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 Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:36 pm
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Quote: 5) Ahh... The Leo... One of Wing's most misunderstood points... Luckily, I happen to have something to counteract just about any point made against the Leo. First off, it's importan to know that the Leo Mobile Suit is 20 years old, whereas those Gundams in Wing are brand new. Yeah, that's right. The Leo was made around the time of AC 175, not AC 195 when the show starts (For comparison, the Zaku I was a few years old as well - but the Zaku II is what was used majorly throughout the OYW. And the GINN seems rather new, really). For a real world comparison that actually uses equivalent technology, we needn't look at the military, but at video games. In 1985, The NES was released in the US. In 2005, the Xbox 360 was released in the US. 20 years apart, and do you honestly think that the NES stands a chance against Microsoft's giant when comparing mechanical statistics? No. Same with the Leo. Another thing of note is that the Leo was made for crowd control, not MS combat. The fact that the Leo doesn't move all that fast attests to that, as well as the fact that there is no backpack boosters on the Leo. That's right - whereas the Zaku I and GINN had boosters built into the back pack, the Leo had none. Not even a 'backpack.' What was there, you ask? An escape hatch (please, no jokes). The closest thing that the Leo got was those 3 thrusters on it's skirt armour - and those don't fuly count because you need the Space Leo pack to control it in space and it's never used on the ground (Presumably because it can't provide the needed thrust to get off the ground). Oddly enough, though, the Leos have better weaponry than those aforementioned suits. See, the Zaku and GINN are both stuck with physical weaponry, which is near-useless against the Gundams of their time. While the Leo DOES have that (the Leo Machinegun, a barely-shown bazooka and Dobergun, of course), it's also got beam weaponry: The Beam Pistol was used by Lady Une (and even on the Mercurius), and there was even a beam rifle that was considered standard equipment. And let's not forget the Beam Cannon that was used in the early opening narration sequences (yet completely ignored in the animation) that can take out an escaping shuttle with a single shot. Additional... There's actually another weapon worth noting. There's a Leo Commander type - seen only in episode 1. It has shoulder-mounted Beam Guns. This is actually an official variant to the Leo - and shoulder-mounted beam weaponry puts it heads above any similar competition. Oh, and when the Zaku has a heated physical weapon (Heat Hawk) made to cleave and slice with some resistance, and the GINN had a sword made for crushing suits, the Leo itself has actual Beam Sabers. Before I finish, it's also important to note that where ZAFT and the Zeon had to make different suits for different environments, the Leo has different packs to let it be used in those environments. The Space Leo pack, of course, allows it to be used in space - and a booster pack (which looks a lot like the Jet pack in Seed Destiny) allows it to replace the Aries in the air. Granted, there's no water-based pack, but the Cancer and Pices take care of that. Finally, the Leos are able to go up against the Virgos and Tauruses of Wing. That's like a Hi-Zack from Zeta going up against the Crossbone Vanguard's Den'an Zon (Beam weapons, Beam Shielding, ect...) and being able to survive. I think that the apropriate phrase is.... "Next?"
A very good argument. I haven't seen very many that are as good as that one in defence of the OZ-06MS Leo. To be honest, I find the Leo to be one of the most intriguing Mobile Suits in all of Gundam, and I am always happy when someone else sees it as something more than cannon fodder. 3nodding |
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Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:46 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:03 pm
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Sorry for the wait, I've been rather busy irl. Just to make sure you know it's up, I plan to send a PM right after posting. Don't feel the need to PM me back once you've responded, as I check up on the guild each time I log on (which unfortunately isn't saying much, this week before Christmas break).
EDIT:
Gaia being ******** class="quoted">Database Error Could not insert Private Message metadata into database.
Yeeaaaaaah. I'd think they'd have it fixed, something like a week after that maintenance. rolleyes
NewtypeS3 1) I actually don't remember this happening - any space-based adventures generally had characters with the Wing equivalent of Normal Suits, the Astro Suit. Care to name the character, episode or anything so I can actually bother with this so-called 'fact?'
Uh, zechs? Final battle. This ringing any bells? Of course, even if I'm mistaken and he did in fact have a normal suit, as well as a helmet, that still wouldn't explain him surviving a reactor explosion with his proximity to it.
NewtypeS3 2) So, being hurled away from the cockpit... landing headfirst... losting most of one's blood... and being in a coma for a month as a result, and recovering for the next several weeks to another month... isn't realistic enough for you in a show that has gigantic humanoid robots running about in it?
Not just being hurled, being victim to an explosion, then being flung off it by that explosion. How high was it that he fell from, onto his head, btw? Something like 8 meters, half the height of the suit? Roughly 26 feet down, onto his head as you said, following an explosion. And he's given medical attention how long after it happens? And he survives? Maybe he'd survive, with crippling brain damage (that's a VERY generous maybe).
Also, please explain to me how the existence of humanoid robots increases the durability of a human. The existence of giant robots in no way means you can give people superhuman abilities.
NewtypeS3 3) The Peacemillion was explained in the Episode Zero manga - it was constructed by both Howard and old Mushroom head, Professor G; better known as the man who constructed Deathscythe.
I'd like some proof on this one, as no winger has ever claimed that before when it's been brought up, even when they're read that manga. Also, in what time period and how long did it take them to construct this? What were the circumstances, and how did they manage to construct such an enormous thing? Where did they find the manpower for such an undertaking? More details, please.
NewtypeS3 4) First off, they weren't JAGGED rocks. Aside from that, sure it's unlikely
How far up was he, would you say, and about how long do you think he was in the air? It'd be really great if someone could find a screenshot of the height for me, though, as I can't find any from any sites I use for 'em.
NewtypeS3 Heero's not setting his ankle. He's resetting the bone - his leg snapped, not the ankle. That's why he's using the wrench as a makeshift splint and attaching it to his leg with adhesive tape of some sort. 'Sides, Heero didn't actually walk away. If you paid attention, you'd see that Heero was leaning heavily on the unboken leg and actually accepted help from Duo (even leaning on the braided pilot)... going so far as to not even use his broken leg while they hobbled away.
Oh, alright. So it wasn't just an injury that he could pop back in, as unreasonable as that would be on its own...it was instead that his leg actually snapped, and then he set the bone himself and then was actually able to move, although not far, using that leg. Alright, now I understand. That's perfectly reasonable, right? I mean...magical training totally allowed him to survive the fall with only that injury, set the bone himself, then actually walk a short distance with it. Ah well, at least he didn't fall on his head this time.
NewtypeS3 5) Ahh... The Leo... One of Wing's most misunderstood points... Luckily, I happen to have something to counteract just about any point made against the Leo.
Ironic that you use the word misunderstood, when you've clearly misinterpreted the point behind my statement. Thus, most of my responses to this section are just going to be caustic little jabs as most of the information you're giving is pretty irrelevant to the actual point.
Although I felt it was obvious enough, I'll try and clear away any possible obfuscation anyways.
I was saying that it is unrealistic for the pilots themselves to have such little skill, when they are trained soldiers. By citing things like the abilities of the leos in a positive light and their accomplishments against other suits, you're simply aiding my point greatly.
NewtypeS3 First off, it's importan to know that the Leo Mobile Suit is 20 years old, whereas those Gundams in Wing are brand new. Yeah, that's right. The Leo was made around the time of AC 175, not AC 195 when the show starts (For comparison, the Zaku I was a few years old as well - but the Zaku II is what was used majorly throughout the OYW. And the GINN seems rather new, really).
Pretty irrelevant to my point, and I can't turn this one against you as easily as I can with some others so I don't plan to bother with it.
NewtypeS3 For a real world comparison that actually uses equivalent technology, we needn't look at the military, but at video games. In 1985, The NES was released in the US. In 2005, the Xbox 360 was released in the US. 20 years apart, and do you honestly think that the NES stands a chance against Microsoft's giant when comparing mechanical statistics? No. Same with the Leo.
NewtypeS3 Finally, the Leos are able to go up against the Virgos and Tauruses of Wing. That's like a Hi-Zack from Zeta going up against the Crossbone Vanguard's Den'an Zon (Beam weapons, Beam Shielding, ect...) and being able to survive.
Exactly how old are the tauruses and virgos of wing, as of the start of the series? According to MAHQ, the taurus was first deployed in AC 195, same as the virgo. And seeing as, to my recollection, the virgo was only used later in the series, it was indeed created with the technology of that time? The whole shielding thing seemed to be based on the mercurius, and the cannon was based on the vayeate's. So yeah, the virgo was created in 195, giving 20 years in between. The leo apparently, as you claim, was able to "go up against" these virgos, thus nullifying your irrelevant analogy anyways, as well as showing that wing only gives pilots skill when it's good for the plot.
NewtypeS3 Another thing of note is that the Leo was made for crowd control, not MS combat. The fact that the Leo doesn't move all that fast attests to that, as well as the fact that there is no backpack boosters on the Leo.
What crowd control suit isn't complete without a beam rifle or a beam saber? And why, exactly, is crowd control equipment (the mobile suit itself) being used for war in the first place? And how can they combat tauruses or virgos?
NewtypeS3 That's right - whereas the Zaku I and GINN had boosters built into the back pack, the Leo had none. Not even a 'backpack.'
Yet they can take on tauruses and virgos? Wow, these guys must be skilled!
Just look at how well they fare against the Gundams!
NewtypeS3 What was there, you ask? An escape hatch (please, no jokes).
I don't think I even NEED to make a joke.
NewtypeS3 The closest thing that the Leo got was those 3 thrusters on it's skirt armour - and those don't fuly count because you need the Space Leo pack to control it in space and it's never used on the ground (Presumably because it can't provide the needed thrust to get off the ground).
Yet they can take on tauruses and virgos? Wow, these guys must be skilled!
Just look at how well they fare against the Gundams!
NewtypeS3 See, the Zaku and GINN are both stuck with physical weaponry, which is near-useless against the Gundams of their time.
Beam sabers are the same way in wing, against the magical Gundams, unless of course plot dictates damage be done with them. Remember Alaska, the beam saber acting as a bludgeon? I'll talk a bit more about this later.
NewtypeS3 While the Leo DOES have that (the Leo Machinegun, a barely-shown bazooka and Dobergun, of course), it's also got beam weaponry: The Beam Pistol was used by Lady Une (and even on the Mercurius), and there was even a beam rifle that was considered standard equipment. And let's not forget the Beam Cannon that was used in the early opening narration sequences (yet completely ignored in the animation) that can take out an escaping shuttle with a single shot. Additional... There's actually another weapon worth noting. There's a Leo Commander type - seen only in episode 1. It has shoulder-mounted Beam Guns. This is actually an official variant to the Leo - and shoulder-mounted beam weaponry puts it heads above any similar competition. Oh, and when the Zaku has a heated physical weapon (Heat Hawk) made to cleave and slice with some resistance, and the GINN had a sword made for crushing suits, the Leo itself has actual Beam Sabers.
What crowd control suit isn't complete without a beam rifle or a beam saber? Hell, let's throw the "Shuttle Killer 5000" on there as well. If only Yzak was in wing. As much as I dislike him, I wouldn't mind seeing him beat the s**t out of the wing pilots in or out of MS combat. I'd find it quite entertaining if he were to mistake wing for a shuttle.
NewtypeS3 Before I finish, it's also important to note that where ZAFT and the Zeon had to make different suits for different environments, the Leo has different packs to let it be used in those environments. The Space Leo pack, of course, allows it to be used in space - and a booster pack (which looks a lot like the Jet pack in Seed Destiny) allows it to replace the Aries in the air. Granted, there's no water-based pack, but the Cancer and Pices take care of that.
What crowd control suit DOESN'T need air superiority and the ability to function in space?
Now were they actually originally created with these, or did the retards just slap them onto the leos instead of developing new weaponry, as I assume they did with the shuttle killer 5000 and all the other beam weaponry which would be ******** insane for use on a crowd control suit?
NewtypeS3 Finally, the Leos are able to go up against the Virgos and Tauruses of Wing. That's like a Hi-Zack from Zeta going up against the Crossbone Vanguard's Den'an Zon (Beam weapons, Beam Shielding, ect...) and being able to survive.
This is definitely my favorite part of your response. You're actually helping my argument with this one. How can the leos go up against the virgos and tauruses, yet be so completely crushed by single Gundams? An even more direct comparison would be the leos' performance against Gundams to the performance of a leo against a Gundam with heero piloting the leo. Thus, I ask you...how can trained soldiers, so many of them, suck so hard at one point, yet kick so much a** at another? How is that, in any way, realistic?
NewtypeS3 I think that the apropriate phrase is.... "Next?"
If only you'd actually addressed the real point, instead of shooting yourself in the foot several times only to have me stomp on your feet afterwards. Then maybe you'd have a right to say that. lol
NewtypeS3 Ok, sure. Thanks for your overly sarcastic input, oh lord of this guild.
Are you inferring, now, that I use my position tyranically? Or just that I use my position to try and exert control over others? Such stupidly brazen words from someone who's just joined, if that is indeed what you're getting at.
My bashing wing (which I haven't done in a long time, as you can clearly see by my posts; you can't act like the catalyst for a situation, then expect people to stop bashing) and my acting as Captain of this guild are two things independent of eachother, my allowing wingers to join is pretty obvious proof of that. Of course, I may not know some of them are wingers? If I wanted to, I could simply ban them as soon as I found out. Have I? OH SHI- No, I have not.
NewtypeS3 Care to explain the Minovski Particle? If Gundam is realistic to you, then explain how a bunch of Helium-3 can block pretty much everything required in the current battlefield - from radar right down to radio waves.
Nationmaster.com In UC 0065 the Minovsky Physics Society, while working on the reactor, encounter a strange electromagnetic wave effect within the Minovsky-Ionesco reactor that could not be explained by conventional physics. Within the next few years, they identify the cause: a new elementary particle generated by the helium-3 reaction on the inner wall of the reactor, which was named the Minovsky particle or "M" particle. The Minovsky particle has near-zero rest mass - though, like any particle, its mass increases to reflect its potential or kinetic energy - and can carry either a positive or negative electrical charge. When scattered in open space or in the air, the repulsive forces between charged Minovsky particles cause them to spontaneously align into a regular cubic lattice structure called an I-field. An I-Field lattice will slowly expand and scatter into space, however, this will take approximately 29 days before the region can retain normal electromagnetic communication again. Electromagnetism is the physics of the electromagnetic field: a field, encompassing all of space, composed of the electric field and the magnetic field. ... Potential energy is stored energy. ... Kinetic energy is energy that a body has as a result of its speed. ... However, the main use of the "M" particle came into combat and communication. When the Minovsky particle is spread in large amount in the open air or in open space, the particle disrupt low-frequency electromagnetic radiation, such as microwaves and radio waves. The "M" particle also interferes with the operations of electronic circuitry and destroys unprotected ones due to their high electrical charge which act like a continuous Electromagnetic Pulse on metal objects. Because of the way Minovsky particles react with those particle types of radiations, radar systems and long-range wireless communication systems became useless, infra-red signals are defracted and decreases accuracy and visible light is fogged. This became known as the "Minovsky Effect". In telecommunications and warfare, the term electromagnetic pulse (EMP) has the following meanings: The electromagnetic radiation from an explosion (especially nuclear explosions) or an intensely fluctuating magnetic field caused by Compton-recoil electrons and photoelectrons from photons scattered in the materials of the electronic or explosive device or in a... The disruption of electromagnetic radiation is due to the small lattice of the I-Field creates fringes that long wave length waves cannot penetrate, and defracts wave lengths that have similar distance with the fringes. This Polarization process disrupts the electromagnetic waves. Notice in real life there is a similar experimental particle that could do the same thing in few thousandth of a second, which is still not practical but proves the theory to be correct. A second utility of the I-field (and Minovsky particles in general) is the repulsion of charged plasma and chargeless Mega particles from an I-field surface, which was of use both in power generation and armament technology. If controlled, the particles can form fringes of different widths and further interfere with electromagnetic waves of shorter wave lengths, this provide the basics of the minimizing of fusion reactors installed in Mobile Suits since a controlled I-Field can block the infra-red waves from the high temperature from the thermonuclear reaction and reduces the need of coolant and such for the fusion reactors. This article treats polarization in electrodynamics. ... The only counter measure of the "M" particle was to install bulky and expensive shielding on all electronic equipment, but only to counteract the effect it had on electronic circuitry. While this could be done for space ships and naval ships, this ruled out the use of precision guided weapons, such as guided missiles. Due to this, the military use of Minovsky particles ushers in a new era of close-range combat. This is the primary reason for the birth of the Zeon close-combat weapon: the mobile suit.
I'll do further research on the subject, if this does not satisfy you; I'd say it's thorough enough.
This also leads into one of my questions about wing I'll ask later on, since this is clearly what prompted the UC creation of mobile suits.
I was under the impression that all Gundam series involved in this current discussion had MS. Thus making this point completely irrelevant in discussion of proportionate realism.
Sorry to shoot down what you clearly thought was a clever tactic. biggrin
NewtypeS3 Hell, newtypes. NEWTYPES. I'm not against the idea of 'human evolution' as presented in Gundam... much less the way they're presented in Gundam X... but is there a way you can explain the mumbo-jumbo that Newtypes have done in a realistic sense without going generally insane?
Exactly how would there be set rules as to how realistic psychic powers are? As there are no known psychics that can prove they're psychic, in our world, we cannot judge the realism of the concept of what a psychic is when found in fiction; the concept of a psychic's powers is beyond our own understanding. Just because it can't be explained doesn't mean it isn't possible. For instance, did the Earth rotating around the sun seem realistic to people in the past? No, it did not, because it was something they couldn't comprehend or explain.
But hell, the fact that they say the NT is humanity's "evolution" makes it pretty much impossible to call it unrealistic. Through adapation to one's environment, so much is possible, as clearly shown in the transition from water to land. When considering the fact that we, humanity as we currently are, only use something like 10-20% of our brainpower and can do this much leaves so many possibilities for the development of humanity. The journey into space could've kickstarted the evolution of humanity which had been stagnating for so long, shot it into overdrive and literally forced the evolution in some cases. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be evolution. The change of environment could've simply awoken the dormant and inactive portions of the brain, which could've been capable of NT feats from the very beginning. wink
So yeah, it could possibly drive someone insane trying to figure out something like this if they really tried to.
Since I've already taken care of defending those 3, I'll just be a sarcastic badass on the next point. Since you love my sarcasm oh-so-much. cool
NewtypeS3 So, yeah, the three main bases of the UC universe - Mobile Suits, The M-Particle, and Newtypes - are pretty damn unrealistic.
As opposed to wing's what?
Main characters never die (unless it's suicide), magical armor, PLOTSHIELD!, stereotype characters (I really shouldn't need to go into this one; the five main characters are the personification, each of them, of a different perspective of war), yay explosions, and "kawaii bishies" (as fangirls so often call them).
NewtypeS3 For one, in the original Mobile Suit Gundam, Amuro pilots the Gundam. It's well-known, of course, that he was a civilian - and the son of the designer. Now, the Gundam is a military project - and is top-secret. The fact that Amuro is able to leap into the Gundam with the manual, flip through the manual, and then take down 2 mobile suits isn't exactly realistic. Sure, the first Zaku wasn't a good kill - but the second one required a precision stab through the cockpit of the Zaku.
Amuro, obviously, has previous technical experience. He built his own Haro, if I remember correctly. I also recall, although without the source, that someone had once said in canon that "a newtype could get into a machine and automatically understand how it works". I believe this is from F91, Zeta, or ZZ. I don't really remember which, but I'm quite sure I've heard it before within a canon series. Also, he had found the manual beforehand and read briefly through it already. He had further looked through it while in the Gundam itself. Given that he is a NT, and thus highly-adept with mobile suits and such, I would consider his performance reasonable when combined with the fact that he had the manual with him. The increased spatial awareness and reaction time of a newtype is also clearly the reason behind Amuro's ability to make a precision attack.
NewtypeS3 And, later on, Amuro is kept on as the pilot of the Gundam - when there's Ryu right nearby, who is an actual pilot assigned to the White Base.
If I'm not mistaken, Ryu only had simulator experience. Being a pilot "officially assigned" to a ship does not make you a better pilot than anyone who's not an "official" pilot. And with Amuro going toe-to-toe with Char, one of Zeon's top aces of the time, I can't really blame Bright for allowing Amuro to continue piloting the Gundam. Sometimes, in desparate situations as the WB was in, it is better to neglect traditional officiality and instead rely on people with the skill that can keep you and your comrades alive. Knowing when to make these kinds of decisions is what makes a good commander. And from Amuro's growth as a pilot, we can see that he'd obviously made the right choice.
NewtypeS3 What gets even worse is that Amuro isn't relieved of his duties as pilot even after the White Base reaches Luna 2 - where many, many pilots were at who could have taken Amuro's place.
Have you completely forgotten the circumstances of Luna II, or am I just imagining that basically the entire WB crew had been thrown in the brig as criminals, Amuro was nearly shot, and the guy had almost left them all there to die. Can you be so naive as to believe that he would willingly give up someone skilled enough to pilot the Gundam, an entirely new machine, who would therefore be in short supply, after he'd acted like that towards the WB crew? Furthermore, we don't even have proof that there was anyone capable of piloting it, when I would assume, reasonably, that controlling the Gundam is radically different when compared to piloting the Earth Federation's previous vehicles. And you can go "lol butt look at how easee it am fer amuro to cuntrol!", or something along those lines, but you have to keep in mind that Amuro is a newtype, and he had no prior experience with a different kind of control system which he would have to change from.
So...there was no way the guy would give up any pilots to WB, and there wasn't even any guarantee that anyone could handle it as well as Amuro had.
NewtypeS3 This isn't even mentioning Bright's akward obscession with Judau in ZZ,
Pretty obvious to me he saw him as the second coming of Amuro, and he most likely felt guilty about what had happened with Amuro after the war (the whole quarantinish setup). At least, that's what I got from it. Of course, when it comes to a character's motivation, it's all up to the writers what the reality of them will be. But any possible motivation that would explain his actions would negate any point you can make on it about how there's no reasoning behind it.
NewtypeS3 Amuro's constant paranoia (which turns into reality, strangely enough) throughout the UC
Newtype powers are, basically, psychic powers. Precognition is a very well-known psychic power.
I'm sorry, but at this point I'm just going to be blunt:
Work on your reading comprehension; first the leo thing where you shoot yourself in the foot continually then jump around in joy thinking you made a point (as evidenced by your "LOLNEXT [AM I COOL NOW?]" comment, and now this).
Have I not made it clear, through my "sarcastic" response, that there are varying levels of realism? Everything is not black and white. I'd think you'd understand my point, after picking up on the sarcasm, but apparently you did not. Let's hope you pick up on that this time...?
NewtypeS3 I give them credit for slipping in things that Super Robot shows (of which Gundam took life from) never did - like having mains die...
Can't say the same for wing, outside of treize (which I would consider suicide).
NewtypeS3 However, claiming that Gundam IS realistic is also just plain avoiding the facts.
Just as missing my obvious point of there being different levels of realism, and misinterpreting my point on the leo thing, IS just stupid.
Now it's time for my turn. Of course, this is only stuff I can vaguely remember from wing back when I watched it oh-so-long ago. Additionally, whereas I've only got one series and can come up with all this, you've got an entire timeline to pluck from.
Alright, so wufei preaches about honor in battle, blah blah blah, kills a bunch of soldiers in their sleep, then he's let go by the people whose soldiers he killed. "Well, hey, I'm sure it was just a big misunderstanding! This kid will never do anything like that ever again, LOL." You can whine about things like them allowing Amuro to continue piloting all you want, but there's far more militaristic retardation in wing.
The wing Gundam's shitty self-destruct. What, did they cram some firecrackers in the arm in head? The entire point of a self-destruct is to make it impossible to rebuild. It was rebuilt. Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this? I've had past wingers suggest that the scientists disabled them or lessened them, but that's bullshit. They wouldn't do something that would be basically handing over technology to their enemy.
The entire zechs thing is such a blatant ripoff of Char it's not even funny. At least they didn't make Klueze the orphaned child of some ruler or politician, give him a long-lost female sibling, have them "fight" on opposite ******** it, I'm not even going any further.
I believe heero cuts epyon's arm off with a beam saber, yes? The same type of weapon which was used as a bludgeon in Alaska, was it? Now, I'd understand if heero's beam saber was like epyon's and it did that. There's an obvious difference in the strength of the weaponry, there.
The sandrock Gundam. Nothing but close combat weaponry. It's not even a speed-based MS. Why are they taking a Gundam that by all rights shouldn't be able to function alone, and sending it out alone? OH SHI- I forgot the plotshield and magic armor. If I was him, I'd simply walk around the battlefields taking all kinds of enemy fire, casually walking up to enemy mobile suits and slicing them in half. They can't dodge, since I'm a main character, so there's no need to rush! The same problem is found in deathscythe, which is literally devoid of any long range weaponry.
That shitty little kid, quatre. Why is someone so against war fighting? What kind of ******** retards would send an indecisive pacifist out onto a battlefield? I've heard a phrase before, and I think it fits pretty well here. "Fighting for peace is like ******** for virginity". Now of course, this is going to open up all kinds of philosophical tangents, but I'm ready for that. After all, only a retard would think that a species like ours which thrives upon conflict would ever change. That's one thing I DID like about Destiny, the entire LOGOS aspect of it.
The previous point leads to the worst aspect of wing. Magical happy peace. Annihilating borders. So much idealistic bullshit. There is no way in hell humanity will ever achieve peace as we thrive on conflict, and the disintegration of all borders would just cause huge disputes between rival ethnicities and nations. This crap isn't just unrealistic, it's downright stupid.
Correct me if I'm wrong on this one, as I'm not completely sure: All the magunacs, none of them died, right? How is that realistic? Idealizing war is ******** disgusting. In war there is death, not just on the bad guy's side.
In space battles, the majority of the time, there is no wreckage left behind after their destruction. I guess wing doesn't go by the laws of conservation of matter and energy.
They were going down to Earth in what was supposed to be secret, right? The main character, heero, got caught before he even made it through the atmosphere. After making it down they're supposed to fight separately to achieve their goals. Within a few episodes, several of them have already met up if I remember correctly. Nice choices, colonists! Not only can they not successfully carry out their orders when they're actually trying, but they'll go as far as to disobey them outright! And what the hell did they plan to do with just the Gundams down on Earth? How the hell did they plan to follow it up?
Supposedly, the scientists had trained the pilots? Since when did scientists, people that would have to be extremely dedicated to their craft to come up with these magic Gundams, have the time or experience to train people in tactics and warfare?
Didn't they torpedo the Gundams early on in the series, and hadn't they said that they should be destroyed by it? They weren't, were they? In fact, didn't it take a relatively short amount of time to fix what damage WAS done to them?
Why is there fencing in a pacifistic school? A sword is a weapon. Weapons are decidedly UNpacifistic.
What prompted the development of MS in AC, exactly? In UC it was prompted by the minovsky particle rendering many warfare-use electronics useless. I see no such reasoning in AC. This one's a pretty big one, at least to me.
Here's some select specs of the leo, source being MAHQ. (Dimensions: head height 16.2 meters Weight: empty 7.0 metric tons; max gross weight unknown Construction: titanium alloy) Note the construction material.
Here's the same select specs, from the RGM-79 GM of UC (Dimensions: overall height 18.5 meters; head height 18.0 meters Weight: empty 41.2 metric tons; max gross 58.8 metric tons Construction: titanium alloy on semi-monocoque frame)
Notice any problems, there...? WEIGHT PARADOX! While there is a difference in height, a very slight one which could not explain the enormous difference in weight, I would say that the builds of the two MS are roughly the same. In fact, with its thunder thighs and giant pelvis, the leo might very well have a heavier "frame type". This is another pretty big one.
According to MAHQ, the Virgo is also made of gundanium. Please explain to me how a leo can take these on when the leo's weapons do next to nothing to the Gundams made of the same material.
Alaska.... The "lightning count" hands a powerful MS over to someone who's clearly an enemy. Like I said earlier, militaristic retardation.
NowhereManXP A very good argument. I haven't seen very many that are as good as that one in defence of the OZ-06MS Leo. To be honest, I find the Leo to be one of the most intriguing Mobile Suits in all of Gundam, and I am always happy when someone else sees it as something more than cannon fodder. 3nodding
Eh, there were a couple parts he should clarify, and one outright contradiction. When the packs were created for it and what purpose beam weaponry would have on a crowd control suit. And either the virgo/taurus thing or the video game analogy needs to go, as they contradict eachother in that the Virgo is twenty years newer than the leo, according to the dates he's given, which would make it an exact parallel to the video game analogy. Except...he claims the leo can "go up against" the virgo, after having said that it's the "same with the leo" in reference to the impossibility of the NES competing with the Xbox on any level.
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:21 pm
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Finally, someone who can argue well on Gaia who isn't on my side...
I've been waiting for a fun challange - you're on, Shani. Let's try to keep this friendly, ok? smile
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 1) I actually don't remember this happening - any space-based adventures generally had characters with the Wing equivalent of Normal Suits, the Astro Suit. Care to name the character, episode or anything so I can actually bother with this so-called 'fact?' Uh, zechs? Final battle. This ringing any bells? Of course, even if I'm mistaken and he did in fact have a normal suit, as well as a helmet, that still wouldn't explain him surviving a reactor explosion with his proximity to it.
Ohhh... You thought Zechs wasn't in an Astro Suit (which is , as I said before, the Wing Equivalent of a Normal Suit)...
Well, he WAS in an Astro Suit. Remember the Epyon System helmet? That was an extension of his Astro Suit, and was actually his space helmet as well.
Not to mention the fact that, the odds are really good that most cockpits are shielded against most radiation - if any was produced by the explosion in the first place.
If only to protect from the radiation produced in space by naturally occurring objects, anyway.
Not only that, but in all Gundam shows - with the apparent exception in Seed - MS are powered by fusion reactors.
One would think that this tech would be passed on to the battleships and fortresses - thus making the explosion generally non-hazardus to people outside the blast radius.
The explosion itself, though, was rather small - considering that Zechs just cut into the fusion reactor, it should be. Fusion can't sustain itself for very long without the machines needed to make it - thus a smaller explosion.
'Sides, all we saw was smoke and/or derbis covering Epyon's escape - though I may need to see the scene again.
And, finally, Zechs WAS planned to die - Endless Waltz had yet to be written.
'Sides, if Char can survive certain death a few times, I think some leeway can be given to his 'clone.'
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 2) So, being hurled away from the cockpit... landing headfirst... losting most of one's blood... and being in a coma for a month as a result, and recovering for the next several weeks to another month... isn't realistic enough for you in a show that has gigantic humanoid robots running about in it? Not just being hurled, being victim to an explosion, then being flung off it by that explosion. How high was it that he fell from, onto his head, btw? Something like 8 meters, half the height of the suit? Roughly 26 feet down, onto his head as you said, following an explosion. And he's given medical attention how long after it happens? And he survives? Maybe he'd survive, with crippling brain damage (that's a VERY generous maybe). Also, please explain to me how the existence of humanoid robots increases the durability of a human. The existence of giant robots in no way means you can give people superhuman abilities.
Admittedly, you bring up a good point.
However, Heero pretty much underwent near-inhuman physical training in the first place - such as being able to wake himself up without altering his brainwave patterns (as seen in episode 3).
And I was more commenting on the fact that it's an anime.
Keitaro in Love Hina survives physical torture that would kill ordinary humans - though that IS a comedy manga.
Kenshin Himura from Rurouni Kenshin is another example of surviving what should be lethal to most people - like shotgun-like impacts at point-blank range.
What can I say? Anime loves to mess with reality - especially when dramatic lisence is used.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 3) The Peacemillion was explained in the Episode Zero manga - it was constructed by both Howard and old Mushroom head, Professor G; better known as the man who constructed Deathscythe. I'd like some proof on this one, as no winger has ever claimed that before when it's been brought up, even when they're read that manga. Also, in what time period and how long did it take them to construct this? What were the circumstances, and how did they manage to construct such an enormous thing? Where did they find the manpower for such an undertaking? More details, please.
Sure, I'll give you what I know.
The funding for the Peacemillion came from the Barton Foundation (as presumably did everything else, like manpower), and was built by both Howard and Professor G for exploration outside the solar system.
Pages 26 and 27 of the Episode Zero graphic novel show those two putting Peacemillion on the moon, hidden away for safe storage. The year given is AC 192, and this actually happened before Duo became a Gundam pilot - much less was even found by Professor G in the first place.
As for why no one else has brought it up - I've got no clue there. Maybe the people you were arguing against hadn't just re-read the damn thing for a school project. sweatdrop
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 4) First off, they weren't JAGGED rocks. Aside from that, sure it's unlikely How far up was he, would you say, and about how long do you think he was in the air? It'd be really great if someone could find a screenshot of the height for me, though, as I can't find any from any sites I use for 'em.
Well, if I recall correctly, they were up on about the 20th or 30th floor - and there was a cliff below that.
Reguardless, it was rather obvious that Heero had either passed out - or was trying to kill himself. Either way, the whole 'parachute pull at the last second, and then nearly kill myself on rocks' thing wasn't planned at all.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Heero's not setting his ankle. He's resetting the bone - his leg snapped, not the ankle. That's why he's using the wrench as a makeshift splint and attaching it to his leg with adhesive tape of some sort. 'Sides, Heero didn't actually walk away. If you paid attention, you'd see that Heero was leaning heavily on the unboken leg and actually accepted help from Duo (even leaning on the braided pilot)... going so far as to not even use his broken leg while they hobbled away. Oh, alright. So it wasn't just an injury that he could pop back in, as unreasonable as that would be on its own...it was instead that his leg actually snapped, and then he set the bone himself and then was actually able to move, although not far, using that leg. Alright, now I understand. That's perfectly reasonable, right? I mean...magical training totally allowed him to survive the fall with only that injury, set the bone himself, then actually walk a short distance with it. Ah well, at least he didn't fall on his head this time.
Agreed on the head thing - even I found it a bit odd, though I let it slide. If Trowa can leap a good 3 stories into the air without a running start, we've just gotta let reality slide.
And I've spoken with a friend who's a med student - it IS possible, and semi-easy, to set broken limbs. However, there would be an inordinate amount of pain involved - and the scene did show him in a general load of pain when he was setting the bone back in place.
Inhuman? Sure - but that's how he was painted at first.
'Sides, just because he set said bone doesn't mean it knit right away - it just means that he could walk on it... while still feeling the pain from the break.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 5) Ahh... The Leo... One of Wing's most misunderstood points... Luckily, I happen to have something to counteract just about any point made against the Leo. Ironic that you use the word misunderstood, when you've clearly misinterpreted the point behind my statement. Thus, most of my responses to this section are just going to be caustic little jabs as most of the information you're giving is pretty irrelevant to the actual point. Although I felt it was obvious enough, I'll try and clear away any possible obfuscation anyways. I was saying that it is unrealistic for the pilots themselves to have such little skill, when they are trained soldiers. By citing things like the abilities of the leos in a positive light and their accomplishments against other suits, you're simply aiding my point greatly.
Actually, I've seen enough people talk about the Leo and not understand it that I cooked up this mirco-essay a while ago.
What can I say? Bringing it out seemed to fit.
And considering that Oz really hasn't had any enemies to fight, with the only shown exception being in AC 188 during Heero's Episode Zero story, I'd say it's not that hard to believe.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 For a real world comparison that actually uses equivalent technology, we needn't look at the military, but at video games. In 1985, The NES was released in the US. In 2005, the Xbox 360 was released in the US. 20 years apart, and do you honestly think that the NES stands a chance against Microsoft's giant when comparing mechanical statistics? No. Same with the Leo. NewtypeS3 Finally, the Leos are able to go up against the Virgos and Tauruses of Wing. That's like a Hi-Zack from Zeta going up against the Crossbone Vanguard's Den'an Zon (Beam weapons, Beam Shielding, ect...) and being able to survive. Exactly how old are the tauruses and virgos of wing, as of the start of the series? According to MAHQ, the taurus was first deployed in AC 195, same as the virgo. And seeing as, to my recollection, the virgo was only used later in the series, it was indeed created with the technology of that time? The whole shielding thing seemed to be based on the mercurius, and the cannon was based on the vayeate's. So yeah, the virgo was created in 195, giving 20 years in between. The leo apparently, as you claim, was able to "go up against" these virgos, thus nullifying your irrelevant analogy anyways, as well as showing that wing only gives pilots skill when it's good for the plot.
Ah, but the Virgos weren't Gundams, now were they?
'Sides, this is where it got iffy.
There is no onscreen footage of Leo pilots taking out Virgos, short of suicidally crashing into them.
However, the Endless Waltz movie edition has a few dozen men saying that they took down Virgos during the war with White Fang.
Even if they were bragging about the amount (which does happen in war), they obviously took down at least one or two Virgos in order for that to work. What condition their MS was in is never mentioned, though.
As for the Merc. and Vey. parts being streamlined for the Virgo, that's easy. It's a Gundam staple that no MP model is as powerful as the original prototype, for whatever reason.
In other words, though the Merc. and Vey. were used as basis for the Virgo, there isn't much chance of the 3 Planet Defensors and 1 medium-sized beam cannon standing up to the original 10 Planet Defensors or 1 Extra-Large beam cannon.
Not to mention that the Virgos were made to be cheap and mass-produced. The Gundams, however, were designed to be one-man weapons of devastation - more effort was put into their construction than should ever be in a sane world where costs of mass-production would be considered.
Good shot, though - it is something I'd yet to consider.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Another thing of note is that the Leo was made for crowd control, not MS combat. The fact that the Leo doesn't move all that fast attests to that, as well as the fact that there is no backpack boosters on the Leo. What crowd control suit isn't complete without a beam rifle or a beam saber? And why, exactly, is crowd control equipment (the mobile suit itself) being used for war in the first place? And how can they combat tauruses or virgos?
You'll note that there was obviously an insurrection or two - one that I mentioned earlier, and more than likely others - considering the opening narration for Wing. Most of these insurrections were done with existing tech, even previous levels of tech like the Tragos.
If your enemy was coming at you with the technological equivalent of the Atari 2600, and you had the equivalent of the NES, would you be worried?
Sure, you'd beef up the units slightly - like making the newer units beam-weapon-ready, but not much else.
If you look through Episode Zero, you'll see that the units in AC 188, even Treize's own Leo, don't have beam weaponry. They have the plain Leo machinegun.
In the events after AC 190, though, units are shown with the Beam Pistol (though the Leos make the noises of a machine gun while using it, but I digress).
It's not that hard to think that they actually did develop beam weaponry - or, having it already developed it, decided to finally implament it in their Leo units.
Besides, I wouldn't be suprised if they decided to start working on a new MS about then - it would take them a good 7 years to get the kinks out if they hadn't designed a new MS in a good 13 years so so, methinks.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 That's right - whereas the Zaku I and GINN had boosters built into the back pack, the Leo had none. Not even a 'backpack.' Yet they can take on tauruses and virgos? Wow, these guys must be skilled! Just look at how well they fare against the Gundams!
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 The closest thing that the Leo got was those 3 thrusters on it's skirt armour - and those don't fuly count because you need the Space Leo pack to control it in space and it's never used on the ground (Presumably because it can't provide the needed thrust to get off the ground). Yet they can take on tauruses and virgos? Wow, these guys must be skilled! Just look at how well they fare against the Gundams!
Hey, that is a low blow there. Like I said before, NES vs Xbox 360.
Considering that the times they take on Virgos, they generally have the booster pack or the space pack, those three boosters aren't used much.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 See, the Zaku and GINN are both stuck with physical weaponry, which is near-useless against the Gundams of their time. Beam sabers are the same way in wing, against the magical Gundams, unless of course plot dictates damage be done with them. Remember Alaska, the beam saber acting as a bludgeon? I'll talk a bit more about this later.
Same can be said about the Gundams in Seed, the Alex 0080, the RX-78 in the original, the Mk II and Zeta in Zeta, and so on.
And, as for the whole 'Beam Saber Whipping,' 08th MS has established that it is possible to 'tone down' Beam Sabers - making them weaker than they should be.
Also, Zechs wasn't out to kill - and wasn't stabbing, but rather swiping at Heavyarms. And Heavyarms is, if you recall, the second most heavily armoured suit in Wing, Sandrock taking the first prize on that.
Not only that, but Zeta Gundam showed Beam Sabers being used as bludgons as well.
Oh, and FYI? Antartica. Not Alaska.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 While the Leo DOES have that (the Leo Machinegun, a barely-shown bazooka and Dobergun, of course), it's also got beam weaponry: The Beam Pistol was used by Lady Une (and even on the Mercurius), and there was even a beam rifle that was considered standard equipment. And let's not forget the Beam Cannon that was used in the early opening narration sequences (yet completely ignored in the animation) that can take out an escaping shuttle with a single shot. Additional... There's actually another weapon worth noting. There's a Leo Commander type - seen only in episode 1. It has shoulder-mounted Beam Guns. This is actually an official variant to the Leo - and shoulder-mounted beam weaponry puts it heads above any similar competition. Oh, and when the Zaku has a heated physical weapon (Heat Hawk) made to cleave and slice with some resistance, and the GINN had a sword made for crushing suits, the Leo itself has actual Beam Sabers. What crowd control suit isn't complete without a beam rifle or a beam saber? Hell, let's throw the "Shuttle Killer 5000" on there as well. If only Yzak was in wing. As much as I dislike him, I wouldn't mind seeing him beat the s**t out of the wing pilots in or out of MS combat. I'd find it quite entertaining if he were to mistake wing for a shuttle.
Like I said, beam weaponry was probably developed (or at least deployed) after the rebellions if AC 188.
Before AC 188, the Leo was indeed used for crowd control - though the rebellions after it made it necessary for the Leo to become more adaptable, obviously.
And, oddly enough, even though those beam sabers are standard equipment in Wing, they aren't shown on the Leos at all in the Episode Zero manga - presumably making it another add-on after the rebellions.
So, hey, say what you like - I thank you for actually helping me enhance the Leo essay for the next time it's needed.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Before I finish, it's also important to note that where ZAFT and the Zeon had to make different suits for different environments, the Leo has different packs to let it be used in those environments. The Space Leo pack, of course, allows it to be used in space - and a booster pack (which looks a lot like the Jet pack in Seed Destiny) allows it to replace the Aries in the air. Granted, there's no water-based pack, but the Cancer and Pices take care of that. What crowd control suit DOESN'T need air superiority and the ability to function in space? Now were they actually originally created with these, or did the retards just slap them onto the leos instead of developing new weaponry, as I assume they did with the shuttle killer 5000 and all the other beam weaponry which would be ******** insane for use on a crowd control suit?
I admit, the 'Shuttle Killer 5000' was a bit extreme - but we've only seen one of them at all, and it was in the opening narration.
And, yeah, those bonus packs were add-ons. I'm assuming that the Space Leo pack was made pretty soon after the Leo, but they are removable.
The 'Jet Leo' pack was made in AC 195 after the Gundams showed up - if I recall correctly, Lady Une was the first to use it - and it was against Wufei in episode 8 - 'The Treize Assasination.'
Considering that space was where the majority of the enforcment was going on, I'd say that the Space Pack was a necessity for mobility in space - adding AMBAC (or the nearest equivalent) to a Leo.
The Jet pack, though, was probably developed just for increasing mobility to fight the Gundams on more even ground.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Finally, the Leos are able to go up against the Virgos and Tauruses of Wing. That's like a Hi-Zack from Zeta going up against the Crossbone Vanguard's Den'an Zon (Beam weapons, Beam Shielding, ect...) and being able to survive. This is definitely my favorite part of your response. You're actually helping my argument with this one. How can the leos go up against the virgos and tauruses, yet be so completely crushed by single Gundams? An even more direct comparison would be the leos' performance against Gundams to the performance of a leo against a Gundam with heero piloting the leo. Thus, I ask you...how can trained soldiers, so many of them, suck so hard at one point, yet kick so much a** at another? How is that, in any way, realistic?
Well, for one, the Gundam pilots have been shown, time and again, to be superior to the mobile doll units.
And, like I said earlier, the Gundams were designed to be one-man killing machines - no limit on spending, thanks to the Barton Foundation.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Ok, sure. Thanks for your overly sarcastic input, oh lord of this guild. Are you inferring, now, that I use my position tyranically? Or just that I use my position to try and exert control over others? Such stupidly brazen words from someone who's just joined, if that is indeed what you're getting at. My bashing wing (which I haven't done in a long time, as you can clearly see by my posts; you can't act like the catalyst for a situation, then expect people to stop bashing) and my acting as Captain of this guild are two things independent of eachother, my allowing wingers to join is pretty obvious proof of that. Of course, I may not know some of them are wingers? If I wanted to, I could simply ban them as soon as I found out. Have I? OH SHI- No, I have not.
[Shrugs] What can I say? The post you made basically ripping the person to shreads was a little much.
Admittedly, she didn't support her claims - but it's not like Seed has any claim to being more realistic than Wing. Especially with Kira "I survive anything" Yamato.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Care to explain the Minovski Particle? If Gundam is realistic to you, then explain how a bunch of Helium-3 can block pretty much everything required in the current battlefield - from radar right down to radio waves. Nationmaster.com -Technobabble that actually explains for once- I'll do further research on the subject, if this does not satisfy you; I'd say it's thorough enough. This also leads into one of my questions about wing I'll ask later on, since this is clearly what prompted the UC creation of mobile suits.
You do make a good point.
However, Star Wars tech and Star Trek have just as much, if not more, technobabble and explanation behind them - it doesn't make them any more realistic for it.
Stray Bullet Shani I was under the impression that all Gundam series involved in this current discussion had MS. Thus making this point completely irrelevant in discussion of proportionate realism. Sorry to shoot down what you clearly thought was a clever tactic. biggrin
[Shrugs.] Oh, well. Not like I'm getting all worked up over a simple discussion / debate.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Hell, newtypes. NEWTYPES. I'm not against the idea of 'human evolution' as presented in Gundam... much less the way they're presented in Gundam X... but is there a way you can explain the mumbo-jumbo that Newtypes have done in a realistic sense without going generally insane? Exactly how would there be set rules as to how realistic psychic powers are? As there are no known psychics that can prove they're psychic, in our world, we cannot judge the realism of the concept of what a psychic is when found in fiction; the concept of a psychic's powers is beyond our own understanding. Just because it can't be explained doesn't mean it isn't possible. For instance, did the Earth rotating around the sun seem realistic to people in the past? No, it did not, because it was something they couldn't comprehend or explain. But hell, the fact that they say the NT is humanity's "evolution" makes it pretty much impossible to call it unrealistic. Through adapation to one's environment, so much is possible, as clearly shown in the transition from water to land. When considering the fact that we, humanity as we currently are, only use something like 10-20% of our brainpower and can do this much leaves so many possibilities for the development of humanity. The journey into space could've kickstarted the evolution of humanity which had been stagnating for so long, shot it into overdrive and literally forced the evolution in some cases. Hell, it wouldn't even have to be evolution. The change of environment could've simply awoken the dormant and inactive portions of the brain, which could've been capable of NT feats from the very beginning. wink So yeah, it could possibly drive someone insane trying to figure out something like this if they really tried to.
I was more referring to the feats of Newtypism, not Newtypes themselves.
For example, we have been given an explanation for Amuro Ray's pushing back of Axis in CCA - but it doesn't make it very realistic.
Stray Bullet Shani Since I've already taken care of defending those 3, I'll just be a sarcastic badass on the next point. Since you love my sarcasm oh-so-much. cool NewtypeS3 So, yeah, the three main bases of the UC universe - Mobile Suits, The M-Particle, and Newtypes - are pretty damn unrealistic. As opposed to wing's what? Main characters never die (unless it's suicide), magical armor, PLOTSHIELD!, stereotype characters (I really shouldn't need to go into this one; the five main characters are the personification, each of them, of a different perspective of war), yay explosions, and "kawaii bishies" (as fangirls so often call them).
Actually, I never said Wing was realistic. Like I said, anime is anime is anime.
Especially because the original Gundam show did indeed have similar things - the Gundam itself, for example, rarely got damaged, except for the cardboard shield it toted about.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 For one, in the original Mobile Suit Gundam, Amuro pilots the Gundam. It's well-known, of course, that he was a civilian - and the son of the designer. Now, the Gundam is a military project - and is top-secret. The fact that Amuro is able to leap into the Gundam with the manual, flip through the manual, and then take down 2 mobile suits isn't exactly realistic. Sure, the first Zaku wasn't a good kill - but the second one required a precision stab through the cockpit of the Zaku. Amuro, obviously, has previous technical experience. He built his own Haro, if I remember correctly. I also recall, although without the source, that someone had once said in canon that "a newtype could get into a machine and automatically understand how it works". I believe this is from F91, Zeta, or ZZ. I don't really remember which, but I'm quite sure I've heard it before within a canon series. Also, he had found the manual beforehand and read briefly through it already. He had further looked through it while in the Gundam itself. Given that he is a NT, and thus highly-adept with mobile suits and such, I would consider his performance reasonable when combined with the fact that he had the manual with him. The increased spatial awareness and reaction time of a newtype is also clearly the reason behind Amuro's ability to make a precision attack.
The problem is that Amuro never really awakened as a Newtype until he met Lalah Sune.
Now, as for the other points, sure. Amuro's a badass - it's one of those given things in Gundam. However, you've also gotta realize that mechanical experience (building things) doesn't always give you experience in operating things (like piloting a mecha you didn't build).
Camille, for example, could be considered better than Amuro in this respect - he built and piloted Jr. Mobiles as a hobby, which are basically tiny mobile suits. It's certainly a lot closer to mobile suits than a Haro could hope to be.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 And, later on, Amuro is kept on as the pilot of the Gundam - when there's Ryu right nearby, who is an actual pilot assigned to the White Base. If I'm not mistaken, Ryu only had simulator experience. Being a pilot "officially assigned" to a ship does not make you a better pilot than anyone who's not an "official" pilot. And with Amuro going toe-to-toe with Char, one of Zeon's top aces of the time, I can't really blame Bright for allowing Amuro to continue piloting the Gundam. Sometimes, in desparate situations as the WB was in, it is better to neglect traditional officiality and instead rely on people with the skill that can keep you and your comrades alive. Knowing when to make these kinds of decisions is what makes a good commander. And from Amuro's growth as a pilot, we can see that he'd obviously made the right choice.
That is true - but if it was someone like the Luna II base commanders (much less anyone else with more military experience), Ryu would have been in the Gundam's cockpit.
It's great to look at things from the perspective we're at - we know what Amuro becomes. But, at the time, the White Base crew didn't.
That, of course, is what I was trying to get at.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 What gets even worse is that Amuro isn't relieved of his duties as pilot even after the White Base reaches Luna 2 - where many, many pilots were at who could have taken Amuro's place. Have you completely forgotten the circumstances of Luna II, or am I just imagining that basically the entire WB crew had been thrown in the brig as criminals, Amuro was nearly shot, and the guy had almost left them all there to die. Can you be so naive as to believe that he would willingly give up someone skilled enough to pilot the Gundam, an entirely new machine, who would therefore be in short supply, after he'd acted like that towards the WB crew? Furthermore, we don't even have proof that there was anyone capable of piloting it, when I would assume, reasonably, that controlling the Gundam is radically different when compared to piloting the Earth Federation's previous vehicles. And you can go "lol butt look at how easee it am fer amuro to cuntrol!", or something along those lines, but you have to keep in mind that Amuro is a newtype, and he had no prior experience with a different kind of control system which he would have to change from. So...there was no way the guy would give up any pilots to WB, and there wasn't even any guarantee that anyone could handle it as well as Amuro had.
I admit it's been about 3 years since I'd seen the TV show - but the movies (which are canon) had very little to say about the Luna II incident.
And, once again, Amuro wasn't even awakened as a Newtype until he met Lalah - making much of the Newtype points you've made moot.
Newtype he may have been, but he showed none of the actual Newtype traits until much later in the show - well into the second third of the series.
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 This isn't even mentioning Bright's akward obscession with Judau in ZZ, Pretty obvious to me he saw him as the second coming of Amuro, and he most likely felt guilty about what had happened with Amuro after the war (the whole quarantinish setup). At least, that's what I got from it. Of course, when it comes to a character's motivation, it's all up to the writers what the reality of them will be. But any possible motivation that would explain his actions would negate any point you can make on it about how there's no reasoning behind it.
What can I say? It felt odd for Bright to be running about and baically obscessing over Judau
Stray Bullet Shani NewtypeS3 Amuro's constant paranoia (which turns into reality, strangely enough) throughout the UC Newtype powers are, basically, psychic powers. Precognition is a very well-known psychic power.
I was more referring to how oddly accurate he was about his paranoia - which felt very little like precognition when I saw them in action.
For example, his paranoia over Char's fleet in CCA not bring right wound up being exactly righ after enough comb-overs.
Another is about how Amuro suspected there were people following him in Zeta... and with no proof to back him up about it either. The way he talked about it, it was just general paranoia, not Newtpye vibes.
But, hey, I could be wrong about that.
Stray Bullet Shani Now it's time for my turn. Of course, this is only stuff I can vaguely remember from wing back when I watched it oh-so-long ago. Additionally, whereas I've only got one series and can come up with all this, you've got an entire timeline to pluck from.
Fire away.
Stray Bullet Shani Alright, so wufei preaches about honor in battle, blah blah blah, kills a bunch of soldiers in their sleep, then he's let go by the people whose soldiers he killed. "Well, hey, I'm sure it was just a big misunderstanding! This kid will never do anything like that ever again, LOL." You can whine about things like them allowing Amuro to continue piloting all you want, but there's far more militaristic retardation in wing.
So you'd rather Wufei call ahead and ask if he could kill the soldiers that night?
Seriously, if you were in the middle of World War II (as one of the 'Allies') and saw Nazis sleeping at their posts, would you wait for them all to wake up and get ready before you shoot at them?
Wufei is dealing with the loss of his wife, Meilan, throughout the series - it's more understandable for him than anyone else, if you ask me, for Wufei to be cuthroat when deaing with Oz and his objectives.
Especially because Oz was planning to gas his colony in Wufei's Episode Zero story... and Wufei saw the gas canisters, prevented the colony gassing, and so on - but failed to save his wife.
Besides, the only time Wufei was ever captured was at the moon base - and it was Lady Une who let them (Wufei and Duo, also captutred for the umpteenth time) go.
If you remember, Lady Une was shot for her actions, and she did it because she followed Treize's beliefs that the Gundam pilots were important for the era - more so than the Mobile Dolls being made at the moon itself.
Oh, and for the 'Wufei has no Honor...'
Wasn't he holding back against Treize both times they fought?
The first time, Wufei could have easily killed Treize with his dragon fang, yet instead hopped out to swordfight Treize instead. Did he lose? Sure. But it was an honorable and fair fight.
The second time, Wufei again held back from using his dragon fangs - instead opting for a 'pure' swordfight against Treize.
And, of course, let's not forget the times Wufei has let the enemy take extra shots at him for whatever reason is running through his head at the time.
Stray Bullet Shani The wing Gundam's shitty self-destruct. What, did they cram some firecrackers in the arm in head? The entire point of a self-destruct is to make it impossible to rebuild. It was rebuilt. Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this? I've had past wingers suggest that the scientists disabled them or lessened them, but that's bullshit. They wouldn't do something that would be basically handing over technology to their enemy.
Actually, by that point, Oz had pretty much figured out the technology of the Gundams, and was actually shipping Gundanium about the world in that very episode.
And, as it was said in Endless Waltz, the Self-Detonation device is for 'Confidentiality Purposes' - to silence the pilot, rather than obliterate the MS.
While I don't argue that the self-detonation of Wing was nerfed, it is important to realize that Duo did disable the self-detonation device in Wing Gundam in episode 2. It is possible that Heero replaced that part when he 'salvaged' parts from Deathscythe, and would explain Deathscythe's inability to pull the same move later.
However, if that happened, it's always possible to repair things the wrong way, or completely mess up on them.
Additioally, they used the data of the Tallgeese to rebuild Wing - and Tallgeese is the 'mother' of all MS, as well as comperable to the Gundams.
Not too far of a stretch, now is it?
Stray Bullet Shani The entire zechs thing is such a blatant ripoff of Char it's not even funny. At least they didn't make Klueze the orphaned child of some ruler or politician, give him a long-lost female sibling, have them "fight" on opposite ******** it, I'm not even going any further.
Like making Rau a completely psycho-nutso who was convinced that 'all humanity should vanish into the darkness that it created' was any better.
Besides, Zechs did at least have the benefit from going from MSG Char to CCA Char and then to Quattro - rather than the other way around.
And you're also forgetting the fact that the second half of Wing actually had a different director, who was working on developing Gundam X as well.
Stray Bullet Shani I believe heero cuts epyon's arm off with a beam saber, yes? The same type of weapon which was used as a bludgeon in Alaska, was it? Now, I'd understand if heero's beam saber was like epyon's and it did that. There's an obvious difference in the strength of the weaponry, there.
For one, Tallgeese isn't Wing Zero and vice-versa.
Second, he aimed for the joint, where there is no armour - making it a clean break. Zechs was hitting the heavily-armoured chest.
Stray Bullet Shani The sandrock Gundam. Nothing but close combat weaponry. It's not even a speed-based MS. Why are they taking a Gundam that by all rights shouldn't be able to function alone, and sending it out alone? OH SHI- I forgot the plotshield and magic armor. If I was him, I'd simply walk around the battlefields taking all kinds of enemy fire, casually walking up to enemy mobile suits and slicing them in half. They can't dodge, since I'm a main character, so there's no need to rush! The same problem is found in deathscythe, which is literally devoid of any long range weaponry.
Deathscythe, though, has Hyper Jammers - they basically jam just about everything on the battlefield. And Deathscythe Hell has an actual cloaking device to go along with the Hyper Jammers.
Sandrock, though, is decidedly a command-based MS. It's designed to sit back and command the others - and considering that Quatre had the Magunac Corps with him, it's small wonder why Sandrock is how it is.
Besides, Sandrock is actually quite agile - the Wing stats (akward as they are) put Sandrock at 20% more agility/speed than the Leo, which is pretty good for a tank unit.
Stray Bullet Shani That shitty little kid, quatre. Why is someone so against war fighting? What kind of ******** retards would send an indecisive pacifist out onto a battlefield? I've heard a phrase before, and I think it fits pretty well here. "Fighting for peace is like ******** for virginity". Now of course, this is going to open up all kinds of philosophical tangents, but I'm ready for that. After all, only a retard would think that a species like ours which thrives upon conflict would ever change. That's one thing I DID like about Destiny, the entire LOGOS aspect of it.
From what I've heard, you don't seem to mind Kira - who IS exactly the same.
Quatre, like Kira, is fighting to protect his family and friends - and has killed more than his share of stock footage Leos. However, Quatre actually realizes the error of his ways when his own father dies right in front of him.
Admittedly, he goes completely ******** batshit, finds the plans for Wing Zero, builds it, and starts blowing up colonies, but he's no longer iffy on killing.
By the end of Wing, Quatre actually lectures Dorothy on war - saying that pointless fighting (like the fight between them) isn't what humanity needs.
I'd say he changed a fair damn amount - unlike someone else I could mention.
Stray Bullet Shani The previous point leads to the worst aspect of wing. Magical happy peace. Annihilating borders. So much idealistic bullshit. There is no way in hell humanity will ever achieve peace as we thrive on conflict, and the disintegration of all borders would just cause huge disputes between rival ethnicities and nations. This crap isn't just unrealistic, it's downright stupid.
Only Relena preaches the Total Pacifism - It's not my fault that people decided to follow her.
Of course, by the way, they DIDN'T remove all conflict.
What they did was create the Preventers - a group made to prevent most conflicts before they become a problem.
And, by the end of Endless Waltz, only the Mobile Suits are gone for good. Fighting still exists.
Stray Bullet Shani Correct me if I'm wrong on this one, as I'm not completely sure: All the magunacs, none of them died, right? How is that realistic? Idealizing war is ******** disgusting. In war there is death, not just on the bad guy's side.
Not all of them - but a fair majority did.
Part of the reason is because the 40 that remained worked as a team - taking out threats as they came up and focusing only on the 'here and now.' Teamwork can overcome a whole lot, especially in Gundam.
That, and they made a promise not to die until they saw Master Quatre - and those Magunacs just plain don't break promices.
Forgetting that, it's just in the script. Live with it.
Stray Bullet Shani In space battles, the majority of the time, there is no wreckage left behind after their destruction. I guess wing doesn't go by the laws of conservation of matter and energy.
Except when you obviously miss the remains of Mobile Dolls and Leo units slaughtered quite often in said space battles.
Much less the fact that, often times, said unit was obliterated by some form of beam cannon - which desintigrates, generally leaving little behind.
Stray Bullet Shani They were going down to Earth in what was supposed to be secret, right? The main character, heero, got caught before he even made it through the atmosphere. After making it down they're supposed to fight separately to achieve their goals. Within a few episodes, several of them have already met up if I remember correctly. Nice choices, colonists! Not only can they not successfully carry out their orders when they're actually trying, but they'll go as far as to disobey them outright! And what the hell did they plan to do with just the Gundams down on Earth? How the hell did they plan to follow it up?
Is it their fault that their objectives were damn similar - or put them close to the others?
Aside from that, methinks you missed Endless Waltz.
Had you seen it, you'd know that the Barton Foundation funded Operation Meteor in the first place - and that the original plan was for a colony drop, with the 5 Gundams coming in to sweep up the pieces.
Stray Bullet Shani Supposedly, the scientists had trained the pilots? Since when did scientists, people that would have to be extremely dedicated to their craft to come up with these magic Gundams, have the time or experience to train people in tactics and warfare?
Again, Barton Foundation paid for it all.
Period.
Stray Bullet Shani Didn't they torpedo the Gundams early on in the series, and hadn't they said that they should be destroyed by it? They weren't, were they? In fact, didn't it take a relatively short amount of time to fix what damage WAS done to them?
[Shrugs.] About as much damage done to the Strike by physical weaponry, apparently.
Remember that Gundanium Armour has general damage-nerfing abilities - including Beam Weaponry and Physical Attacks.
Stray Bullet Shani Why is there fencing in a pacifistic school? A sword is a weapon. Weapons are decidedly UNpacifistic.
Fencing is no longer a way of combat. It's considered recreation, now. Especially by the rich (of which Relena's school is for).
Considering that fencing is now an Olympic sport, I honestly doubt one can consider it 'fighting.'
Stray Bullet Shani What prompted the development of MS in AC, exactly? In UC it was prompted by the minovsky particle rendering many warfare-use electronics useless. I see no such reasoning in AC. This one's a pretty big one, at least to me.
Why were MS created in Seed? We're given no explanation.
Why were MS created in G-Gundam? Again, no explanation.
Why were MS created in Gundam X? Despite it being a heavily-hinted-at expansion of the UC, no explanation.
Why do you expect one here?
Best answer I can give you, though, would be colony building.
Stray Bullet Shani Here's some select specs of the leo, source being MAHQ. (Dimensions: head height 16.2 meters Weight: empty 7.0 metric tons; max gross weight unknown Construction: titanium alloy) Note the construction material. Here's the same select specs, from the RGM-79 GM of UC (Dimensions: overall height 18.5 meters; head height 18.0 meters Weight: empty 41.2 metric tons; max gross 58.8 metric tons Construction: titanium alloy on semi-monocoque frame) Notice any problems, there...? WEIGHT PARADOX! While there is a difference in height, a very slight one which could not explain the enormous difference in weight, I would say that the builds of the two MS are roughly the same. In fact, with its thunder thighs and giant pelvis, the leo might very well have a heavier "frame type". This is another pretty big one.
Well, for one, the Leos have been proven to be hollow MS. It's shown whenever a Leo loses an arm.
Seed units aren't hollow.
Also, the Leos are midgets compared to the GINN - which also accounts for the difference.
Stray Bullet Shani According to MAHQ, the Virgo is also made of gundanium. Please explain to me how a leo can take these on when the leo's weapons do next to nothing to the Gundams made of the same material.
Again, it's the classic 'MP Unit sucks compared to the original' bit in Gundam.
Stray Bullet Shani Alaska.... The "lightning count" hands a powerful MS over to someone who's clearly an enemy. Like I said earlier, militaristic retardation.
An enemy who he wanted to finish his fight with - and a fair fight at that.
It's not retardation, it's being honorable. Something you bitched about Wufei lacking eariler.
I'll give you this - you debate honorably.
However, at the end, you are digging for tiny flubs that every series will contain if you have the drive to look for them.
Seriously, complaining about Fencing. It's a ******** Olympic sport.
In any case, I hope to match wits with you again one day, Shani.
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Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:49 pm
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Quote: Eh, there were a couple parts he should clarify, and one outright contradiction. When the packs were created for it and what purpose beam weaponry would have on a crowd control suit. And either the virgo/taurus thing or the video game analogy needs to go, as they contradict eachother in that the Virgo is twenty years newer than the leo, according to the dates he's given, which would make it an exact parallel to the video game analogy. Except...he claims the leo can "go up against" the virgo, after having said that it's the "same with the leo" in reference to the impossibility of the NES competing with the Xbox on any level.
Well, I'll do my best to fill in some of the details (as you're right, there are places where it needs work; either because they're basically wrong or contradictory).
The OZ-06MS Leo is indeed designed for combat; of that have no doubt. Before Operation Meteor, however, it mainly saw duty in "police actions" and blockades--not much more. It is not a glorified, walking patrol car.
The contradiction involving the video game metaphor I passed over entirely. Good catch.
As you know, the Mobile Suits of Gundam Wing are rated in "Ability Points." While these are terrible if you're looking for exact specifications, they're great for measuring a machine's performance relative to another machine. There are five "Ability Points" categories: Fighting, Weapons, Speed, Power, and Armored. The OZ-06MS Leo is rated as having 100 points in every category, and is the base by which we compare all of the other Mobile Suits in Gundam Wing. We can thus say that it has a total of 500 "Ability Points."
The OZ-12SMS Taurus is rated as follows:
Fighting- 100
Weapons- 110
Speed- 125
Power- 110
Armored- 110
Total- 555 points
So, we can say that the Taurus feaures a 10% increase in Weapons Ability, a 25% increase in Speed Ability, a 10% increase in Power Ability, a 10% increase in Armored Ability, and a 55% performance increase overall.
That's a ton. Any Leo pilot would be hard-pressed to beat a Taurus.
Where we really start to get ridiculous is when we compare it with the truly high-end Mobile Suits, such as the OZ-02MD Virgo (which sports a 125% performance increase) and the XXXG-00W0 Wing Gundam Zero (with a mind-blowing 240% performance increase). With performance like that, it's no wonder that Leo's were used to mop the floor.
It's a testament to their pilots that some Leos were actually able to keep up with the higher-end Mobile Suits.
What makes the Leo so intriguing to me is its variability. Not only can it be outfitted for any environment relatively easily, it's extremely customizable and endures as a frontline machine for over 20 years. (I actually have my own theories about that last one, but that's the stuff of another post.) If that's not impressive, I can't tell you what is. |
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 5:49 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:44 am
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Colonel Lady Une Woah! That is one ferocious debate. I hope you don't mind if this lady watches. Hopefully, I'll emerge unscathed... I just wanted to see if anyone over here has info in Leia Barton, Mariemaia's mother... In Ep Zero, she's a nurse right? Did Treize really impregnate her or did she steal sperm? I've been wondering since Treize considers himself chivalrous and he was only seventeen whilst Leia must be considerably older having gone through med school and everything. What do you think? Proof that Treize was seventeen: AC195- he was 23 AC188- Heero's Episode Zero 95-88= 17 Mariemaia was 7 in AC 196 so she was born in AC 189. It takes nine months to make a child... Leia was impregnated in AC 188. Is seventeen year old Instructor Treize the type to have sex with an older woman he just met who also happens to be his nurse? Then again, Mariemaia does have Treize's eyes and eyebrows...
That's one of the bigger questions of EW.
Personally, I prefer the manga edition for this one - it reveals...
Dekim: We can always have another Mariemaia! I found her on the street, after all!
Honestly, I think it was sperm-stealing, or something similar - because Treize doesn't seem like the 'love 'em and leave 'em' type.
Reguardless, it's not like we can ask either Treize or Leia - Leia died in AC 191 (according to Heero's delving through records), and Treize in AC 195.
That, and they're not real. sweatdrop |
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:09 pm
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NewtypeS3 I've been waiting for a fun challange - you're on, Shani. Let's try to keep this friendly, ok? smile
You can't really request that after provoking someone on a subject they haven't bothered with in several months, additionally adding cutesy little comments like "next?" throughout your post. And it's really unreasonable for you to expect me to be nice, when not only are you making comments like you have, but are literally inviting insults as well through your own skill. To be perfectly honest, due to your inability to understand the entire concept this debate is founded on (PROPORTIONATE REALISM BETWEEN UC AND WING), I've felt like I'm dealing with a little kid.
NewtypeS3 Ohhh... You thought Zechs wasn't in an Astro Suit (which is , as I said before, the Wing Equivalent of a Normal Suit)... Well, he WAS in an Astro Suit. Remember the Epyon System helmet? That was an extension of his Astro Suit, and was actually his space helmet as well. Not to mention the fact that, the odds are really good that most cockpits are shielded against most radiation - if any was produced by the explosion in the first place. If only to protect from the radiation produced in space by naturally occurring objects, anyway. Not only that, but in all Gundam shows - with the apparent exception in Seed - MS are powered by fusion reactors. One would think that this tech would be passed on to the battleships and fortresses - thus making the explosion generally non-hazardus to people outside the blast radius. The explosion itself, though, was rather small - considering that Zechs just cut into the fusion reactor, it should be. Fusion can't sustain itself for very long without the machines needed to make it - thus a smaller explosion. 'Sides, all we saw was smoke and/or derbis covering Epyon's escape - though I may need to see the scene again.
I'ma hafta wait until I can get hold of a friend for this one, I don't have access to the episodes or any good screenshots. And considering how infrequent his visits have become.... gonk
NewtypeS3 And, finally, Zechs WAS planned to die - Endless Waltz had yet to be written.
So they brought a character, literally, back from the dead, just so they could make more money?
NewtypeS3 'Sides, if Char can survive certain death a few times, I think some leeway can be given to his 'clone.'
Nope, because zechs sucks a** compared to Char.
NewtypeS3 However, Heero pretty much underwent near-inhuman physical training in the first place - such as being able to wake himself up without altering his brainwave patterns (as seen in episode 3).
That does not allow him the right to surpass human limitation. I don't even have to go into how scrawny he is to help my argument.
NewtypeS3 Keitaro in Love Hina survives physical torture that would kill ordinary humans - though that IS a comedy manga.
Like you said, comedy manga. If I'm not mistaken, he actually goes flying or something along those lines? Yeah, that's not really a point that can be made when talking of the realism of something. And of course you're still missing the whole "proportional realism" concept here.
NewtypeS3 Kenshin Himura from Rurouni Kenshin is another example of surviving what should be lethal to most people - like shotgun-like impacts at point-blank range.
The fact that they have that "ken ki" crap, the magical swordsman's spirit stuff, completely invalidates your usage of this. Not that its usage was valid in the first place, with this having been a direct comparison between UC and wing since the start.
NewtypeS3 What can I say? Anime loves to mess with reality - especially when dramatic lisence is used.
Refer to the last line of my previous response. I don't know how many times I'll have to make this clear before you catch on.
NewtypeS3 The funding for the Peacemillion came from the Barton Foundation (as presumably did everything else, like manpower), and was built by both Howard and Professor G for exploration outside the solar system. Pages 26 and 27 of the Episode Zero graphic novel show those two putting Peacemillion on the moon, hidden away for safe storage. The year given is AC 192, and this actually happened before Duo became a Gundam pilot - much less was even found by Professor G in the first place.
At this point I have to ask when the episode zero crap was written. If it's before the TV series, alright. The changes in the characters, for instance quatre, are really unrealistic (his entire outlook goes through a complete turnaround in what, two years), but at least it's not simply used to fill in all the ridiculous gaps. However, if it is written after as I assume, based on the fact it covers pretty much every plothole from wing, that's ******** lame of the writer. It'd basically be covering his a** in manga form, and that'd really ******** piss me off. It pissed me off with what happened in Astray, but at least the entire Astray series didn't feel like it was used just to tie up plotholes like it feels with episode zero. I say this after reading summaries from two different sources.
And why wouldn't the barton foundation...I don't know, use their investment? A bit convenient that they pay so much for it, devote manpower and development to it, then just leave it somewhere only to be used for the series. This also adds to the feeling that the manga thing was used simply to tie up plotholes.
NewtypeS3 Well, if I recall correctly, they were up on about the 20th or 30th floor - and there was a cliff below that.
Yeah, uh, he'd die. There's really no way around that. To argue that a human, much less one of his body type, could survive is simply moronic.
NewtypeS3 Reguardless, it was rather obvious that Heero had either passed out - or was trying to kill himself. Either way, the whole 'parachute pull at the last second, and then nearly kill myself on rocks' thing wasn't planned at all.
A parachute pull at the last second would do little-to-nothing to slow his descent, as there would not be time for it to catch enough wind. He should've been a pavement-pancake.
NewtypeS3 Agreed on the head thing - even I found it a bit odd, though I let it slide. If Trowa can leap a good 3 stories into the air without a running start, we've just gotta let reality slide.
I would now like to bring to the table the unrealism in trowa's magical jumping ability. I'd also like to advise that you cease and desist shooting yourself in the foot. wink
NewtypeS3 And I've spoken with a friend who's a med student - it IS possible, and semi-easy, to set broken limbs. However, there would be an inordinate amount of pain involved - and the scene did show him in a general load of pain when he was setting the bone back in place.
Of course you told him the exact circumstances, yes? And he obviously disregarded the fact that he would DIE from the fall, and instead went into the possibility of the corpse setting what was left of its leg, pretending he was still alive again, and then said that? His leg would not merely be snapped, although I do admit some type of snapping is more realistic than "whoops, ankle got dislocated", it would be shattered (realistically, of course, he'd also be dead and resembling a pancake more than a person). I mean, 20-30 floors up and it's a single break, one that can be set? Yeah, sure.
NewtypeS3 Inhuman? Sure - but that's how he was painted at first.
And that totally allows him to completely and totally defy the limitations of the human body to such an extent, right?
OH SHI-
Wait, it doesn't.
He's still a human, and thus he's governed by the limitations of the human body. Some leeway could be given, but s**t, this is beyond explanation other than "LOLANIME".
NewtypeS3 'Sides, just because he set said bone doesn't mean it knit right away - it just means that he could walk on it... while still feeling the pain from the break.
You can't set what would be shattered, and there's no way in hell you'd be able to walk on it at all.
NewtypeS3 What can I say? Bringing it out seemed to fit.
Well, it doesn't fit.
NewtypeS3 And considering that Oz really hasn't had any enemies to fight, with the only shown exception being in AC 188 during Heero's Episode Zero story, I'd say it's not that hard to believe.
I'd first like to point out that something need not be shown for it to have happened, then I would further like to point out that they would be trained to use the weaponry they have. Them not being trained to use the weaponry they have would be yet another case of militaristic retardation, but of course the whole "defeating tauruses and virgos" thing shows that they do, indeed, have skill.
NewtypeS3 Ah, but the Virgos weren't Gundams, now were they?
You never said Gundams, instead you had used time as the main factor. Don't try and get out of it with some technicality that's completely irrelevant to the analogy. This fits, in terms of time, parallel to your analogy. And as the Xbox is merely one of the new generation consoles, and not a superconsole above the level of the current consoles, it doesn't matter whether it was a Gundam or another suit from the time period. So yeah, your leo-rant contradicts itself.
NewtypeS3 There is no onscreen footage of Leo pilots taking out Virgos, short of suicidally crashing into them. However, the Endless Waltz movie edition has a few dozen men saying that they took down Virgos during the war with White Fang. Even if they were bragging about the amount (which does happen in war), they obviously took down at least one or two Virgos in order for that to work. What condition their MS was in is never mentioned, though.
You'd chosen to cite the virgo thing, I'm going to keep slapping you in the face with it. whee
If I make up any bullshit, get caught on it and have it used against me or something to that effect, then basically admit I was bullshitting to try and help my argument, feel free to do the same.
NewtypeS3 As for the Merc. and Vey. parts being streamlined for the Virgo, that's easy. It's a Gundam staple that no MP model is as powerful as the original prototype, for whatever reason. In other words, though the Merc. and Vey. were used as basis for the Virgo, there isn't much chance of the 3 Planet Defensors and 1 medium-sized beam cannon standing up to the original 10 Planet Defensors or 1 Extra-Large beam cannon.
However, of course, they will still be quite powerful, easily above the weaponry a leo has. So it has better weaponry, and superior armor. It would take considerable skill for them to overcome those odds in the leo, especially when also factoring in that they're mobile dolls and thus have no qualms about killing...AND they have far better teamwork as their actions are all coordinated by a computer.
NewtypeS3 Not to mention that the Virgos were made to be cheap and mass-produced. The Gundams, however, were designed to be one-man weapons of devastation - more effort was put into their construction than should ever be in a sane world where costs of mass-production would be considered.
I don't see how they would use gundanium on something made to be "cheap". I also don't see why they would go to the trouble of making the adaptations of the mercurius and vayeate's weapons either, as a simple beam rifle is strong enough to crush most of the other MS. There's no getting around the fact that they made the virgos in an attempt to utterly crush their adversaries.
NewtypeS3 You'll note that there was obviously an insurrection or two - one that I mentioned earlier, and more than likely others - considering the opening narration for Wing. Most of these insurrections were done with existing tech, even previous levels of tech like the Tragos. If your enemy was coming at you with the technological equivalent of the Atari 2600, and you had the equivalent of the NES, would you be worried? Sure, you'd beef up the units slightly - like making the newer units beam-weapon-ready, but not much else. If you look through Episode Zero, you'll see that the units in AC 188, even Treize's own Leo, don't have beam weaponry. They have the plain Leo machinegun. In the events after AC 190, though, units are shown with the Beam Pistol. It's not that hard to think that they actually did develop beam weaponry - or, having it already developed it, decided to finally implament it in their Leo units.
Just as I thought, there were indeed upgrades as time went on. In your little rant, you act as though the MS remains unchanged. You should make it clear that this weaponry was added at a later time.
NewtypeS3 (though the Leos make the noises of a machine gun while using it, but I digress)
I would like to bring up the inaccuracies in sound effects, as you have noted. biggrin
NewtypeS3 Besides, I wouldn't be suprised if they decided to start working on a new MS about then - it would take them a good 7 years to get the kinks out if they hadn't designed a new MS in a good 13 years so so, methinks.
How long were the mercurius and vayeate in production, and how long did the virgo have for development? I'd think something like the forcefield, and the mobile doll system, would take quite a significant amount of time.
NewtypeS3 Hey, that is a low blow there. Like I said before, NES vs Xbox 360.
You essentially invalidated your own analogy, I really wouldn't keep bringing it up if I was you.
NewtypeS3 Considering that the times they take on Virgos, they generally have the booster pack or the space pack, those three boosters aren't used much.
Alright then, maybe their propulsion systems are matched at that point. The virgo still boasts superior firepower and armor, as well as the forcefield system, and aforementioned skill advantages based on being automated.
NewtypeS3 Same can be said about the Gundams in Seed, the Alex 0080, the RX-78 in the original, the Mk II and Zeta in Zeta, and so on.
No, not SEED; not to my recollection. While the shields in SEED can block a beam saber due to their anti-beam coating, the suits themselves will be torn to shreds by beam sabers. This is shown more times than I can count in the series, my favorite of which being yzak getting his legs cut right out from under him by Freedom.
Oh, and please give specific instances for each of your pieces of evidence. I've gone through the trouble of making sure to cite occurrences to the best of my ability, I do expect the same in return.
NewtypeS3 And, as for the whole 'Beam Saber Whipping,' 08th MS has established that it is possible to 'tone down' Beam Sabers - making them weaker than they should be.
Too bad that's clearly a UC example you're trying to apply to wing.
And toning it down would be a case of militaristic retardation in this case, to be added to the ever-growing list. You do not purposefully do something in warfare that will allow someone, who is quite possibly the biggest threat to your organization, to live.
NewtypeS3 Also, Zechs wasn't out to kill - and wasn't stabbing, but rather swiping at Heavyarms. And Heavyarms is, if you recall, the second most heavily armoured suit in Wing, Sandrock taking the first prize on that.
You do not purposefully do something in warfare that will allow someone, who is quite possibly the biggest threat to your organization, to live.
Oh, and I would think that the chest plate would be a lot thinner than it looks, what with the guns being underneath them and all.
NewtypeS3 Not only that, but Zeta Gundam showed Beam Sabers being used as bludgons as well.
You already mentioned that, and have yet to provide any kind of evidence beyond "it happened".
NewtypeS3 Oh, and FYI? Antartica. Not Alaska.
I haven't seen wing in a long time, and I don't plan on seeing it again, so I couldn't care much less about the specifics of the locations.
NewtypeS3 Like I said, beam weaponry was probably developed (or at least deployed) after the rebellions if AC 188.
You'll want to add that to your little "essay".
NewtypeS3 Before AC 188, the Leo was indeed used for crowd control - though the rebellions after it made it necessary for the Leo to become more adaptable, obviously.
I still don't understand how a MS is necessary for such a task.
NewtypeS3 And, oddly enough, even though those beam sabers are standard equipment in Wing, they aren't shown on the Leos at all in the Episode Zero manga - presumably making it another add-on after the rebellions.
You'll want to add that to your little "essay".
NewtypeS3 So, hey, say what you like - I thank you for actually helping me enhance the Leo essay for the next time it's needed.
Or the next time you completely misinterpret someone's post and want to look smart by posting some large (chockful of error, too) rant on a subject you perceive is related.
NewtypeS3 I admit, the 'Shuttle Killer 5000' was a bit extreme - but we've only seen one of them at all, and it was in the opening narration.
Hell, I think I'll strap one onto my roof. It'll be helpful with domestic disputes.
NewtypeS3 And, yeah, those bonus packs were add-ons. I'm assuming that the Space Leo pack was made pretty soon after the Leo, but they are removable. The 'Jet Leo' pack was made in AC 195 after the Gundams showed up - if I recall correctly, Lady Une was the first to use it - and it was against Wufei in episode 8 - 'The Treize Assasination.'
You'll want to add that to your little "essay".
NewtypeS3 Considering that space was where the majority of the enforcment was going on, I'd say that the Space Pack was a necessity for mobility in space - adding AMBAC (or the nearest equivalent) to a Leo.
It'd love to see a leo try to maneuver in space without one.
NewtypeS3 The Jet pack, though, was probably developed just for increasing mobility to fight the Gundams on more even ground.
I'm laughing, and it's starting to hurt. I mean, I know you said "more even ground" and everything, but Jesus. That's funny s**t.
NewtypeS3 Well, for one, the Gundam pilots have been shown, time and again, to be superior to the mobile doll units.
Individually, yes, but their success against entire armies of mobile dolls all linked together is quite unrealistic if you ask me. Unless of course the creators of the MD system were retards.
NewtypeS3 And, like I said earlier, the Gundams were designed to be one-man killing machines - no limit on spending, thanks to the Barton Foundation.
That still doesn't explain the circumstances of their victories against hoardes of enemies, really. And the barton foundation crap is pretty annoying; does the writer use it to cover his a** on everything?
NewtypeS3 [Shrugs] What can I say? The post you made basically ripping the person to shreads was a little much. Admittedly, she didn't support her claims - but it's not like Seed has any claim to being more realistic than Wing. Especially with Kira "I survive anything" Yamato.
So that's why you decided to provoke me, trying to play the valiant hero and impress someone?
Well, whatever your reasons, it's not like stating them will convince me to go easy on you.
And nice try, once more attempting to involve another series in this. I've got to ask at this point...are you consciously trying to create all these irrelevant tangents, or what?
NewtypeS3 You do make a good point. However, Star Wars tech and Star Trek have just as much, if not more, technobabble and explanation behind them - it doesn't make them any more realistic for it.
Then you are satisfied by it, and the minovsky particle contention you made is defeated.
NewtypeS3 I was more referring to the feats of Newtypism, not Newtypes themselves. For example, we have been given an explanation for Amuro Ray's pushing back of Axis in CCA - but it doesn't make it very realistic.
And my own statement, specifically the first half, pertains directly to that. For something that is currently impossible for us to understand, we cannot exactly set limits on what is and is not realistic on that subject. To do so we would have to confine the possibilities to our own understanding, to be able to call it realistic. In doing so, we would essentially be acting in a close-minded manner, just as those who believed in a geocentric solar system after the heliocentric solar system model was made.
NewtypeS3 Actually, I never said Wing was realistic. Like I said, anime is anime is anime.
My entire point is that wing is more unrealistic than UC Gundam is. How can you have come this far in the debate, without yet understanding that? Realism is not black and white, like I've been saying over and over again.
If you don't understand the entire point after this, just stop replying. gonk
NewtypeS3 Especially because the original Gundam show did indeed have similar things - the Gundam itself, for example, rarely got damaged, except for the cardboard shield it toted about.
Not outwardly damaged often, but it was being maintenanced all the friggin' time. We barely ever see the wing Gundams receiving maintenance. I mean, everytime zero or wing zero fired that cannon it should've needed maintenance. At least ew was more realistic in the effect the cannon has on the suit's frame.
NewtypeS3 The problem is that Amuro never really awakened as a Newtype until he met Lalah Sune.
I don't see how outward manifestion of his powers is a requirement for them to be there or utilized. While he may not have been as powerful of a NT, he was still a NT.
NewtypeS3 Now, as for the other points, sure. Amuro's a badass - it's one of those given things in Gundam. However, you've also gotta realize that mechanical experience (building things) doesn't always give you experience in operating things (like piloting a mecha you didn't build). That is true, however, it would clearly give him significant understanding of the manual itself and how it works. Camille, for example, could be considered better than Amuro in this respect - he built and piloted Jr. Mobiles as a hobby. It's certainly a lot closer to mobile suits than a Haro could hope to be.
Much to your dismay, I have just read a summary of the quatre portion of the episode zero manga.
The fact that he's able to get into the suit and fight against trained soldiers with it, surely taking out more than just 2, without being a NT, completely destroys any point you could've made on this. By showing that wing is far more unrealistic in this aspect, MSG's possible unrealism in this instance is negligible. Of course, for the MSG argument, there's still the fact Amuro was a NT.
NewtypeS3 That is true - but if it was someone like the Luna II base commanders (much less anyone else with more military experience), Ryu would have been in the Gundam's cockpit.
And he wouldn'tve piloted it as well as Amuro did, and WB would've most likely been destroyed along with the Gundam, or simply captured. Then Zeon, if it was captured, gets all the data and tech from the ship and the Gundam and thus they greatly improve on their own technology, possibly leading to them winning the OYW? Haha, that'd be ******** awesome; although you should clearly be able to see how that'd be pretty bad for the feddies. As the commander, Bright realized Amuro's potential and made the right decision in the end.
NewtypeS3 It's great to look at things from the perspective we're at - we know what Amuro becomes. But, at the time, the White Base crew didn't. That, of course, is what I was trying to get at.
They'd seen the kid push back the Red Comet, something absolutely unbelievable for a rookie like him who didn't even have any simulator experience. From that alone they can see great potential. And of course, the whole kill two zakus on his first try with no previous piloting experience thing. Use some common sense, here; if you're a commanding officer and see someone with such insane potential that they could achieve so much with focusing and more training, and then also see someone who's just had simulator experience, whose hands are you going to put your life into?
NewtypeS3 I admit it's been about 3 years since I'd seen the TV show - but the movies (which are canon) had very little to say about the Luna II incident.
Well, I'd advise against speaking on things you aren't educated on without doing research. Having not seen MSG in a long time myself, I made sure to reread the MAHQ episode summaries to refresh my memory.
NewtypeS3 And, once again, Amuro wasn't even awakened as a Newtype until he met Lalah - making much of the Newtype points you've made moot.
As I said, outward manifestation is not a requirement for them to be present or usable; not everything about being a NT is overt.
NewtypeS3 Newtype he may have been, but he showed none of the actual Newtype traits until much later in the show - well into the second third of the series.
Enhanced technical understanding is a trait of a newtype, as stated in that unidentified quote of mine gonk ; he exhibits that in the very first episode. I'm not using that first one as my main proof of course, since I have no definite source for the quote. However, increased spatial awareness, a defined newtype trait, is also shown in his precision strike on the Zaku in the first episode.
NewtypeS3 I was more referring to how oddly accurate he was about his paranoia - which felt very little like precognition when I saw them in action. For example, his paranoia over Char's fleet in CCA not bring right wound up being exactly righ after enough comb-overs. Another is about how Amuro suspected there were people following him... and with no proof to back him up about it either. The way he talked about it, it was just general paranoia, not Newtpye vibes.
Amuro's a pretty unstable person. His precognition, even if it's as clear as day, isn't going to make him go "there are people following me!" It's much more realistic and true to his character to have him simply act in a paranoid way, as he did.
NewtypeS3 So you'd rather Wufei call ahead and ask if he could kill the soldiers that night?
It'd simply make more sense if he, you know, didn't go against everything he preaches. Even if it wouldn't be practical or logical to act honorably...you've cited several instances where he does act illogically for the sake of the honor he's always preaching about. Why did he not act in the same manner in this instance? Was it not convenient for the plot?
NewtypeS3 Seriously, if you were in the middle of World War II (as one of the 'Allies') and saw Nazis sleeping at their posts, would you wait for them all to wake up and get ready before you shoot at them?
Nope, but I would think that someone who would "let the enemy take extra shots at him for whatever reason is running through his head at the time" would avoid killing sleeping soldiers.
NewtypeS3 Wufei is dealing with the loss of his wife, Meilan, throughout the series - it's more understandable for him than anyone else, if you ask me.
"He's a hypocritical turd, but at least he's got a somewhat-valid reason!"
NewtypeS3 Besides, the only time Wufei was ever captured was at the moon base - and it was Lady Une who let them go. If you remember, Lady Une was shot for her actions, and she did it because she followed Treize's beliefs that the Gundam pilots were important for the era - more so than the Mobile Dolls being made at the moon itself.
Eeeh, I thought he'd been captured after killing the soldiers in their sleep. Must've been my mistake, then. We'll forget about that instance of militaristic retardation then, there's plenty of others already.
NewtypeS3 Oh, and for the 'Wufei has no Honor...'
He's "honorable", but only when it's convenient for both him and the plot.
NewtypeS3 Wasn't he holding back against Treize both times they fought? The first time, Wufei could have easily killed Treize with his dragon fang, yet instead hopped out to swordfight Treize instead. Did he lose? Sure. But it was an honorable and fair fight.
He's "honorable", but only when it's convenient for both him and the plot.
I don't see how one instance of him acting honorably would change the fact that he acted decidedly dishonorably.
NewtypeS3 The second time, Wufei again held back from using his dragon fangs - instead opting for a 'pure' swordfight against Treize.
He's "honorable", but only when it's convenient for both him and the plot.
I don't see how one instance of him acting honorably would change the fact that he acted decidedly dishonorably.
NewtypeS3 And, of course, let's not forget the times Wufei has let the enemy take extra shots at him for whatever reason is running through his head at the time.
He's "honorable", but only when it's convenient for both him and the plot.
I don't see how one instance of him acting honorably would change the fact that he acted decidedly dishonorably.
NewtypeS3 Actually, by that point, Oz had pretty much figured out the technology of the Gundams, and was actually shipping Gundanium about the world in that very episode.
Going by the exact same logic you did with your "we can see what the end result is but they can't" comment about Amuro, the scientists and creators would not have foreseen it happening, thus they would protect the mechanics in whatever way they could to keep the secrets from being leaked quicker. And, exactly how had the technology of the Gundams been leaked?
NewtypeS3 And, as it was said in Endless Waltz, the Self-Detonation device is for 'Confidentiality Purposes' - to silence the pilot, rather than obliterate the MS.
Then we'll chalk it up to militaristic retardation. There is no point in only doing one when they could do both, and heero is pretty much the only one who would willingly sacrifice himself to protect the secrecy of the mission. I guess clownboy's a maybe on this one, although it's doubtful.
NewtypeS3 While I don't argue that the self-detonation of Wing was nerfed, it is important to realize that Duo did disable the self-detonation device in Wing Gundam in episode 2. It is possible that Heero replaced that part when he 'salvaged' parts from Deathscythe, and would explain Deathscythe's inability to pull the same move later. However, if that happened, it's always possible to repair things the wrong way, or completely mess up on them.
But these are the magical wing kids, he obviously fixed it perfectly. Or is he called the "perfect soldier" for nothing? I'm suprised the writer didn't make a new manga just to have heero go "LOL I ******** UP ON FIXING THE SELF-DETONATION SYSTEM".
NewtypeS3 Additioally, they used the data of the Tallgeese to rebuild Wing - and Tallgeese is the 'mother' of all MS, as well as comperable to the Gundams. Not too far of a stretch, now is it?
Except for the fact there should've been nothing left to rebuild from in the first place, sure. Maybe some random scraps would survive an actual self-destruct, but wing's torso was pretty much completely intact.
NewtypeS3 Like making Rau a completely psycho-nutso who was convinced that 'all humanity should vanish into the darkness that it created' was any better.
It was original, and that's far more than anyone can say for zechs. And Raww's goal of "kill the s**t out of everyone" was far more realistic than zechs' "scare them into not fighting" bullshit.
NewtypeS3 Besides, Zechs did at least have the benefit from going from MSG Char to CCA Char and then to Quattro - rather than the other way around.
If you're saying that zechs was better than Char...your entire argument will be completely invalidated. Char began more selfishly in MSG, then went on to work for humanity's betterment in Zeta, to only be disappointed by humanity which led to his CCA actions. I'd like to hear your interpretation of zechs' evolution.
NewtypeS3 And you're also forgetting the fact that the second half of Wing actually had a different director, who was working on developing Gundam X as well.
How could he make X so awesome, yet wing so sucky?
NewtypeS3 For one, Tallgeese isn't Wing Zero and vice-versa.
And?
NewtypeS3 Second, he aimed for the joint, if I recall correctly - making it a clean break. Zechs was hitting the heavily-armoured chest.
I was under the impression the construction of the MS itself was entirely gundanium. I don't see how it could fail to cut through the thinner gundanium of the chest but succeed in cutting through the shoulder armor of epyon as well as the shoulder itself.
NewtypeS3 Deathscythe, though, has Hyper Jammers - they basically jam just about everything on the battlefield. And Deathscythe Hell has an actual cloaking device to go along with the Hyper Jammers.
I don't see how that would keep people from simply blowing the s**t out of deathscythe with medium-to-long range with beam weaponry. In a fight against multiple enemies, a suit like deathscythe is pretty useless. It only survived as it did because of the magic armor and the enemies automatically sucking against any Gundam. And the utter lack of tactics in any form.
NewtypeS3 Sandrock, though, is decidedly a command-based MS. It's designed to sit back and command the others - and considering that Quatre had the Magunac Corps with him, it's small wonder why Sandrock is how it is.
Are you saying the suit was created with magunac assistance in mind?
NewtypeS3 Besides, Sandrock is actually quite agile - the Wing stats (akward as they are) put Sandrock at 20% more agility/speed than the Leo, which is pretty good for a tank unit.
Never cite wing stats in my presence again, seriously. These are machines, not video game characters.
And it really, really doesn't take much to outdo a leo in terms of agility.
NewtypeS3 From what I've heard, you don't seem to mind Kira - who IS exactly the same. Quatre, like Kira, is fighting to protect his family and friends - and has killed more than his share of sock footage Leos. However, Quatre actually realizes the error of his ways when his own father dies right in front of him.
Would you quit it with the childish attempts at diversions, already?
And you really shouldn't group Kira with that little kid, as Kira doesn't jump back and forth between being a pacifist and a crazy shithead.
NewtypeS3 Admittedly, he goes completely ******** batshit, finds the plans for Wing Zero, builds it, and starts blowing up colonies, but he's no longer iffy on killing.
This of course after having already had a revelation in the past in the episode zero manga. So he starts out as a little b***h, becomes stable, goes batshit insane, then becomes some pacifist wuss who still kills. I love how heero had chosen him, easily the most unstable character, to use the zero system in the last few episodes.
NewtypeS3 By the end of Wing, Quatre actually lectures Dorothy on war - saying that pointless fighting (like the fight between them) isn't what humanity needs. I'd say he changed a fair damn amount - unlike someone else I could mention.
If you consider such changes by such a hilariously-unstable person realistic, I'm going to laugh at you; I'm not sure when I'll stop laughing.
NewtypeS3 Only Relena preaches the Total Pacifism.
Any form of pacifism is utter bullshit. Her idealistic s**t was just overall, hence "total".
NewtypeS3 It's not my fault that people decided to follow her.
Whoever said it was your fault? I simply said that it's unrealistic for people to follow those ideals, much less follow them when they're being preached by a little girl. And here I'll preempt you on your obvious counter on this one. Lacus is irrelevant in this comparison. whee
NewtypeS3 Of course, they DIDN'T remove all conflict.
But abolishing all borders somehow didn't send the world into an uproar; what kind of bullshit is that?
NewtypeS3 What they did was create the Preventers - a group made to prevent most conflicts before they become a problem.
LOL, FASCISM. xd
NewtypeS3 And, by the end of Endless Waltz, only the Mobile Suits are gone for good. Fighting still exists.
NewtypeS3 Not all of them - but a fair majority did.
Hm, I thought there weren't any casualties in their group.
NewtypeS3 Part of the reason is because the 40 that remained worked as a team - taking out threats as they came up and focusing only on the 'here and now.' Teamwork can overcome a whole lot, especially in Gundam.
But of course, teamwork isn't needed when you're in a magic Gundam.
NewtypeS3 That, and they made a promise not to die until they saw Master Quatre - and those Magunacs just plain don't break promices.
I'll just pretend you didn't say that.
NewtypeS3 Forgetting that, it's just in the script. Live with it.
As is Bright's "obsession" with Judau which you seem to have a problem with, and basically every plot problem with any series. It's all "scripted", so saying "it's in the script, deal with it", during a debate, is a copout.
NewtypeS3 Except when you obviously miss the remains of Mobile Dolls and Leo units slaughtered quite often in said space battles.
In most cases, to my recollection, this is when they're slowly panning across the battlefield in an attempt to add drama.
NewtypeS3 Much less the fact that, often times, said unit was obliterated by some form of beam cannon - which desintigrates, generally leaving little behind.
Yeah, but even with a beam cannon, unless it's heero's magic gun, will not destroy the entire suit. When explosions fade in space, in wing, there's almost never anything left.
NewtypeS3 Is it their fault that their objectives were damn similar - or put them close to the others?
Militaristic retardation. Why would they send any of them into areas even close to eachother, when the suits themselves are magically godly and can take on armies by themselves if they want?
NewtypeS3 Had you seen it, you'd know that the Barton Foundation funded Operation Meteor in the first place - and that the original plan was for a colony drop, with the 5 Gundams coming in to sweep up the pieces.
And exactly how were they going to transport the colony to Earth? And why did they go through with the operation without the colony drop? Did they actually expect to accomplish anything?
NewtypeS3 Again, Barton Foundation paid for it all. Period.
Again...I think you're misunderstanding what I said. I said that I'd heard the scientists had been the ones to train the 5 pilots. I am asking here how they would be well-versed in warfare when they should logically be specialized in MS development to be able to create the 5 Gundams.
Oh, and the whole "LOL BARTON FOUNDATION" thing has got to be the biggest copout the writers have given in all of wing.
NewtypeS3 [Shrugs.] About as much damage done to the Strike by physical weaponry, apparently.
Although SEED isn't either of the timelines we're discussing here, I'll humor you on this.
Phase shift armor. At least SEED has an explanation beyond "LOLMAGICARMOR".
NewtypeS3 Remember that Gundanium Armour has general damage-nerfing abilities - including Beam Weaponry and Physical Attacks.
Yeah, yeah, we all know they've got magic armor. However, they'd said the suits would be destroyed by it and they weren't, and then they fixed what little damage that was done in a few days, if I remember correctly.
NewtypeS3 Fencing is no longer a way of combat. It's considered recreation, now. Especially by the rich (of which Relena's school is for).
It's simply a combative sport in which two opponents battle eachother with weapons intended to kill, using precison skills used for killing, and on top of all that aiming for a killshot (the little heart thing, I believe it's located somewhere around the aorta). A sword is a weapon, and should have no place in a pacifistic society...much less a pacifistic school. xd
"Today we learn how to be peaceful...with swordfights!"
NewtypeS3 Considering that fencing is now an Olympic sport, I honestly doubt one can consider it 'fighting.'
I don't remember calling it "fighting" outside of in my recent satirical quote, I believe I'd simply called it unpacifistic. To be that, something does not need to be an outright fight. Fencing is, undeniably, a combative act. Combative acts, based upon skills and weapons used to kill, should have no place in a pacifistic school. I don't see how you can really argue this point.
NewtypeS3 Why were MS created in Seed? We're given no explanation.
Actually, there's a huge one here, and I'll humor you with it: The N-jammers.
GundamOfficial The N-Jammer also has the side effect of disrupting radio waves, thus rendering radar and conventional communications useless, and for this reason space warships are equipped with these devices as an electronic countermeasure.
So basically, it's for roughly the same reason found in UC. While it may not be made clear as to how this is done, at least they've got an actual, clear reason in SEED as to why they developed MS. And no, your inability to catch it does not make it unclear.
Furthermore, the majority of Gundam being unrealistic has no bearing on a comparison between the proportionate realism of UC and wing.
NewtypeS3 Why were MS created in G-Gundam? Again, no explanation.
C'mon, don't tell me you're not admitting that wing is just as realistic a G Gundam? If you're doing that, honestly, I'll drop all my points right now and leave it be, as long as you don't do something stupid like say yes to this and try to debate other points. xd
Seriously, G kinda stands alone among the Gundam series as the single most unrealistic series, mainly because there was no attempt at making it realistic; it was a clear attempt at a super robot Gundam series. To expect reason in a show like that, which is so heavily unrealistic, is rather unwarranted. And by bringing it up in a conversation about the realism of wing, it is suggested that you feel they are comparably realistic. Oh, and, the majority of Gundam being unrealistic has no bearing on a comparison between the proportionate realism of UC and wing.
NewtypeS3 Why were MS created in Gundam X? Despite it being a heavily-hinted-at expansion of the UC, no explanation.
The majority of Gundam being unrealistic has no bearing on a comparison between the proportionate realism of UC and wing.
NewtypeS3 Why do you expect one here?
Oh, I don't, it is wing after all. I'm simply saying that its lack of reasoning pushes it further down on the scale of realism.
NewtypeS3 Best answer I can give you, though, would be colony building.
The cost to engineer and produce a MS would outweigh the amount of money they could save by using them in construction: the design of an initial MS will be far above that of subsequent MS, as the technology is all either new or being modified and adapted for this specific use, and the building of the colonies is not something that is going to be continual as they will eventually be finished.
NewtypeS3 Well, for one, the Leos have been proven to be hollow MS. It's shown whenever a Leo loses an arm. Seed units aren't hollow.
...It's absolutely impossible for a MS to be "hollow": with the reactor, power distribution mechanics, motors, thrusters (a leo has very few, but they would still take up some space), among other things like cameras and such.
Unless of course you mean that they're "hollow" in the sense that there is nothing but these mechanisms, which would easily take up the majority of the interior of the suit as it is. Thus, that space in-between all the mechanics could not account for the HUEG LIEK XBAWKS difference in weight.
NewtypeS3 Also, the Leos are midgets compared to the GINN - which also accounts for the difference.
Where are you getting the GINN thing from? I clearly used a UC GM in my example of weight. We're not talking about SEED or other AUs here, although you're trying to bring them in at a few points in it. Fact is, it's the same construction material and the GM is only 1-2 meters taller than the leo, which as I said is arguably more bulky with its thunder thighs and giant pelvis.
NewtypeS3 Again, it's the classic 'MP Unit sucks compared to the original' bit in Gundam.
Except that still doesn't explain how the armor can be so different, and how a leo could possibly take out a virgo as you'd said in your argument (even if there's no definite proof it ever happened, you stated it as though there was, thus I am entitled to use that point as though it were concrete).
NewtypeS3 An enemy who he wanted to finish his fight with - and a fair fight at that.
Militaristic retardation. Those ridiculous ideals have no place in warfare, especially not when dealing with one of the largest possible threats to your side.
NewtypeS3 It's not retardation, it's being honorable.
I don't really see a difference between the two concepts in this instance.
NewtypeS3 Something you bitched about Wufei lacking eariler.
You should understand that I only brought up his lacking it because he's always preaching of it, and thus his actions are a direct contradiction of the ideals he speaks of.
Honor truly has no place in warfare. This is one of the major failings wing has, in that is idealizes warfare and combat in general.
NewtypeS3 However, at the end, you are digging for tiny flubs that every series will contain if you have the drive to look for them.
As opposed to your uninformed blabbering about Luna II, and your several misinterpretations. Do not try and criticize the way I work until you can do a better job.
NewtypeS3 Seriously, complaining about Fencing. It's a ******** Olympic sport.
"Wah wah wah, Bright's obsessed with Judau!"
I'm not the only one picking on unimportant details. Except, I'm not trying to use these add-ons as my main argument. They're all simply auxiliary, hence their being added later on.
NewtypeS3 In any case, I hope to match wits with you again one day, Shani.
...Eeeh? Did I miss something, here? I don't remember conceding, and I don't see a forfeit on your part either.
NowhereManXP The OZ-06MS Leo is indeed designed for combat; of that have no doubt. Before Operation Meteor, however, it mainly saw duty in "police actions" and blockades--not much more. It is not a glorified, walking patrol car.
The crowd control thing, as I suspected, was pretty far off.
NowhereManXP As you know, the Mobile Suits of Gundam Wing are rated in "Ability Points." While these are terrible if you're looking for exact specifications, they're great for measuring a machine's performance relative to another machine. There are five "Ability Points" categories: Fighting, Weapons, Speed, Power, and Armored. The OZ-06MS Leo is rated as having 100 points in every category, and is the base by which we compare all of the other Mobile Suits in Gundam Wing. We can thus say that it has a total of 500 "Ability Points." The OZ-12SMS Taurus is rated as follows: Fighting- 100
Weapons- 110
Speed- 125
Power- 110
Armored- 110
Total- 555 points So, we can say that the Taurus feaures a 10% increase in Weapons Ability, a 25% increase in Speed Ability, a 10% increase in Power Ability, a 10% increase in Armored Ability, and a 55% performance increase overall. That's a ton. Any Leo pilot would be hard-pressed to beat a Taurus. Where we really start to get ridiculous is when we compare it with the truly high-end Mobile Suits, such as the OZ-02MD Virgo (which sports a 125% performance increase) and the XXXG-00W0 Wing Gundam Zero (with a mind-blowing 240% performance increase). With performance like that, it's no wonder that Leo's were used to mop the floor. It's a testament to their pilots that some Leos were actually able to keep up with the higher-end Mobile Suits.
Which is really just helping out my argument, as these same troops were absolutely raped by the Gundams, when they were all ganging up on the Gundams. You would think that as many pilots as there were could overcome a 240% increase, when a single one can supposedly overcome a 125% increase. |
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:36 am
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 10:57 am
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:05 am
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You know, Shani, I'd love to continue this with you and waste more of my time...
But I honestly don't see the reason in continuing while you continue to let your hatred of Wing fester inside of you.
You yell at me for 'daring to compare' Char and Zechs - yet you don't mind doing the same.
You scold me for using the Wing stats (comparing a Leo and Sandrock in speed), yet you don't mind using Wing stats against me when it suits your purposes - and distorting their original use by Nowhereman to your own tatics.
I've provided you with proof of what you ask - in some cases agreeing with you - yet you demand more, ignoring what was presented.
You claim I'm acting like a little kid, when you keep on changing the subject about slightly - and then insulting me when it benefits you.
You, sir, are the second-biggest hypocrite I've run across on the internet. And I honestly don't have the time or patience to bother with you anymore.
---
Oh, and before I leave this topic, Shani? You might wanna knnow something...
MS came before the N-Jammers. The reason the N-Jammers were used was because EA got panicky about the MS from ZAFT and equipped their Moebious MAs with Nukes.
Not the other way around.
If you're so 'prepared' and 'ready' for arguing, how could you have missed that crucial fact?
Also... Seed is no better than Wing. Any unit that isn't piloted by a main character - or a pilot with a name - is instant cannon fodder.
And the newest units automatically win against the older ones - even if the older units are less than 6 months old.
In any case, you're not worth this anymore, Shani.
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:22 am
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:11 am
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:24 am
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NewtypeS3 You know, Shani, I'd love to continue this with you and waste more of my time...
Funny that you're backing out so cowardly, when you're the one who initiated this with your childish taunt. Deal with the consequences of your actions.
NewtypeS3 But I honestly don't see the reason in continuing while you continue to let your hatred of Wing fester inside of you.
That's hardly the case, as evidenced by the fact that I hadn't even gone wing bashing in a long time...until you provoked me. You brought it upon yourself so you've got no right to cry and moan, or b***h. Misinterpretation of my motives.
NewtypeS3 You yell at me for 'daring to compare' Char and Zechs - yet you don't mind doing the same.
I love when people try to back out, but at the same time are too insecure to do so without trying pathetically to debunk the other person's statements in doing so.
Oh, and btw. I wasn't yelling, as you're not a challenging enough opponent to frustrate me... and you still need work on your reading comprehension. I called zechs a blatant ripoff, and never compared the two on any kind of equal footing. You said something that could possibly be construed as putting zechs above Char, and I addressed that accordingly. Chalk another up to your misinterpretations.
NewtypeS3 You scold me for using the Wing stats (comparing a Leo and Sandrock in speed), yet you don't mind using Wing stats against me when it suits your purposes - and distorting their original use by Nowhereman to your own tatics.
Only valid thing in your entire post.
Want a cookie?
Even without that, my case was still quite solid.
NewtypeS3 I've provided you with proof of what you ask - in some cases agreeing with you - yet you demand more, ignoring what was presented.
And here you're afraid to give specific instances of what you feel you've proven, because I'd just end up recrushing you on it.
NewtypeS3 You claim I'm acting like a little kid, when you keep on changing the subject about slightly - and then insulting me when it benefits you.
You call me a hypocrite, then you talk about me changing the subject?
"HAY GUYS BUTT OTHR ANIMU M UNRELISTUC". Regardless of whether or not these instances were based on your misinterpretations, they were still obviously all cases of .
And you have no right to b***h about insults, as you've participated in making inflammatory comments yourself.
NewtypeS3 You, sir, are the second-biggest hypocrite I've run across on the internet. And I honestly don't have the time or patience to bother with you anymore.
I might care about what you have to say...if this wasn't just an elaborate copout on your part, one aided by several more of your infamous misconceptions.
NewtypeS3 Oh, and before I leave this topic, Shani? You might wanna knnow something...
Going by your insecurity as evidenced by your inability to make a copout without trying to defend yourself at the same time, I doubt you'll be gone long.
And something you might want to know: running away and only responding to a select few things you think you can manage a good argument on may seem nice to you, but most people can see right through such a spineless tactic.
NewtypeS3 MS came before the N-Jammers. The reason the N-Jammers were used was because EA got panicky about the MS from ZAFT and equipped their Moebious MAs with Nukes. Not the other way around.
Oh well, then. Not like it hurt my argument at all, since it was actually an irrelevant point from the time you brought it up. biggrin
NewtypeS3 If you're so 'prepared' and 'ready' for arguing, how could you have missed that crucial fact?
Why would I be "prepared" for a moot topic? C'mon, use some common sense. Something doesn't become valid in a debate just because someone brought it up, it's not my fault you brought so many irrelevant things up based on your own misinterpretations.
NewtypeS3 Also... Seed is no better than Wing. Any unit that isn't piloted by a main character - or a pilot with a name - is instant cannon fodder. And the newest units automatically win against the older ones - even if the older units are less than 6 months old.
Another diversionary tactic...quite distasteful from someone who whines about me changing the subject, when I'd merely steered it away from the diversions and bullshit you were trying to pull.
And what's this bullshit about names? Of course they're going to put more emphasis on characters that they plan to have accomplish anything, because they aren't all used as mindless cannon fodder as they are in wing. How is SEED supposed to be faulted for actually displaying soldiers as human beings and not just faceless extras, as is done in wing? You may think it's clever to add the name thing in there, making it almost impossible to argue, but really it's just an unreasonable tactic. Despite that, however, several GuAIZ in the final battle of SEED took out named characters, the astray girls. This disproves your point.
Also, Duel was able to take out Forbidden, as much as it pains me. This debunks your second contention. Strike was also able to take out several newer ZAFT models when used as Kira went to space in Destiny, but OH SHI-, the suit actually took severe damage in the battle. That's quite a bit more realistic than wing, if you ask me. Oh, and Freedom took out Saviour and Destroy, as well as many other newer ZAFT models. I really don't see where you're getting that second point from.
NewtypeS3 In any case, you're not worth this anymore, Shani.
Funny that you're backing out so cowardly, when you're the one who initiated this with your childish taunt.
From this point forward, I'd suggest you live by the phrase "put up or shut up", because you'll only end up making yourself look bad when you run away from things you start.
Feel free to run away with your tail between your legs, now. |
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:43 am
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Poor Shani... what made you so bitchy and incapable of comprehending the idea of an opinion, much less capable of accepting the opinions of others?
See, you actually started this by telling me to respond to the points of contention you had with Wing. I responded. Things snowballed from there.
However, that doesn't mean I have to continue, Shani.
See, it doesn't matter what you say, what you call me, or anything. You're a random person on the internet who I will never meet in real life. And even if we met, I'd never recognize you, nor you me.
I honestly don't give a s**t if you insult Wing, much less hate it. I respect the opinions of others. However, I do at least like others to be decently informed before they make their opinions.
In any case, Shani, I know who I am. I'm NewtypeS3, age 20. I know where I am in life.
Unlike people I know, my life doesn't revolve around anime, Gundam, an internet message board or anything similar. I have a life - and I'm tired of wasting it butting heads with someone like you.
So, please, continue to insult Wing and all who support it. With you in charge, I now see why this is pratically a dead board.
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