Why are animals and their activites considered natural?

[Immanence]

****This is a a copy and paste of a post I made previously on the Extended Discussion fourms****

When people build a house, it is called man-made. When a bird makes a nest, it is considered to be natural. Did humans not go out, cut down trees from the forest, turn those trees into logs, cut those logs into planks, and build the house with them? Did humans not go out, mine rocks, and turn the rocks into concrete? Did we not use natural resources to make new resources, like glass and steel?

Did the bird not fly out, gather sticks and strings, and make a nest? Did it not use natural resources to construct a place for it to sleep, just like humans did?

Though humans building a house is much more complex and requires more production for several different materials, isn't it still doing what a bird does when it makes a nest? We use resources to build buildings, and birds use resources to build nests. A bird nest does not just appear by itself. It requires a bird to alter nature and build it.

Nature consists of forces such as water, wind, earthquakes, valcanoes, light, etc. But the biosphere is a whole different thing. The biosphere adapts and changes how nature looks. For instance, even a tree can adapt to its surroundings. Why is it considered natural for a tree to do this, when humans adapt to their surroundings also? Most living creatures use the resources around them, (or use their physical abilities) to their advantage and use them to sleep in, or for other purposes. A prarie dog digs using its paws. Humans dig using shovels.

Animals act and adapt very simular to how humans act and adapt. The major difference beetween animals and humans, is that humans can ask themselves "How did we get here?", or, "Why?" That is really the only major difference beetween us and other animals. Not fingers or thumbs, because monkeys have those. Not the ability to make tools, because primates make tools also. Not the ability to build houses, because birds, prarie dogs, hedgehogs, and several other animals do this also.

Or maybe the first people to use the term "manmade" simply used it as a term to organize what was made by other humans, and not by other species of animals. But either way, most people I meet believe that all the activites by animals are natural. If all activites of animals are natural, then doesn't this make everything done by humans also "natural"? Or, (as I believe) does it make all activites done by animals "un-natural", just as we consider human activites to be un-natural?  

[x3 SuGarr CoOkiie]

Although what we use to create houses or whatever else it may be is made from natural things, that does not mean what we are doing is natural. Metal found in it's pure form is natural. Although nails are created from something natural does not make them natural. Natural objects are objects presently found in nature untouched and unchanged by human hands. Sure a wood house is created by something present in nature but man disrupts the natural process by cutting the tree down and turning it into something that is not presently found in nature. Whereas a bird picks bits of twig that have already fallen naturally on the ground and uses whatever it can from its natural surroundings to create its nest; this is not altering nature.

The reason why it is natural for a tree to adapt is because -it is- natural. It is a trees right to alter and adjust to the surroundings that nursed it.
Humans are entitled to adapting, and they do. Much changes occur from a childs early stages in life and then later on. Humans also adjust to their surroundings by homeostasis, their bodies shiver when they are cold in order to warm them up. That is something natural. It is just the way we usually approach things. I.e. for when we are cold we usually do not wait to shiver and hope we get warm; we usually put on a coat or sweater. If another animals homeostasis was not enough their bodies adapt. E.x. in the winter felines get a thicker coat of fur, they don't get jackets or make shirts for themselves.  

[Niniva]

Quote:

Not fingers or thumbs, because monkeys have those. Not the ability to make tools, because primates make tools also. Not the ability to build houses, because birds, prarie dogs, hedgehogs, and several other animals do this also.

I didn't read what you wrote up there very carefully but I can tell you this statement here is false. Humans are the only species on the planet that have opposable thumbs (as in thumbs that are useful as thumbs) Primates may have something resembling a thumb in a similar position but they do not serve the same purpose. Nor do their primitive style tools.

To be put simply, having the faculties to learn and ask questions that are of a second order nature...the how's and why's are what sets us appart. Thinking....is essentially what we call it. Along with Opposable thumbs of course.  

[27x]

The reason we think that animals are natural, is that we think we are un-natural. The reason that is, is that we've slowly started to create unnatural things-sure plastic came from oil, but I would hardly call making plastic something natural.

When you look at a city, and you look at a birds nest, it's obvious which one is natural and which one isn't. The only difference is we want controll, birds want shelter.  

[Zarfione]

Requiem of Immanence

****This is a a copy and paste of a post I made previously on the Extended Discussion fourms****

When people build a house, it is called man-made. When a bird makes a nest, it is considered to be natural. Did humans not go out, cut down trees from the forest, turn those trees into logs, cut those logs into planks, and build the house with them? Did humans not go out, mine rocks, and turn the rocks into concrete? Did we not use natural resources to make new resources, like glass and steel?

Did the bird not fly out, gather sticks and strings, and make a nest? Did it not use natural resources to construct a place for it to sleep, just like humans did?

Though humans building a house is much more complex and requires more production for several different materials, isn't it still doing what a bird does when it makes a nest? We use resources to build buildings, and birds use resources to build nests. A bird nest does not just appear by itself. It requires a bird to alter nature and build it.

Nature consists of forces such as water, wind, earthquakes, valcanoes, light, etc. But the biosphere is a whole different thing. The biosphere adapts and changes how nature looks. For instance, even a tree can adapt to its surroundings. Why is it considered natural for a tree to do this, when humans adapt to their surroundings also? Most living creatures use the resources around them, (or use their physical abilities) to their advantage and use them to sleep in, or for other purposes. A prarie dog digs using its paws. Humans dig using shovels.

Animals act and adapt very simular to how humans act and adapt. The major difference beetween animals and humans, is that humans can ask themselves "How did we get here?", or, "Why?" That is really the only major difference beetween us and other animals. Not fingers or thumbs, because monkeys have those. Not the ability to make tools, because primates make tools also. Not the ability to build houses, because birds, prarie dogs, hedgehogs, and several other animals do this also.

Or maybe the first people to use the term "manmade" simply used it as a term to organize what was made by other humans, and not by other species of animals. But either way, most people I meet believe that all the activites by animals are natural. If all activites of animals are natural, then doesn't this make everything done by humans also "natural"? Or, (as I believe) does it make all activites done by animals "un-natural", just as we consider human activites to be un-natural?

Adapting is natural,which is caused by change.Change is natural.When something changes,its natural to adapt is it not?

However,you make a point.We make our homes and so does animals.But what we call,artificial,man-made is what we make.We are part of nature,but what we do is different according to some.  

[Niniva]

Ok, I think I've gotten the gist of the question here finally. It confused me at first because it just seems all too obvious to me but I think I understand now where your hang-up is.

Why is what animals do considered "natural"?

Well, wouldn't an equally similar and perhaps harder question to answer be:

Why ISN'T what humans do considered natural?

Because, we are, after all, always acting inside of our own nature are we not? We are all doing precisely what we are hardwired to do, and that thing is survive.

You spoke of a bird building a nest akin to a human building a house. That's very true and a good observation about birds and man, but here's the true question, are sticks and leaves and blades of grass manufactured? Do they require the bird to first build a factory and then learn chemistry and how to manipulate the "natural" way things exist into something like concrete for our floors or shingles for our roofs or glue, or steel, or a motor, or gasoline, or.......you get what I'm saying I'm sure.

Now, mankind makes it's mark on this world by taking the way "nature" (in the sense of mother nature) and its chemical components and breaking it down to its base properties and then re-organizing those properties into something useful for a specific situation. Could we survive without this? Certainly. I mean hell we didn't have concrete or pavement until what? early 20th century? We got along fine without it for man's debatable long existence on this planet. Do we NEED concrete? No, of course not, but it sure makes building houses a lot more efficient. And thus there you have it.

We call what the animals "do" natural because they are MERELY doing what they must to survive. A bird builds a nest to house its eggs because it NEEDS a nest to house them. They have adapted as best they can with the tools they were given in their tiny brains to realize a good protection for their little screaming babies with wide open mouths is a nest...so they go and they find things to build one with. But birds and bees and coconut trees (heh...) are not built with the one thing that sets man apart from all of the "natural" world...that would be Opposable thumbs....just kidding, no no no....the actual thing that sets us apart in all seriousness is our ability to question and reason which spawns also our creativity and desire to do things better and more efficiently.

Now....here's the real question....if man is hardwired with the ability to reason, and question, and be creative....then it is a naturally occurring thing. If it is naturally occurring then wouldn't it be.....Nature...that is responsible for all that we do?

For now we define "nature" as those things which are not man himself, or man-made.....for the sake of the word natural actually having a defining line I believe we choose to limit the word to those things....that would be why we call things in "nature" natural.  

[Raticiel]

Funny coincidence: please read my signature.

I think the nature/culture dualism just lies within our nature wink  

[Pinny Nickels]

I think the main confusion here is the difference between animals and humans; there is no difference.

Humans are yet another species of animal.

EDIT:
Although I can't deny that we're more advanced than the other animals known on our planet.
I guess it's also of how many times we can modify something until it's no longer "natural".  

[Raticiel]

Penny Nickels

I think the main confusion here is the difference between animals and humans; there is no difference.

Humans are yet another species of animal.

EDIT:
Although I can't deny that we're more advanced than the other animals known on our planet.
I guess it's also of how many times we can modify something until it's no longer "natural".

I agree with the first part. But I think if humans are natural (like animals, stones, trees and so) shouldn't everything they create also considered natural? When nature ends and culture starts? Humans are the only animals that think they're doing "something else". They provide culture, technics, religion... It's a complicated problem.