the universe, beyond which nothing can exist. So, because there is a boundry, the universe is not infinate. However, this boundry is constantly expanding at the speed of light, meaning that it's impossilbe to reach this boundry, or beyond, without breaking the laws of physics. The boundry will continue to expand into the infinate gap, faster than we can reach it. This is sort of the idea that "Infinity is one more than you can count." We cannot prove, positivly or negatively, that the boundry actually exists, meaning that the universe is infinate. So, the universe is infinate and not infinate at the same time. Huzzah!  

[Niniva]

AbrAbraxas

maybe the universe is curved but appears to be linear, so if you travel in one direction long enough you would end up where you began.

The universe is curved, but it is curved in such a way that it could not possibly curve back into itself. Think of it more like a squiggly line curving one way and then back.

As time and space relative then I believe relativity is certainly at the heart of the issue here. First off, that is assuming that infinity is even a definable thing.

The word itself seems to be a circular thing to me. Define infinite....something that is beyond measurement.

Well giving something a name is a way of measuring it, via description, thus if I can describe something as infinite then it really isn't infinite, it's just "What I call it because there are no available words to describe something so large."

Space is not infinite as it depends on a vantage point or "referance frame" in physics. Thus even if something "looked" infinite space wise, it isn't since space is merely (via relativity) the observable distance between and two things (that is physical objects or events), and thus it cannot be infinite as no two "things" are ever so far appart that they cannot be measured. There would be no relationship between them at all if the space between them was infinite thus infinite space is impossible.

As far as the universe is concerned, does it contain and "infinite amount" of space? That depends on which referance frame you choose. Since in relativity the no one referance frame is absolute nor are any special in any sense of the word, the answer is an arbitrary one. From my vantage point there is a limited amount of space since all things seem to be "such and such" a distance appart. (That is the combined distance between all objects in the universe) Of course the math between them all would take an absurd amount of time but much like anything else if I simply knew how many events existed in the universe at the present time then I could potentially calculate the size of the universe based on the two objects with the furthest physical relationship from each other.

Since Referance frame is totally dependent upon innertia then something that is potentially moving faster then me in that exact simultanious moment would potentially NOT see the universe as the same size. The faster you go the more space seems to shrink so to a thing moving faster then I am, all of the events in the universe share relationships that are much closer together space wise. Interestingly enough though, their time AND space relationships combined together form a four dimensional relationship that is frame free.

So the question you are asking is this....is there an infinite amount of four dimensional relationships in the universe.

The answer is no.

The events that took place at the begining of time (The very first point in the four dimensional grid) to the fastest moving referance frame (speed of light) and it's relationship to what is going on at present (unless of you hold true to future events being determined and set in stone in which case this idea still works) is the smallest the universe could possibly be, and the slowest moving thing in the universe would be responsible for providing use with the largest "space" values in the four dimensional grid.

So the size of space is certainly measurable when you consider it from any one vantage point but keep in mind the size of space is completely and totally dependent upon the inertial frame of the referance point, thus making your question arbitrary.

To humans is the universe infinite? Only if you define infinite as that "we cannot yet measure".

Can the universe repeat itself? I suppose that depends on what you mean by repeat itself? Just because someone or some thing experiences an event at a different "time" does not mean that the event repeated itself. Every event has only one point on the relative four dimensional grid. Some things experience them at different times in the same place, some things experience them at different places at the same time. So no....the universe never ever repeats itself.

I love science.  

[27x]

The whole idea is that the universe is so potentially big, that there has to be someplace out there that is exactly the same as the place we are in.

Allthough that may be true, it still doesn't justify the fact that if you travel the same distance in the same direction, you'll find another one just like us in the exact place. Its stupid to think that our universe, becaues it potentially has a copy of our world, has those copies following a pattern.

Then there is the idea that because the universe is so monumentally huge, there must be a patter that we don't know about. A pattern with so many combinations that we couldn't understand it. I think that's silly too.

There is another earth? Maby. That earth has to be in an exact location followinga straight line untill the end of infinity? Not plausable.