Is Snape Truly Evil? *spoiler warning* | Page 3 | The Order of the Phoenix: A Harry Potter Guild | Guild Forums

DaxCordite

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Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:38 am

Mouseyman

I see no one begs to differ. I must be truly convincing. biggrin

Actually I've been planning a long comment on your posts I just haven't had time to sit down and type it up yet.

In short I don't agree with you're interpretation of events. The Indepth post will have to wait until later today most likely.

Edited to add Here's my reply to your post.

Mouseyman

Ah none of you got it right. Snape is good, obviously. You see, Snape did always want things his way. He is a b*****d in general. That's why most people hate him. But his life sucks. So he takes it out on people. Which hides the fact that Snape, deep down, is good. Or rather on Dumbledore's side. Yes, it's better put that way. Dumbledore was the only man in the universe who ever truly cared about poor severus.

Does Dumbledore Care about Snape sure Dumbledore cares about everyone. I even believe Dumbledore Cares about Tom Riddle and wishes he could have helped him make different choices.

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And when he made that unbreakable vow he probably didn't know what he was getting into. He didn't know about Voldemort's plans. But he probably figured it out later using his and Dumbledore's genious (and some spywork from Snape) After Snape found out what he'd done he wanted quits. (he did not want to kill Dumbledore) Dumbledore told Severus that he must kill him so he wouldn't lose his cover as a death eater. Severus tried to back out. But Dumbledore made him promise.

The Conversation with Narcissa and Belletrix makes it quiet clear IMO that Snape knew Draco's mission. And Snape IMO is not the type to make an Unbreakable vow and not know what he's swearing to do. Given the cost of breaking it is death and nothing Snape has ever done in 6 Books has given me the impression he's Selfless enough to risk Death just to put someone's mind at ease by swearing to do something he doesn't know.

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So as they were up there Dumbledore was acting all tough in front of three death eaters and a werewolf set on eating. Then Severus came up and Albus was pleading. Now any of those other four would have killed him just as likely as Snape would have. And why would a man who believed that death was only the beginning plead for his life. He was pleading for Snape to kill him. And this brings up another question.

I don't buy that at all. Dumbledore's comments IMO pointing toward him not even being aware that Snape made any promises to Narcissa. He even says "I'm sure that's what he told you." When Draco brings it up.

Also Believing that Death is not the end doesn't mean you want to die. I mean When you get down to it Dumbledore had quiet alot to live for and things he needed to do. First and Foremost was protecting Harry aslong as he was able and doing as much as possible to prepare him for the confrontation that has to take place one day.

Harry is a barely trained young man who only has protection for a few more months. I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore would kill himself to keep Snape's cover. Since his death removes the only major roadblock to Voldemort Killing Harry.

I also still think if Dumbledore had arranged his own death he'd have found someway of letting Harry know afterwards so Harry would understand.

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Is Dumbledore alive?
I only took this absurd question into consideration when I realized that a person has to mean an unforgivable curse. It takes a lot of hatred to kill somebody. And Snape did NOT want to kill Dumbledore at all. Not a single ounce in his body. Also, there was the look of loathing on his face. Maybe he was using the hatred of himself for what he was doing to kill Dumbledore. This question we won't know the answer to until the 7th book comes out. But we do know that Severus Snape is Dumbledore's man through and through

No we don't what you've expressed here is pure opinion. It's entirely possible Snape is just a lying Traitorous b*****d who killed Dumbledore than for no other reason than it was the Dark Lord's will.

IMO while it's possible to read the book with the idea that Snape is only acting on Dumbledore's orders it's far more probable that Snape is a traitor no if's and's or but's about it.

Mouseyman

ack! all you people that really believe that Snape is evil and haven't read my post, READ IT!! And if he hadn't done it than he would be considered selfish! To disobey Dumbledore and take the death for himself and not have to worry about any of this s**t anymore. He didn't want to pretend to be on Voldemort's side anymore, he just would rather get it over with and let the Order deal with it on their own. Snape really pulled through and did a good thing for the Order of the Phoenix. You'll thank him later, trust me. ^_^

All Conjecture we have no proof that Snape didn't want to be on Voldemort's side. Snape has said nothing about being tired or wanting out not in 6 books. And again there is no canon proof that Dumbledore ordered his own death at Snape's hands.

Even if by some IMO unlikely fluke Snape did turn out to be good and have done it all on Dumbledore's orders I won't thank the character. IMO he's still a b*****d even if he does end up on the good side or having allways been there. (I like Snape he's a facinating character but he's still a p***k)

Just as if Doloris Umbridge saved the day by some incredibly fluke she'd still be a sadistic lunatic who should be shot for the crap she pulled while a teacher.

Mouseyman

oh and what Voldemort loyal death eater would try to save Potter's a** from falling off a broom and dying? Bah humbug what he said in Spinner's end. No true death eater would have saved him. And that, my dears, is a fact.

Once again that's an Opinion. We don't know exactly how any other Death Eaters would react in that instance. What Snape said could have been a perfectly valid excuse. Since most of the Death eaters not in jail were under the belief that Voldemort was gone and as Snape said Harry was Dumbledore's favorite.

And Staying in Dumbledore's good graces was necessary to keep his comfortable way of life.

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 11:28 pm

I think He is dead. The picture of him came. And that means he is dead. People get over it. He never helped in the first place. He had to get harry to even get slughorn to start teaching again. What did he even do for Harry. He gave harry to the Dursleys for crying out loud.

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IceHogsGoal!!

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Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:27 pm

Of corse he's evil how can he not be he used the forbidden curse!

Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:53 am

Oh people As every one should know by now i am head of the rping in this quild. And i was hopeing that all the people that likes to rp would join. Here is the link if you cant find it. http://www.gaiaonline.com/guilds/viewtopic.php?t=1383871&page=1 Its called ~H.P And The Order Of Phoenix rp~. Thx for your time.

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Mouseyman

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Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:36 pm

Alright, if Dumbledore was not setting up his death he would not have wasted his time paralyzing Harry and not defending himself. If he really did not want to die at that time he could have easily taken Malfoy. EASILY!! He knew that Draco wasn't strong enough to kill him and that Snape would have to do the job. He didn't want Harry to interfere with the arranged death. and where was Snape and Draco running to? Well Snape was off to hide still innocent Draco from Voldemort. Remember what Dumbledore was telling Draco on the rooftop.

And you don't think Snape was lying. Well he said that Harry was just a mediocre wizard with higher skilled friends. Well Harry had faced Voldemort 5 times and come out each time alive by himself. Snape knows Harry is a skilled wizard. He was just making an excuse as to why he hadn't killed Potter yet.

Does that make it a little more clear to you?

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:15 am

Mouseyman

Alright, if Dumbledore was not setting up his death he would not have wasted his time paralyzing Harry and not defending himself. If he really did not want to die at that time he could have easily taken Malfoy. EASILY!! He knew that Draco wasn't strong enough to kill him and that Snape would have to do the job. He didn't want Harry to interfere with the arranged death. and where was Snape and Draco running to? Well Snape was off to hide still innocent Draco from Voldemort. Remember what Dumbledore was telling Draco on the rooftop.

Not if he really believed Draco wouldn't kill him. Dumbledore trust people and he really believed Draco wouldn't kill him. He paralysed Harry to save him and to keep him from doing anything to put himself in Jepardy. Protecting Harry was Dumbledore's priority. It's the reason he left him with neglectful relatives. It's been his driving motivation since the begining of the series.

We have no clue where Snape and Draco Disapparated to. They could just as easily have been off to join the Death Eater Celebration that was sure to occur over the death of Dumbledore. Ater all he was pretty much the biggest obstacle to Voldemort's victory.

There are some definate holes in the idea that DUmbledore would willingly die and leave no means to inform the ORder or Harry of it all being his plan all along. After all Snape's just hung a big target on his back. Most of the Order will most likely try to kill him on sight.

There's also the problem that no Dumbledore plus Lilly's protection leaving in a year means Harry is very much on his own.

Harry thoughts at the end were important it was him accepting that he couldn't count on anyone to protect him. Dumbledore having arranged it removes that lesson. It makes it once again Dumbledore fixes everything.

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And you don't think Snape was lying. Well he said that Harry was just a mediocre wizard with higher skilled friends. Well Harry had faced Voldemort 5 times and come out each time alive by himself. Snape knows Harry is a skilled wizard. He was just making an excuse as to why he hadn't killed Potter yet.

ACtually it's the Truth. Harry isn't the most powerful or skilled wizard and from the Death Eaters prospective Harry is just very lucky. Voldemort for instance didn't know Harry's wand shared cores with his which led to his escape.

Snape's attitude toward Harry regardless of his loyalties has allways been the truth. Snape hates Harry and Vice Versa and we know form comments that Voldemort intends to kill Harry himself.

And when you get down to it he has to kill him himself or risk loosing face infront of his followers. Better to keep them in line if they truely believe you to be Invinceble than to think they killed the one you couldn't.

IMO there is no doubt if it wasn't for that order Snape would have killed him for calling him a coward.

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Does that make it a little more clear to you?

I understand your viewpoint perfectly I just don't share it.

My opinion is that Snape is evil and that he willingly killed Dumbledore. Until Book Seven there is no way to say for sure because the story isn't over yet.

I mean it's very likely someone will be redeemed in book 7. It could be Snape or Draco or even Wormtail. I Happen to think Draco or Wormtail are more likely than Snape.

DaxCordite

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Kizule

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Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:52 pm

Dumbledore made him do it.

Let me start by says: I hate Snape. I also hate Dumbledore. And many of the other characters. But Dumbledore told Snape to kill him if it became nessicarry. Reasons? I've got plenty.

1. The unbreakable vow. Snape must have told Dumbledore about it. And even if he didn't, Harry did. Snape would have died if he didn't kill Dumbledore, and Dumbledore knew they needed Snape to kill The Dark Lord. Snape might not have even known what he was agreeing to when he made the vow. He might have not been let on on the secret, and wanted Bella and Narcissa to trust him more.

2. Dumbledore was probably dying from that arm curse anyway. That's why he aranged everything that summer. He knew he was dying. He told the Dursley's off, aranged Slughorn (who could be head of house after Snape), taught Harry, and did everything one would do if they knew they were dying. And if he was already dying, why waste his death? Use it for all its worth. Make Snape seem like he's very loyal to The Dark Lord.

3. Dumbledore giving him the DADA position finally. We know its cursed, and Dumbledore didn't want to lose Snape as a teacher, thats why he kept denying him the post of DADA teacher. Why give it to him now? Because he wasn't going to be a Hogworts anyway at the end of the year. Dumbledore knew. He aranged it.

4. Snape arguing with Dumbledore in the forest. Dumbledore was telling Snape to kill him and Snape was protesting. Just like when Dumbledore said "Severus, please." when Sanpe hesitated before killing him. He wanted Snape to kill him, because it would help the order.

5. The way Snape acts after Dumbledore is dead. First he tels the other Deatheaters to leave Harry alone, then he gives him dueling instrutions (rather rudly, I'll admit).

6. What JK said. Before the book came out someone asked her, "Will there be any redeption for Snape in the sixth book?" and she said, "Funny thing you should ask that." Guilty, huh? (Those may not be the exact words, sorry)

7. JK always redeems him, from the first book to the last. She just didn't fit his redeption in this book. Plus, Snape has had hundreds of oppertunitys to kill Harry, but he never did. In fact, he saved him several times. And those excuses he gives Bella and Narcissa seem a bit feeble to me.

8. Dumbledore paralyzing Harry. Besides protecting Harry, he obviously wanted someone from the order to witness his death at the hands of Snape, so they could report it back. He wants the order thinking Snape is evil. If The Dark Lord sees the Order being softer on Snape, insted of harsher like they would be if he had killed Dumbledore and ment to betray them all, he will know what's going on. He's not stupid.

9. Dumbledore knew that Snape killing him would make him The Dark Lord's right hand man. And always remember, "To stab someone in the back, one must be planted firmly behind them."

10. All throught the book Dumbledore is busy telling Harry "Death is just the next big adventure." and other nonsense. If Dumbledore didn't know he was dying, why so much spiritual stuff?

I'll think of more reasons later... there are just so many...

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:54 pm

Also, I doubt there is any redemption for Wormtail. He's going to kill Lupin with that silver hand, and that's that.

Draco is more likly, but not as likly to me as Snape.

Kizule

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DaxCordite

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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:03 am

Kizule

Dumbledore made him do it.

Let me start by says: I hate Snape. I also hate Dumbledore. And many of the other characters. But Dumbledore told Snape to kill him if it became nessicarry. Reasons? I've got plenty.

1. The unbreakable vow. Snape must have told Dumbledore about it. And even if he didn't, Harry did. Snape would have died if he didn't kill Dumbledore, and Dumbledore knew they needed Snape to kill The Dark Lord. Snape might not have even known what he was agreeing to when he made the vow. He might have not been let on on the secret, and wanted Bella and Narcissa to trust him more.

Harry Never mentioned the Unbreakable vow to Dumbledore. He only mentioned it to Ron. The Vow also never came up during the discussion with Draco. Infact Draco said he promised my mother when refering to Snape and Dumbledore said somethign to the effect of "I'm sure that's what he told you."

There is nothing in the books that suggest that Dumbledore knew about the unbreakable vow. Considering Snape who loathes Harry didn't seem to try to hard to expose Harry's cheating at potions with his old book it points to him keeping somethings secret from everyone.

I personally find it very clear from the way Snape spoke with Bellatrix and Narcissa that he knew what he was speaking about. Most likely Wormtail however didn't know which is why Snape was so quick to run him off.

And Snape's claim of giving up Amelia Bones sounded like the truth to me. And I"m sure Bellatrix would check up on it and I doubt she decided to die.

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2. Dumbledore was probably dying from that arm curse anyway. That's why he aranged everything that summer. He knew he was dying. He told the Dursley's off, aranged Slughorn (who could be head of house after Snape), taught Harry, and did everything one would do if they knew they were dying. And if he was already dying, why waste his death? Use it for all its worth. Make Snape seem like he's very loyal to The Dark Lord.

Except Dumbledore believes that Voldemort trust no one his comments on that were very clear. When Refering to how The deatheaters delude themselve into thinking one of them is closest to him. It seems pointless to expect jsut because Snape did what Voldemort allways expected him to do when Draco failed to kill Dumbledore for Voldemort to suddently trust Snape even more than anyone else.

And There is no proof the arm curse got no worse. IMO if Dumbledore was dying from it we'd have been seeing him get worse. Just a few comments from Harry about Dumbledore looking tired would have been enough.

Dumbledore himself seemed to confirm the Arm curse would have killed him without Snape's cure and his own skills.

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3. Dumbledore giving him the DADA position finally. We know its cursed, and Dumbledore didn't want to lose Snape as a teacher, thats why he kept denying him the post of DADA teacher. Why give it to him now? Because he wasn't going to be a Hogworts anyway at the end of the year. Dumbledore knew. He aranged it.

That's just speculation it could also be quiet simply that there was no one else for the job and after the Umbridge mess that Dumbledore would rather give it to Snape.

We don't know why DUmbledore never gave the job to Snape. It could simply be that Snape's reasoning was correct and Dumbledore didn't want to tempt him.

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4. Snape arguing with Dumbledore in the forest. Dumbledore was telling Snape to kill him and Snape was protesting. Just like when Dumbledore said "Severus, please." when Sanpe hesitated before killing him. He wanted Snape to kill him, because it would help the order.

I actually think the forest arguement is the strongest support of the Snape did on DUmbledore's order arguement. However it's entirely possible that Hagrid was right in his interpretation of what the fight was about.

I didn't see any Hesitation in Snape only that he looked at DUmbledore with what Harry saw as Revulsion and Hatred in his face. Dumbledore's pleading could have been "kill me" but it also could have been just what Harry saw it as Dumbledore pleading with Snape to help him to do the right thing to show that the trust Dumbledore showed him had been correct.

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5. The way Snape acts after Dumbledore is dead. First he tels the other Deatheaters to leave Harry alone, then he gives him dueling instrutions (rather rudly, I'll admit).

He tells them to leave him alone because Potter belongs to the Darklord. Somethign we've known since book Four that Voldemort intends to kill Harry himself.

The "Dueling instructions" as you called them could also just be someone enjoying mocking someone they dislike.

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6. What JK said. Before the book came out someone asked her, "Will there be any redeption for Snape in the sixth book?" and she said, "Funny thing you should ask that." Guilty, huh? (Those may not be the exact words, sorry)

Taking an Author's comments to try to justify future storyline details when they are avoiding answering a question really doesn't help. She obviously didn't want to spoil the ending of HBP. What will happen in the future from that isn't something anyone can know for sure.

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7. JK always redeems him, from the first book to the last. She just didn't fit his redeption in this book. Plus, Snape has had hundreds of oppertunitys to kill Harry, but he never did. In fact, he saved him several times. And those excuses he gives Bella and Narcissa seem a bit feeble to me.

His excuses make perfect sense to me.

Pre Voldemort Return he just wanted to keep his job and stay out of jail. Potter turning up dead would most likely threaten his job security.

Post Voldemort return we know that Voldemort wants to kill Harry himself and having a Double Agent in the order of the PHoenix and Hogwarts is very valuable.

Also Snape hasn't really actively tried to save Harry since the first year.

In Book two he really didn't save Harry or help in any real way.

His Actions in Book 3 for example were more about personal Revenge than saving Harry, Ron and Hermione.

In Book Four he never really saved Harry.

In book five we know he gave fake truth potion to Umbridge but that was to protect the Order and can be inturpreted as Snape protecting it to protect his information gathering for Voldemort.

We also know Snape contacted the Order of the PHoenix during the finale of Book Five. We have no idea of the time frame. IIRC We know he claimed to wait for thier return after checking on Umbridge before sending the Order to help Harry. But for all we know he could have been waiting for Harry to have escaped and waited ab it longer to give the Death Eaters time to get the Prophecy and then escape with it as the Order arrived. Keeping his cover and ensuring that he appeared loyal to the Order still but allowing the Darklord to get what he wanted.

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8. Dumbledore paralyzing Harry. Besides protecting Harry, he obviously wanted someone from the order to witness his death at the hands of Snape, so they could report it back. He wants the order thinking Snape is evil. If The Dark Lord sees the Order being softer on Snape, insted of harsher like they would be if he had killed Dumbledore and ment to betray them all, he will know what's going on. He's not stupid.

Snape isn't really any Threat to the Darklord unless he knows about the Horcruxes and I really can't see Dumbledore giving that information to anyone other than Harry and threw him Hermione and Ron.

Snape suddenly being back a full time Deatheater doesn't really help matters at all. He'll be killing and maiming Muggles by the handfull to keep his cover and that is something Dumbledore would never allow for the sake of keeping Snape's cover.

Also Dumbledore never knew that this night would be the night of his death. He didn't know Draco had finished what he was doing because Harry never mentioned it. Finding otu Snape is the reason his parents were dead made Harry so angry he never mentioned learning Malfoy had succeeded to Dumbledore.

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9. Dumbledore knew that Snape killing him would make him The Dark Lord's right hand man. And always remember, "To stab someone in the back, one must be planted firmly behind them."

And Dumbledore also knows as he says quiet clearly that Voldemort trust No one. That anyone who thinks they are the darklord's right hand man is delusional. They are all just pawns to him.

Snape's new glory in the Deatheater camp really isn't going to help him find Voldemort's Horcruxes even if he knows of them. I doubt someone like Voldemort is running around saying all his Deatheater pals where he's hidden those precious pieces of his soul.

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10. All throught the book Dumbledore is busy telling Harry "Death is just the next big adventure." and other nonsense. If Dumbledore didn't know he was dying, why so much spiritual stuff?

Dumblore has said such stuff since the very begining of the series. He's attempting to make Harry the opposit of Voldemort who clings to life as if it's the only thing that matters.

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I'll think of more reasons later... there are just so many...

You can make a case for Dumbledore having ordered Snape to kill him but there is no way to prove it.

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Also, I doubt there is any redemption for Wormtail. He's going to kill Lupin with that silver hand, and that's that.

Draco is more likly, but not as likly to me as Snape.

We've actually never had anything in Canon saying that Werewolves can be killed by Silver or harmed by it. Lupin also drank out of a Silver goblet in Order of the PHoenix. I suppose you could argue that it was fake silver while everyone else had real silver.

Infact if Silver kept Werewolves away wouldn't wizards it around the doors and windows of thier houses with folks like Greyback out there.

IMO Draco is the most likely to be redeemed of any of them for the simple fact he like Regulus Black got into something he didn't really understand until it was too late.

Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:39 am

Eeeevil....Eeeevil..... eeeeevil hes pure evil for short

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tobeychild1

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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:16 am

I don't think that Snape is reall evil...and I don't think Dumbledore is dead. I think that Snape is truly working for Dumbledore and Dumbledore's death was just a hoax. If you go here I think you will agree with me: http://www.dumbledoreisnotdead.com/introduction.html

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:20 am

Tifagirl

I think He is dead. The picture of him came. And that means he is dead. People get over it. He never helped in the first place. He had to get harry to even get slughorn to start teaching again. What did he even do for Harry. He gave harry to the Dursleys for crying out loud.

Who do you think is dead? Dumbledore? Just because you have a picture of yourself doesn't mean you're dead. Glidery Lockheart (I'm not sure how to spell that) had pictures of himself all over the place.

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non642

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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:01 pm

I don't remember correctly and I don't have my books with me so could someone answer a question for me?
Do the portraits appear for past headmasters or headmasters who have passed away?
If it is just past headmasters, the portrait proves nothing about Dumbledore's death, just that he has given up the title of headmaster (which he would have to do if he faked his own death.

That being said, in my personal opinion I do believe that Dumbledore is dead. He was hit with the curse, there was a burial. I think a lot of the theories being presented to the contrary are stretches of wishful thinking.

On the topic of whether or not Snape thinks Harry is a powerful wizard:
I think that Snape does recognize that Harry has great potential (though not in potions). He isn't a skilled wizard perhaps, but he is not a weakling. While he may dislike Harry, Snape also recognizes the fact that Harry is a skilled flyer and can produce advanced spells like a coporeal patronus. Furthermore, Harry is one of those wizards that can do things without a wand (as we saw in Philosopher's Stone) and I wouldn't be surprised if Snape is aware of this fact (Dumbledore is likely aware of it and so I think Snape could have found out too).

On redeemable characters:
Snape: I am undecided about Snape but am leaning more towards the side that there was more to his actions than merely being a traitor working for the dark lord. I want to trust him based on Dumbledore's faith in him....of course Dumbledore's trust could be considered his tragic flaw. I also think that Dumbledore's begging could have been so Snape would kill him. It was a way to save Snape and Draco.

Wormtail: I don't think Wormtail will be redeemed. I think that he lacks the will power to defy his master. Plus since the evil side seems to be gaining power he won't want to switch sides since he goes where the power is. My guess is that he will be killed in a battle. I don't think he will kill Lupin, or if he does I don't think it will be because of the silver hand. Silver bullets kill werewolves (at least in pop culture) so he would have to shoot or stab him with his hand. I don't think his arm has ever been described as stronger so I don't see that happening. As has been mentionned, in Book 5 it is specifically mentioned that Lupin drinks out of a silver goblet so the mere presense and contact with silver does not cause him harm. I kind of see Lupin killing Wormtail actually. Or they will kill each other in a climatic scene.

Draco: I think Draco will be redeemed. I don't think he will become a good person or a hero, but his situation is one that has spun out of control and I think working for the Dark Lord is not turning out the way he suspected. Harry's agreement that Draco is not evil also makes me think that Draco will be redeemed.

Percy: here's a character that hasn't been mentionned, but goes in this category for me. I was disappointed he wasn't much mentionned in the last book. He's not evil (as far as we know anyways) but I wonder if he will redeem himself to his family.

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:30 pm

Nialla

I don't remember correctly and I don't have my books with me so could someone answer a question for me?
Do the portraits appear for past headmasters or headmasters who have passed away?
If it is just past headmasters, the portrait proves nothing about Dumbledore's death, just that he has given up the title of headmaster (which he would have to do if he faked his own death.

Every Headmaster portrait we've seen has been a dead headmaster so I doubt it appears just when they've been sacked or left. After all Dumbledore was removed twice before and we were never shown a portrait of him there.

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On the topic of whether or not Snape thinks Harry is a powerful wizard:
I think that Snape does recognize that Harry has great potential (though not in potions). He isn't a skilled wizard perhaps, but he is not a weakling. While he may dislike Harry, Snape also recognizes the fact that Harry is a skilled flyer and can produce advanced spells like a coporeal patronus. Furthermore, Harry is one of those wizards that can do things without a wand (as we saw in Philosopher's Stone) and I wouldn't be surprised if Snape is aware of this fact (Dumbledore is likely aware of it and so I think Snape could have found out too).

Actually all Wizard kids cause magic to happen as Harry did. It's how the Ministry finds Muggleborns according to Rowling. It's a natural ability that requires training that's why magical schools like Hogwarts exist. Wandless magic has been shown to happen at times of great emotional stress.

The only two characters shown to use it without being extremely emotional are Dumbledore(Several times) and Lupin(on the train in book three). Most likely like silent Incantations is a skill that takes time and effort.

Harry is skilled in Defense against the Dark Arts however I doubt Snape is that impressed with him. Snape allows his prejudices to blind him he ignores Hermione even though she's the best in the year at Potions because of his dislike of Muggleborns.

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On redeemable characters:
Snape: I am undecided about Snape but am leaning more towards the side that there was more to his actions than merely being a traitor working for the dark lord. I want to trust him based on Dumbledore's faith in him....of course Dumbledore's trust could be considered his tragic flaw. I also think that Dumbledore's begging could have been so Snape would kill him. It was a way to save Snape and Draco.

I still have trouble buying that DUmbledore would die to send Snape back full time to the Deatheaters. No one else in the order will trust him so he can't do them any good and wiht the Deatheaters even if he were just acting he'd do more harm than good. I doubt the Deatheaters would ignore it if he suddenly started sitting out of the muggle torture.

My main problem with the Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders theroy is there has never been a satisfactory explanation for why Dumbledore would do it. All of the explanations folks come up with involve Snape needing to be placed higher in the Darklords esteem or Dumbledore's life allready about to end.

Neither really works with what we know of Voldemort and DUmbledore. IMO if Dumbledore was dying he'd be doing all in his power to prepare for it and leave as much groundwork as possible in the defeat of Voldemort. Which IMO would be alot more than just rehiring slughorn and arranging his death with snape.

Placing Snape higher doens't work since we know from Canon that Voldemort trust no one really.

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Wormtail: I don't think Wormtail will be redeemed. I think that he lacks the will power to defy his master. Plus since the evil side seems to be gaining power he won't want to switch sides since he goes where the power is. My guess is that he will be killed in a battle. I don't think he will kill Lupin, or if he does I don't think it will be because of the silver hand. Silver bullets kill werewolves (at least in pop culture) so he would have to shoot or stab him with his hand. I don't think his arm has ever been described as stronger so I don't see that happening. As has been mentionned, in Book 5 it is specifically mentioned that Lupin drinks out of a silver goblet so the mere presense and contact with silver does not cause him harm. I kind of see Lupin killing Wormtail actually. Or they will kill each other in a climatic scene.

Wormtail IMO could go either way if Wormtail is redeemed I doubt it'll be anything like him choosing to do good for it's own reasons more or less it'll be him having no choice but to do the right thing. Maybe him displeasing Voldemort too severely and being forced to go crawling back to the good side to save his hide.

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Draco: I think Draco will be redeemed. I don't think he will become a good person or a hero, but his situation is one that has spun out of control and I think working for the Dark Lord is not turning out the way he suspected. Harry's agreement that Draco is not evil also makes me think that Draco will be redeemed.

I agree Draco IMO will still be an arrogant racist snob but he won't be totally evil and will most likely be redeemed somewhat.

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Percy: here's a character that hasn't been mentionned, but goes in this category for me. I was disappointed he wasn't much mentionned in the last book. He's not evil (as far as we know anyways) but I wonder if he will redeem himself to his family.

That's an interesting question honestly Percy is one who could go either way. I dont' mean go evil I just mean rather or not he'll be brought back into the family fold.

DaxCordite

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non642

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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:14 pm

DaxCordite

I still have trouble buying that DUmbledore would die to send Snape back full time to the Deatheaters. No one else in the order will trust him so he can't do them any good and wiht the Deatheaters even if he were just acting he'd do more harm than good. I doubt the Deatheaters would ignore it if he suddenly started sitting out of the muggle torture.

My main problem with the Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders theroy is there has never been a satisfactory explanation for why Dumbledore would do it. All of the explanations folks come up with involve Snape needing to be placed higher in the Darklords esteem or Dumbledore's life allready about to end.

Neither really works with what we know of Voldemort and DUmbledore. IMO if Dumbledore was dying he'd be doing all in his power to prepare for it and leave as much groundwork as possible in the defeat of Voldemort. Which IMO would be alot more than just rehiring slughorn and arranging his death with snape.

Placing Snape higher doens't work since we know from Canon that Voldemort trust no one really.

I don't buy the whole needing Snape higher either. While it would allow Snape to gain more information it would also make him someone the Dark Lord notices, if not trusts. This would make it harder for him to move back and forth between the Deatheaters and the Order so this does not seem like a good strategy.

Keeping his placement with the Deatheaters in general may be helpful. Especially if he can at least be aware of the movements of other villains and discover who is being recruited. It is true that the Order no longer trusts him so that this ability is now irrelevant, however Dumbledore may have trusted in the Order to trust his judgement in Snape and so the fact that Snape is now at odds with the Order does not necessarily mean that he was at odds with DUmbledore.

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Percy: here's a character that hasn't been mentionned, but goes in this category for me. I was disappointed he wasn't much mentionned in the last book. He's not evil (as far as we know anyways) but I wonder if he will redeem himself to his family.

That's an interesting question honestly Percy is one who could go either way. I dont' mean go evil I just mean rather or not he'll be brought back into the family fold.

One of my old theories before the last book came out would be that he would turn evil. He is the sort of character who would be slowly seduced to the Dark side without realizing it. I don't really think this is likely as I would have guessed that something like this would be covered in more than one book.
Now I think that Percy will have to perform some completely selfless act in order to be accpeted by his brothers. I think this is possible if they are actually in danger and Percy sees this outright.

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