VezRoth
(?)Community Member
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- Posted: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:46:49 +0000
First post Updated as of 1:30am on Tuesday, December 13th 2005.
WARNING!
Whoever quotes the entire first Post from now on will be reported for Spamming the thread. This is too long of an entry and it is getting tiresome to have people come in and quote the first post and ruin the page because it was flooded with un-needed text that does not contribute to the conversation. You have been warned.
Resources and contacts.
This is where you can check a quick list of people I trust with providing reliable information about Vampires, and Vampirism. Please do not hesistate to PM these people with questions or comments:
VezRoth
SheWolfDanielle
Ges
SeanV
Nienna of the Valar
Niharana
Valdimyr
Talius43
KaisDarkTenshi
Akrinimblin
LegendaryKitten
Read this first before PMing me!
I am tired, incredibly, agonizingly tired of responding to the slew of PMs I have been recieving lately. These PMs are consisting of people telling me that they think they might be vampires, for those of you that are believing this... Do Not under any circumstances PM me. I am tired of trying to explain this to you all so I am going to enter this into the first part of the thread to make sure it is not missed. If I recieve a PM asking if I can tell you if you are a vampire or not your PM will be deleted immediatly and without question. You do not think you are a vampire, there is an irony in Vampirism: disbelief is the key to learning whether or not you are a vampire. Do not think you are a vampire, but understand that there may be a simple explanation to what you might be feeling. Disbelieve and you will learn the real truth. And now... the FAQ:
The Vampire and Vampirism FAQ
Vampires, vampirism, and the acts of feeding. How often do you hear about this from angst filled teenagers just screaming at the top of their lungs for attention? Or even worse yet, the movies, oh dear God! The movies, all of the movies about Dracula, all of the movies about Vlad the Impaler, and the various myths about how Dracula became who he was, movies ranging from the amusing antics of Lesley Neilson in "Dracula, Dead and Loving It" to the interesting theories and ideas presented in "Dracula 2000" where the mythical vampire was actually Judas Iscariot and why he is weak against what vampires are mythically weak against. I would suggest watching it, just because it is amusing and interesting at the same time, but I do digress from my original point.
I will provide no links, I will provide no specific outside information, I will provide only what you read here and I will offer only my opinions.The reason I do this is because I want to incite a discussion. How can this incite a discussion? Because I have only provided one side of a debate, one side of a discussion. Which means that you, the reader, must now make up your own minds whether to believe me or not. You must decide for yourselves if I am insane, or if I may just have a point. No facts, nothing testable, nothing that can be weighed and measured. Occam's Razor is firmly pressed to my throat and is drawing blood, however, I will say to you, the reader, that you need to take everything at face value, all you read here, is what you make of it. You will take what you want from what I present and I am not here to convert anyone into my belief, rather, just an attempt to inform and reform fluffies and people that do not understand what Vampirism in the modern sense is and not the historical, commonly accepted medical, or mythical sense.
Vampirism, in the modern sense, in the sense that it is an act of the soul and not the body is something that must be done, to be understood properly.
What is a vampire in my sense? First, for many vampires in the modern sense we believe in reincarnation, which explains all by itself some of our problems. A vampire is a soul that does not belong. Our soul is in either the wrong body, wrong plane of existence, or an incorrect planet. The soul has a natural resonance with the world and the plane it inhabits, if this resonance is disrupted the soul gains a leak. Which is the best analogy that I can give that will make some sense at all. The leak means that the body the soul inhabits is also weakened along with the soul, the soul helps maintain the body and the body helps maintain the soul, it is a symbiotic relationship that allows a person to live, learn and grow.
This leak is what causes the need to feed. We need to replenish the energy that our soul loses by taking it from others, generally other people, but sometimes, and to a lesser extent, the world around us. For myself, I have high points and I have low points when it comes to the world around me, during a full moon I am generally lacking in energy, and I am irritable. Not surprising, considering the fact that the mood changes of the full moon are well known throughout the world, and in many cultures, just consider that the Werewolf only comes out during the full moon. But I digress, for most people their soul resonates with the balance of the full moon and the planet they inhabit, for this case: Earth. For myself, the balance of the planet, the sun, and the moon only makes things worse and thus I feel even more down.
Why is everyone not a vampire? Because it is not always a botched reincarnation, most of the time, the soul is given to a body that is close enough to the world, or universe that it was in the previous existence. The reason a reincarnation is botched is because of the time of death of the old body, and the time of life of the new one. Souls, like people and most forms of life become comfortable with where they were, and are disturbed by what happens when they are moved suddenly. Granted, they know and realize the death of the body is coming but it is like moving out of the home you have lived in since birth suddenly. Just getting uprooted and moving somewhere new. Everything is different, from the food, to the air, to the people. Nothing is the same, think of it as Jet Lag for the soul. It needs to re-acclimate itself to where it has been moved to, which is a reason for why there are so few older vampires.
I myself, having realized my vampirism at an early age of 14 and by watching myself, and my changes as I got older I realized that things got easier as I got older. At 19 now with only a 5 year change I need to feed less and less and I have gotten better and better at retaining energy. �That is just an excuse! You are getting older and realize how stupid you were when you were younger and you are trying to make excuses to make yourself not look stupid anymore.� You might be thinking that now, but I can assure you, any excuses I make will be for someone else and not myself, too many fluffies in the community and not enough of them want to grow up. So they do not do so, and instead only drag the rest of us down with them. It is a sad existence but one that is somewhat needed.
Why do some "vampires" need blood and some do not? Well, that is a reasonably simple answer but with a difficult explanation, allow me to elaborate. Some feed on blood and some do not because of how their soul is set up. That is the answer, now for the explanation; my soul is set up in an alternate method of feeding because my body is naturally empathic. I can feel the emotions of others with a greater clarity than most, I can feel them across distance and without sight. Most people have a rudimentary version of this and it is usually based on the ability to see or contact the people some how, either by body language; movements, posture, expressions, or tone of voice. For some they have a deeper method of doing this but it requires them to look into someone's eyes, which makes it more accurate because the eyes are the window to the soul. But for me, I simply need to know the person well to feed from them. That is not to say I cannot feed from complete strangers, but that requires sight to make the connection between myself and them and siphon off some of the energy. But when I am connected to them the energy comes that much easier.
Those that feed from blood generally lack this ability, yes, they have the normal empathy but they do not have the deep connection to a person that an Empathic or Psychic Vampire has. Rather, they need the physical connection rather than the emotional one. Why blood though? And further, why human blood? Because the human is the body they occupy and as such they feel a stronger physical connection to the human than from an animal. Blood is not well processed by the human digestive system and if too much is swallowed the body rejects it by vomiting. Yes, that is true, but if you talk to a Sanguinarian Vampire you learn that they do not take that much blood. Is it unsanitary? Not at all, not usually anyway, first because their donor, and the vampire are not stupid, not usually anyway so they are both well tested for blood based pathogens. If you are a vampire and are reading this and Sanguinary and do not do this I strongly suggest you do so. Mistakes are not good to make in this regard.
Why blood though? What is the point of it? Well, in many cultures throughout history blood has been seen as having unique powers, the ability to impart the strength of an enemy into the victor was very common. Even in Cannibalistic views the point of eating their enemy was not to disrespect them, but rather, the opposite; to show them respect. The last surviving cannibals used to eat their dead before burying them because that was respectful to them, honoring them by taking them into you, making them a part of you. For warrior tribes cannibalism was seen as respecting your enemy and taking their strength into you by eating them, or eating parts of them. You would eat their eyes to gain their "vision" their hearts to gain their courage, and their brains to gain their wisdom. This is not quite like Sanguinarian feeding but it imparts the same basic principles, they feel the energy coming into them, they feel the changes in their demeanor and their body changing as their soul absorbs the energy from the donor.
Note that I say Donor and not victim or prey. A vampire will never take the blood from someone unwilling, that is not only cruel, but foolish and dangerous, both to the vampire and the victim. Blood born pathogens are dangerous and not to be looked at lightly. A donor is usually someone close to the vampire, usually a girlfriend or wife and they use it generally in the beginning or end of connective manner. Usually sexually involved, with blood play, the razors involved are usually disinfected and made sure to be clean. Some do it by biting but not many because the human mouth is rather unhealthy.
Do I ask you to take a lot in? Yes, yes I do. For the vampires reading this I want some input. Give me what you believe in a PM and I will edit the first post and add your thoughts, for those that want to be heard from by themselves please reply. All of you, those that doubt, those that believe, those with questions, please all of you can ask questions and I encourage it. Even the flamers I encourage to answer because I want to see what the other side believes. What do you feel about what I have put forward.
Some what I said was rambling but I am sorry, I am not used to writing this much at one time, but I will reply to any and all questions involved, so please, PM, reply, all are accepted willingly. Even through IMs, I have both AIM and MSN active whenever I am online. Also my e-mail is open as well.
I do need to add in one thing to this that is not a Question, this is not, nor does it have anything to do with Roleplaying. This is a serious discussion about a real topic, and not a roleplaying arena. Please, if you wish to do that I believe Gaia has a place devoted to doing so.
The Question Area
Do sanguinarian vampires survive on blood?
Simply put: No. They do not. Sanguinarian vampires survive by eating food, and drinking fluids. They do not drink blood to exist, rather they drink blood to stay healthy, the problem with sanguinarians is that it is the most common in movies and so it is the least accepted. Sanguinarians feed on blood because they have to do so, to keep their souls healthy. The soul effects the body and the body effects the soul. It is a symboitic relationship, which is why Sanguinarians feed: the blood goes into the body, but the soul takes the energy.
Ryu Takeshi
For your excelent artical on Vampires and such. Very impressive. Tell me (And I appologise if I simply skipped over it, I was pressed for time)
1. Why a wooden stake driven through the heart is used to kill vampires
A stake through the heart will kill any living thing. Vampires included.
2. Why they detest and dispise sunlight
This is part of the mythos and generally viewed as part of the medical disease associated with vampirism, which has a symptom that makes people vulnerable to the sunlight.
3. The first known Vampire report
Unknown. At least to me, I do not go by mythos any more, anything with the mythos of vampirism is just that: Myth.
4. How Dracula came into existance
Dracula, or the myth of him came from a warrior known as Vlad the Impaler. A psychotic man that did among other things use dead Christians as Candleabres. He also drank blood during his parties.
5. How a Vampire chooses their victim
We do not have victims, not usually at least. Only a very disturbed individual will feed from an unwilling person. Usually, a Sanguinarian will feed from a girlfriend, wife, or close friend. As a Psychic Vampire myself I feed from people's minds directly and I feed from friends.
6. Why were the souls re-incarnated imperfectly
As stated in the thread, I believe it had something to do with Availability. When the body the soul inhabited died it jumped to the next available body without thinking. I also believe that the jumping is generally because the body died un-naturally so that the soul did not have time to transfer itself by choice.
7. Why they are 'undead'
We are not. We are quite alive. But the myth of vampires being undead came during the middle ages when people were often buried alive. When grave robbers dug up the graves they found people with bloody fingernails and blood covered lips from them tryin go scramble out of the coffin.
8. Why exactly does the cross terrify and burn them
It does not. Now, granted, some of us do not like christianity but the religion is not painful to us. Watch the movie Dracula 2000 for a possible reason why. But remember, it is fiction not reality.
9. Same as 8 but with holy water
Same answer as 8.
10. How does one become a Vampire
You cannot be turned from human to vampire if that is what you mean. Rather, as stated in the thread it is a problem of the soul and not the body.
11. Why
Stated in the thread.
12. Is it true that Vampires originated from Transylvania
That is where Vlad the Impaler originated from, but vampires are known of throughout the world, at least in myth they are.
13. Why
Because all cultures try to explain strange things through myth to make them understandable. Vampirism is far less glamorous than the moves make it out to be.
14. List 5 of the most famous Vampires
Vampires are only famous because of movies.
15. Why do you know all of this.
Because I am one, and because I have done my research.
16. Is there a way to tell if you are a vampire or not?
There is, but for many it is something diffrent for each person. I found I was through speaking to people, I discovered my vampirisim by accident and discovered it by being in a situation where I could talk to a real vampire and he coached me through what to do. A good way to check is see if you are running low on energy, were you bouncy, happy, or up-beat? But you find yourself running down into the ground? Are you getting sick eaiser or not feeling well in general? It might be worth a try. I leave the method of feeding to the individual but I am willing to discuss my first method of feeding in PMs only.
Thank you sincerly for your time and dedication.
1. Why a wooden stake driven through the heart is used to kill vampires
A stake through the heart will kill any living thing. Vampires included.
2. Why they detest and dispise sunlight
This is part of the mythos and generally viewed as part of the medical disease associated with vampirism, which has a symptom that makes people vulnerable to the sunlight.
3. The first known Vampire report
Unknown. At least to me, I do not go by mythos any more, anything with the mythos of vampirism is just that: Myth.
4. How Dracula came into existance
Dracula, or the myth of him came from a warrior known as Vlad the Impaler. A psychotic man that did among other things use dead Christians as Candleabres. He also drank blood during his parties.
5. How a Vampire chooses their victim
We do not have victims, not usually at least. Only a very disturbed individual will feed from an unwilling person. Usually, a Sanguinarian will feed from a girlfriend, wife, or close friend. As a Psychic Vampire myself I feed from people's minds directly and I feed from friends.
6. Why were the souls re-incarnated imperfectly
As stated in the thread, I believe it had something to do with Availability. When the body the soul inhabited died it jumped to the next available body without thinking. I also believe that the jumping is generally because the body died un-naturally so that the soul did not have time to transfer itself by choice.
7. Why they are 'undead'
We are not. We are quite alive. But the myth of vampires being undead came during the middle ages when people were often buried alive. When grave robbers dug up the graves they found people with bloody fingernails and blood covered lips from them tryin go scramble out of the coffin.
8. Why exactly does the cross terrify and burn them
It does not. Now, granted, some of us do not like christianity but the religion is not painful to us. Watch the movie Dracula 2000 for a possible reason why. But remember, it is fiction not reality.
9. Same as 8 but with holy water
Same answer as 8.
10. How does one become a Vampire
You cannot be turned from human to vampire if that is what you mean. Rather, as stated in the thread it is a problem of the soul and not the body.
11. Why
Stated in the thread.
12. Is it true that Vampires originated from Transylvania
That is where Vlad the Impaler originated from, but vampires are known of throughout the world, at least in myth they are.
13. Why
Because all cultures try to explain strange things through myth to make them understandable. Vampirism is far less glamorous than the moves make it out to be.
14. List 5 of the most famous Vampires
Vampires are only famous because of movies.
15. Why do you know all of this.
Because I am one, and because I have done my research.
16. Is there a way to tell if you are a vampire or not?
There is, but for many it is something diffrent for each person. I found I was through speaking to people, I discovered my vampirisim by accident and discovered it by being in a situation where I could talk to a real vampire and he coached me through what to do. A good way to check is see if you are running low on energy, were you bouncy, happy, or up-beat? But you find yourself running down into the ground? Are you getting sick eaiser or not feeling well in general? It might be worth a try. I leave the method of feeding to the individual but I am willing to discuss my first method of feeding in PMs only.
Thank you sincerly for your time and dedication.
Dabbler
Question: What made you think in the first place that your syntoms were a result of your soul "being in the wrong body" or you being born at the wrong time, however you put it. What lead you to believe this, and how do you know?
(Just to say, I agree with you that this topic should not have been moved to the GD, you had obviously put some time into it and it was very well written.)
(Just to say, I agree with you that this topic should not have been moved to the GD, you had obviously put some time into it and it was very well written.)
I realized that I was in the wrong body through a series of rather... private events I will not go into. I can say they were traumatic, but did not involve me being molested in anyway. So, please, do not get the wrong impression.
After those events I reflected on what I had thought for so long... I thought so very differently, I believed in so many things differently, I watched and listened to the people around me and watched world events unfold and researched through history and just kept coming up with that overwhelming sense of wrongness.
The only way I really figured out that I was in a wrong place, or time was because of some very indepth "soul searching". I never used to believe in the power of meditation but I certainly feel that there is something to it now. Personal evidence is a very powerful thing that can change your mind very fast.
Ivan_the_Corrupted
You are not a vampire. Know why? Vampires are undead being created through a lost ritual which involves losing their soul. The soul contain the empathy and thus vampires are dark and evil predators. Also, they keep their identities secret to avoid destruction and to allow themselves to feed more easily, showing that no REAL vampire would've made this. People who claim to be vampires are just people who whine for attention and think that it makes them better because they have nothing else. This "vampire" as you describe it is a mental imbalance, nothing more. YOU ARE NOT A VAMPIRE!
You write about mythology my friend, not the truereality in which we live. As such, we vampires, the true ones are NOT undead, we are not created through a "lost ritual" which imbues us with power of the dead and makes us dark and evil predators. We have to pay the bills, we need to go to work, we love, hate, live, and breathe like all other humans on the planet. In body, we are just as human as everyone else. Our souls however are not, our souls are not lost through a dark ritual but simply through a mistake in the universe we live in at large, I will need to get a larger group of people together to ask, but since this is now on the front page I need to ask all of my fellow Vampires to PM me, I ask a simple question:
As regards to your soul, and why it has vampirisim do you believe it has anything to do with murder in the previous life? Do you believe that you were murdered in your last existence, or that somehow your life was cut short, either by accident or something of the sorts and your soul was transfered to a body that it was not prepared for?
I ask this of the Vampires, and I would even welcome any outside opinions as well.
Asthma Is Sexy
You're not in any position to be condescending, parasite-boy. Yeah, that's right. Even if vampires ARE real, I wouldn't be proud of being one, because vampires are little more than parasites. Like children. But then again, even most children grow up and stop living in fantasy worlds.
Actually, I am not a Parasite, nor is any actually practicing vampire that is not completely insane. We are Symbiotes, not Parasites. Both myself, and my donors benefit. I help balance out their emotional states by feeding, and I am kept healthy by feeding.
Thus, a symbiotic relationship.
A!ur AhTtekan
May I ask, what if my donor is also a vampire?
No problems should arise. It should be fine, just be sure that you are not draining too much from your vampiric donor or else it will be an endless cycle of feeding for both parties and neither of you will get anywhere.
Nucker
My only question for you is could you accept the fact that there is a possibility that you may not be a vampire?
Eaisly. I only take vampirism as the reason for my... condition, because it makes the most sense. If science could truly prove without a doubt that I have never had a life before this, that I never was murdered in that past life and that my soul does not need to borrow the energy of others in order to keep my body alive? I would hug and kiss said scientist. But sadly, it is difficult to prove the "metaphysical".
The "Vampire's Disease"
Lanie
*Sighs* Here we go again.
I am a vampire, rather, perhaps the closest thing to a vampiric blood sucking creature that you will ever meet. I have Congenital Erythropoietic Porphyria.
For those of you who do not know what this disease entails, porphyria is an inherited disease with many branches and types, the specific type that is related to vampirism is the rarest form, congenital erythropoietic porphyria. This disease can cause severe disfigurement, and has only been diagnosed offically 200 times. The victims of this form of porphyria have an extreme sensitively to light, and often avoid daylight all together.
Now to debunk many of the misconceptions about porphyria's relation to vampirism. Firstly this theory was originally created by biochemist David Dolphin in 1985, and his original theory was full of many incorrect and misconceived statements. A few of those remarks are:
1) Porphyria victims are extraordinarily sensitive to sunlight. Even mild exposure can cause severe disfigurement. Facial skin may scar, the nose and fingers may fall off, and the lips and gums may become so taut that the teeth project like fangs.
2) To avoid sunlight, people with serious cases of porphyria go out only at night, just like Dracula.
3) Today porphyria can be treated with injections of blood products. Centuries ago, porphyria victims might have sought to treat themselves by drinking blood.
4) Porphyria is inherited, but the symptoms may not manifest themselves until brought on by stress. Suppose a sibling with an active case of the disease bites you to quench his thirst for blood. Très stressful, non? Suddenly your own latent porphyria goes critical and you start growing fangs too.
5) Garlic contains a chemical that worsens porphyria symptoms, causing sufferers to avoid it. Just like vampires.
Many of these comments are completely false, vampires that were exhumed in the 1800's showed no cases of the severe disfigurement sufferers of congenital erythropoietic porphyria would have had. I will also note that vampires universally hating sunlight is a myth that was created by fiction writers, and is not part of the original myths.
Porphyria victims also do not crave blood, nor would injesting blood give them any relief to their illness, they receive special injections of blood and blood enzymes to help with their disease, so the idea that a porphyria victim would go seeking the blood of another person for relief is ridiculious.
And no one has proved that garlic has any effect on people who suffer from any form of porphyria. Also I'm sure many of you don't know that porphyria was also blamed for werewolves at one time.
My source: Remarks made by biologist David Dolphin taken from the Times.
http://www.icomm.ca/geneinfo/cep.htm
http://www.icongrouponline.com/health/Porphyria.html
I am a vampire, rather, perhaps the closest thing to a vampiric blood sucking creature that you will ever meet. I have Congenital Erythropoietic Porphyria.
For those of you who do not know what this disease entails, porphyria is an inherited disease with many branches and types, the specific type that is related to vampirism is the rarest form, congenital erythropoietic porphyria. This disease can cause severe disfigurement, and has only been diagnosed offically 200 times. The victims of this form of porphyria have an extreme sensitively to light, and often avoid daylight all together.
Now to debunk many of the misconceptions about porphyria's relation to vampirism. Firstly this theory was originally created by biochemist David Dolphin in 1985, and his original theory was full of many incorrect and misconceived statements. A few of those remarks are:
1) Porphyria victims are extraordinarily sensitive to sunlight. Even mild exposure can cause severe disfigurement. Facial skin may scar, the nose and fingers may fall off, and the lips and gums may become so taut that the teeth project like fangs.
2) To avoid sunlight, people with serious cases of porphyria go out only at night, just like Dracula.
3) Today porphyria can be treated with injections of blood products. Centuries ago, porphyria victims might have sought to treat themselves by drinking blood.
4) Porphyria is inherited, but the symptoms may not manifest themselves until brought on by stress. Suppose a sibling with an active case of the disease bites you to quench his thirst for blood. Très stressful, non? Suddenly your own latent porphyria goes critical and you start growing fangs too.
5) Garlic contains a chemical that worsens porphyria symptoms, causing sufferers to avoid it. Just like vampires.
Many of these comments are completely false, vampires that were exhumed in the 1800's showed no cases of the severe disfigurement sufferers of congenital erythropoietic porphyria would have had. I will also note that vampires universally hating sunlight is a myth that was created by fiction writers, and is not part of the original myths.
Porphyria victims also do not crave blood, nor would injesting blood give them any relief to their illness, they receive special injections of blood and blood enzymes to help with their disease, so the idea that a porphyria victim would go seeking the blood of another person for relief is ridiculious.
And no one has proved that garlic has any effect on people who suffer from any form of porphyria. Also I'm sure many of you don't know that porphyria was also blamed for werewolves at one time.
My source: Remarks made by biologist David Dolphin taken from the Times.
http://www.icomm.ca/geneinfo/cep.htm
http://www.icongrouponline.com/health/Porphyria.html
Poes Raven
Scientific Responce to Vamprisim:
Xeroderma Pigmentosum
A rare genetic defect in ultraviolet radiation induced DNA repair mechanisms; characterized by severe sensitivity to all sources of UV radiation (especially sunlight).
XP is categorized in at least eight complementation groups according to the capacity of the body to repair DNA. These groups (i.e., genetic subtypes) are labeled A through G, plus the XP variant: XPV. Groups A, C, D, and Variant make up over 90% of XP cases. Group A, for example, has the lowest level of DNA repair and the most neurological manifestations.
Wide range of symptoms
blistering or freckling on minimum sun exposure
premature aging of skin, lips, eyes, mouth and tongue; with significant increased incidence of cancer in these same areas
blindness resulting from eye lesions or surgery for skin cancer close to the eyes
progressive neurological complications including:
developmental disabilities
mental retardation
high frequency hearing loss, progressing to deafness
de Sanctis-Cacchione syndrome (rare)
Very rare
Prevalence is estimated at 1:1,000,000 in the United States. Certain populations have a higher prevalence. For example, in Japan, the prevalence is estimated as 1:100,000. Prevalence is increased in North Africa (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Libya, and Egypt) and the Middle East (Turkey, Israel, and Syria), especially in communities in which consanguinity is common. (reference)
Clinical diagnosis possible
Life threatening
The DNA damage is cumulative and irreversible
Greater than 1000-fold increased risk of skin cancer, or pre-cancerous tumors and mouth and eye tumors
Other disorders associated with defective DNA repair
Ataxia-Telangiectasia
Bloom Syndrome
Cockayne Syndrome
Fanconi Anemia
Trichothiodystrophy (TTD)
Other disorders characterized by light sensitivity
Drug-induced photosensitivity
Erythropoietic Protoporphyria (EPP)
Lupus (30% of cases)
Polymorphous Light Eruption (PLE)
Porphyria (general)
There is no cure for XP. The DNA damage is cumulative and irreversible. Management is limited to avoidance of exposure to damaging UV radiation by staying indoors with sunlight blocked out, and use of protective clothing, sunscreens and sunglasses. Also, avoid other known carcinogens.
Regular surveillance for and treatment of all neoplasms is very important.
For the most complete and up-to-date coverage of this disease, please refer to this GeneReviews article:
Xeroderma Pigmentosum
[XP Includes: DeSanctis-Cacchione Syndrome]
by Daniel J. Wattendorf, MD and Kenneth H. Kraemer, MD.
Physicians seeking information about xeroderma pigmentosum will find a chapter on the subject written by W Clark Lambert, Claude E Gagna, Santiago A Centurion, Hon Li in the MOSBY book: Treatment of Skin Disease, edited by Mark Lebwohl, Warren Heymann, John Berth-Jones and Ian Coulson. Copywrite 2002.
XP defined on other Websites (Please use BACK function to return to this site):
Google Directory
E-medicine
Another E-medicine article
Xeroderma Pigmentosum, Atlas of Genetics and Cytogenetics in Oncology and Haematology
Also, on this site, see:
Tips and information for XP patients and families
Living with XP, CS, and TTD
Some personal accounts provided by patients
An explanation of DNA Repair for patients and families
Understanding Ultraviolet (UV) radiation, its effects upon the XP patient, its measurement, and protection from UV are all extremely important. Please review these resources:
UV protection for persons with xeroderma pigmentosum (XP), An XP Society perspective
Regarding UV and the XP patient
Know your light sources
An Authoritative Scientific Review of Environmental and Health Effects of UV (Please use BACK function to return to this site.)
[To pronounce xeroderma, see this page.]
Not sure of diagnosis?
Parents of children who seem to have some kind of light or sun sensitivity may want to consult a dermatologist and discuss the following with their physicians:
Photosensitivity in children:
An approach to diagnosis and management
To students researching this subject for a school project:
Your interest in Xeroderma Pigmentosum is very important to us. It helps increase public awareness of XP.
The XP Society has only its founders as full-time staff. Volunteers help in many areas; but we simply do not have the resources to respond to individual requests for information. Our first responsibility is to XP patients and their families. We are confident that you will understand our situation and follow these suggestions to accomplish your research:
Review the entire contents of this site. You will find a Site Contents page accessible from our home page, as well as a Site Search facility and a link to a list of recently updated pages.
Use our Links page to find other related sites.
Use any of the popular Internet Search Engines. For example, a search on the two words, xeroderma pigmentosum, on Google will produce about ten screens of excellent resource material.
Exercise caution in selecting material. Is the source credible? Is the information current? Remember, XPS stands for XP Society, not the disease name or some other organization or foundation.
Please cite your sources. Include the name of the organization, the complete page URL, and date.
Respect copyright law. In the case of this site, all original material is Copyright XP Society, Inc. -- however we encourage the wide distribution of information found here. We do appreciate it when the source is cited.
Xeroderma Pigmentosum
A rare genetic defect in ultraviolet radiation induced DNA repair mechanisms; characterized by severe sensitivity to all sources of UV radiation (especially sunlight).
XP is categorized in at least eight complementation groups according to the capacity of the body to repair DNA. These groups (i.e., genetic subtypes) are labeled A through G, plus the XP variant: XPV. Groups A, C, D, and Variant make up over 90% of XP cases. Group A, for example, has the lowest level of DNA repair and the most neurological manifestations.
Wide range of symptoms
blistering or freckling on minimum sun exposure
premature aging of skin, lips, eyes, mouth and tongue; with significant increased incidence of cancer in these same areas
blindness resulting from eye lesions or surgery for skin cancer close to the eyes
progressive neurological complications including:
developmental disabilities
mental retardation
high frequency hearing loss, progressing to deafness
de Sanctis-Cacchione syndrome (rare)
Very rare
Prevalence is estimated at 1:1,000,000 in the United States. Certain populations have a higher prevalence. For example, in Japan, the prevalence is estimated as 1:100,000. Prevalence is increased in North Africa (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Libya, and Egypt) and the Middle East (Turkey, Israel, and Syria), especially in communities in which consanguinity is common. (reference)
Clinical diagnosis possible
Life threatening
The DNA damage is cumulative and irreversible
Greater than 1000-fold increased risk of skin cancer, or pre-cancerous tumors and mouth and eye tumors
Other disorders associated with defective DNA repair
Ataxia-Telangiectasia
Bloom Syndrome
Cockayne Syndrome
Fanconi Anemia
Trichothiodystrophy (TTD)
Other disorders characterized by light sensitivity
Drug-induced photosensitivity
Erythropoietic Protoporphyria (EPP)
Lupus (30% of cases)
Polymorphous Light Eruption (PLE)
Porphyria (general)
There is no cure for XP. The DNA damage is cumulative and irreversible. Management is limited to avoidance of exposure to damaging UV radiation by staying indoors with sunlight blocked out, and use of protective clothing, sunscreens and sunglasses. Also, avoid other known carcinogens.
Regular surveillance for and treatment of all neoplasms is very important.
For the most complete and up-to-date coverage of this disease, please refer to this GeneReviews article:
Xeroderma Pigmentosum
[XP Includes: DeSanctis-Cacchione Syndrome]
by Daniel J. Wattendorf, MD and Kenneth H. Kraemer, MD.
Physicians seeking information about xeroderma pigmentosum will find a chapter on the subject written by W Clark Lambert, Claude E Gagna, Santiago A Centurion, Hon Li in the MOSBY book: Treatment of Skin Disease, edited by Mark Lebwohl, Warren Heymann, John Berth-Jones and Ian Coulson. Copywrite 2002.
XP defined on other Websites (Please use BACK function to return to this site):
Google Directory
E-medicine
Another E-medicine article
Xeroderma Pigmentosum, Atlas of Genetics and Cytogenetics in Oncology and Haematology
Also, on this site, see:
Tips and information for XP patients and families
Living with XP, CS, and TTD
Some personal accounts provided by patients
An explanation of DNA Repair for patients and families
Understanding Ultraviolet (UV) radiation, its effects upon the XP patient, its measurement, and protection from UV are all extremely important. Please review these resources:
UV protection for persons with xeroderma pigmentosum (XP), An XP Society perspective
Regarding UV and the XP patient
Know your light sources
An Authoritative Scientific Review of Environmental and Health Effects of UV (Please use BACK function to return to this site.)
[To pronounce xeroderma, see this page.]
Not sure of diagnosis?
Parents of children who seem to have some kind of light or sun sensitivity may want to consult a dermatologist and discuss the following with their physicians:
Photosensitivity in children:
An approach to diagnosis and management
To students researching this subject for a school project:
Your interest in Xeroderma Pigmentosum is very important to us. It helps increase public awareness of XP.
The XP Society has only its founders as full-time staff. Volunteers help in many areas; but we simply do not have the resources to respond to individual requests for information. Our first responsibility is to XP patients and their families. We are confident that you will understand our situation and follow these suggestions to accomplish your research:
Review the entire contents of this site. You will find a Site Contents page accessible from our home page, as well as a Site Search facility and a link to a list of recently updated pages.
Use our Links page to find other related sites.
Use any of the popular Internet Search Engines. For example, a search on the two words, xeroderma pigmentosum, on Google will produce about ten screens of excellent resource material.
Exercise caution in selecting material. Is the source credible? Is the information current? Remember, XPS stands for XP Society, not the disease name or some other organization or foundation.
Please cite your sources. Include the name of the organization, the complete page URL, and date.
Respect copyright law. In the case of this site, all original material is Copyright XP Society, Inc. -- however we encourage the wide distribution of information found here. We do appreciate it when the source is cited.
SheWolfDanielle
MANiCAL
I have been to the sanguinarius site and been reading up on some of this and heres a question that so far i haven't really seen touched on..........If you plan on telling a close friend and perhaps ask them to be a donor how would you go about doing it? (most of what ive been to just says dont do it unless its a close personel friend)
Telling a friend that you're something other than the norm (whether it be vampire, otherkin, or something else) is always something best entered into with a careful step.
I find that the best way to start, is to make sure you know the friend really well, and feel fairly sure that they're the type of person that would be open to the idea of accepting you as something usually unheard of in society/hard to believe.
(I'm going to stop there, and go look up some information about how best to continue, which I will edit in momentarily. I know what works well for me, but then, I tend to hang around some rather um... different individuals. whee . Plus, I'm not a vampire, so it's best if I read up again before answering this in full.)
Some good questions to ask yourself:
Lord Donald Vladescu
"Confiding or Confessing?"
More than a few times I've seen posts about vampires grappling with the question of whether or not to tell a friend, family member, or significant other about their true nature. Is it because they want to share something very personal or confess a dirty secret? Of course, there is no pat answer, as every situation is different.
But since this question does come up, here are some questions to ask yourself that I believe might be helpful.
1) What is the motivation for wanting to reveal yourself? For your benefit, or the other person's?
2)Is it crucial for the sustaining or progressing of the relationship? (Crucial as in: "I love you honey, but I just found out I'm your brother." wink
3)If you feel that revealing yourself might put a rift in, or end the relatonship, which is better: keeping the person or keeping the secret?
4)Revealing yourself could jeopardize a relationship because the other person couldn't accept you a a vampire. What is it about this person or relationship that means so much to you that you feel the need to keep such a secret?
5)Would you deny or have to deny having vampire associates in order to keep your secret and relationship intact? If the answer is yes, could you live with that decision?
6)How long can you foresee having to keep this secret? Would you be able to last the duration?
This is not an endorsement for staying in or coming out of the coffin, as they say; just some hopefully thought-provoking questions. Any feedback?
More than a few times I've seen posts about vampires grappling with the question of whether or not to tell a friend, family member, or significant other about their true nature. Is it because they want to share something very personal or confess a dirty secret? Of course, there is no pat answer, as every situation is different.
But since this question does come up, here are some questions to ask yourself that I believe might be helpful.
1) What is the motivation for wanting to reveal yourself? For your benefit, or the other person's?
2)Is it crucial for the sustaining or progressing of the relationship? (Crucial as in: "I love you honey, but I just found out I'm your brother." wink
3)If you feel that revealing yourself might put a rift in, or end the relatonship, which is better: keeping the person or keeping the secret?
4)Revealing yourself could jeopardize a relationship because the other person couldn't accept you a a vampire. What is it about this person or relationship that means so much to you that you feel the need to keep such a secret?
5)Would you deny or have to deny having vampire associates in order to keep your secret and relationship intact? If the answer is yes, could you live with that decision?
6)How long can you foresee having to keep this secret? Would you be able to last the duration?
This is not an endorsement for staying in or coming out of the coffin, as they say; just some hopefully thought-provoking questions. Any feedback?
Being comfortable with yourself will help your friend be comfortable with what you are:
Sarah L. M. Dorrance
"Coming Out"
It's just like coming out of the closet as a witch, or as poly, or as non-hetero. Use common sense. Some people are not going to take it well. Others might react with alarm at first, but once they see that you are still you and basically normal, they'll change their preconceived notions and learn something about what the minority really is like as opposed to what the stereotype says. (Better yet, they'll stop trying to make judgments period.) Other people will be open minded and will say, "Huh. That's interesting." And that will be that.
If you are thinking of coming out (about ANY "alternative" aspect of your life) ask yourself first: Are you confident? Do you feel good about yourself? Do you accept this part of yourself and cherish it? Because if you have any fear or shame, people will pick up on it, and they'll see that you're a little defensive and will suspect that it's because you have a reason to be defensive and there really is something wrong about you. Don't come out unless you feel comfortable doing so.
It's just like coming out of the closet as a witch, or as poly, or as non-hetero. Use common sense. Some people are not going to take it well. Others might react with alarm at first, but once they see that you are still you and basically normal, they'll change their preconceived notions and learn something about what the minority really is like as opposed to what the stereotype says. (Better yet, they'll stop trying to make judgments period.) Other people will be open minded and will say, "Huh. That's interesting." And that will be that.
If you are thinking of coming out (about ANY "alternative" aspect of your life) ask yourself first: Are you confident? Do you feel good about yourself? Do you accept this part of yourself and cherish it? Because if you have any fear or shame, people will pick up on it, and they'll see that you're a little defensive and will suspect that it's because you have a reason to be defensive and there really is something wrong about you. Don't come out unless you feel comfortable doing so.
Once you're as certain as you can be that the friend will be open to the idea, and will handle the information fairly well, tell them gently. Make sure not to sound as though you want to force the idea on them in any way (it's pretty easy to come off sounding that way, take care). Let them know that you do honestly believe this, but it's their choice whether or not to take your word for it.
If you plan to ask your friend to be a donor from there, please, first of all, make SURE to read up on healthy methods for drinking blood. The human mouth is pretty darn nasty, and you don't want infections. You also don't want to be doing dangerous things with your blade/razor. After reading up on how best to USE the blade, test the blade you'l be using on yourself, first, to make sure it's really not too painful.
Give your friend long enough to let the information about you being a vampire sink in, and for them to grow comfortable with it. Long enough meaning probably -at least- a week, depending on the person (in other words, if they only need a week, they're one of those people that are so open minded their brain is in danger of falling out. Most people will probably need considerably more than that). If they still seem skittish about the idea after a long time, leave them alone when it comes to being a donor. If they're comfortable about it, then ask them if they wouldn't mind. Don't press them at all.
If they're up for being a donor, have them tested for diseases. It doesn't matter if they are a virgin or not. Get them tested. Human blood can carry all sorts of things (that can come from all sorts of places), HIV being only one of the worst. Just like an infection would suck, getting HIV or something else from your donor would suck.
One again, read that information on how to go about blood drinking in the safest manner possible. In fact, re-read it again after your friend agrees to being a donor if they're up for it and are found to be clean. (Sorry for the major emphasis on this, but I come from a family with a couple generations in health care. Even mild infections can turn very nasty very quickly.)
A good site for information on safe blood drinking methods:
http://www.sanguinarius.org/guide/blood/safe-feeding.shtml
exclaim If anyone wants to add anything on this subject, please do so. It would be FAR better to have too much information on this than not enough.
Hatchet Twit
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1. Why a wooden stake driven through the heart is used to kill vampires
A stake through the heart will kill any living thing. Vampires included.
A stake through the heart will kill any living thing. Vampires included.
A very blunt answer, but I'm sure not the answer most people seek. The answer to this question is simple: the Catholic church. To elaborate on this, we must look back into Europe's history. Since the dawn of time, there have been myths. Well, around the time of the Black Death, people were paranoid. They were afraid of the plague, and they were afraid to keep the dead, killed by the plague, near the living. Bodies were thrown out on to the streets, and there were collections where a buggy or something with wheels (pulled by animals such as horses or by men, most likely a wooden cart pulled by a horse) and the bodies would be stacked on top of each other to be carried out of urban areas for quick burial. The key here is quick. You have to understand that they wanted these bodies gone as quickly as possible. Now, there is a desease that causes one to seem dead (and you'll have to forgive me but after three years I have forgotten the name of this desease). This disease slowed breathing down to just about nothing, shut down your nervous system, and basicly left you paraylized for a while. To doctors back then, you were dead. They didn't know how to feel the weak pulse, and all bodily signs showed death. No pupilary response, no breath, no movement. But you could still hear and see everything. Provided your eyes were open that is. This was a rare disease. It still exists, but today doctors know you aren't dead. Back then, especially during the plague, you were buried alive only to "wake" in your coffin. Naturally, anyone with a will to live would scream and fight to get out. If you were poor, luckily you couldn't afford a coffin so all you'd have to do it dig yourself out of the ground. We still have a ways to go before we get to my reasoning here, but stay with me. So some people were buried alive for various reasons and dug themselves up. You can imagine the shock of seeing your just deceased neighbor walking around. Common people needed an explanation- and some goof decided it was vampires. So now we have people digging themselves up, and then people hunting them down and killing them "again". Now this had been going on long before the European plagues, and it had been happening worldwide. However, I choose only to explain the time of plagues. So these live people are hunted down, and the church refuses to give them a christian burial. Here's where it gets good. Skip a few hundred years, and you find that the Catholic church was the predominate religion at the time with one problem; people were losing faith in the Catholic church for various reasons. They left and the church, at the time losing it's hard earned power, decided it need to get people back. So the Catholic church PUBLICLY announces that vampires are real and that they can only be defeated with the power of God himself. Thus crosses and holy items. People started joining the church again out of fear. Later on, they find out that they were lied to and don't want to listen to the Catholic church any more. Instead of using holy items to fight the fear of vampirism, they turned to nature. Sunlight, stakes, and garlic among the most popular. That is why today stories depict stakes as being weapon of choice. And just to add a bit more, at that time vampirsm was still a fear among the common folk. There were slayers. They went around in graveyards and if they found some poor soul screaming or trying to get out from their grave, they would dig them up, stake them in the heart, burn them, behead them, and send them down the river. Just to be safe. There are horrifying accounts of slayers who say they watched the bodies squirm and bleed immensly after being staked until they finally stopped moving. Today, people think it's funny to joke saying "I'm a slayer and I'm going to kill you!" Well it's not so funny when you know it happened.
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2. Why they detest and dispise sunlight
This is part of the mythos and generally viewed as part of the medical disease associated with vampirism, which has a symptom that makes people vulnerable to the sunlight.
This is part of the mythos and generally viewed as part of the medical disease associated with vampirism, which has a symptom that makes people vulnerable to the sunlight.
True. Kinda. Some people have certain diseases where sunlight can be lifethreatening. Blood and medicine do not cure this. But not all people with this disease are vampires. Then there are the people who aren't sick. I personally can't go outside without sun glasses. Even going to the mail box, I get enough light in my eyes that when I could back in, I can't see anything but green for a minute or two. It keeps me from squinting all day too. Of course, there are people too that just don't like sunlight.
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4. How Dracula came into existance
Dracula, or the myth of him came from a warrior known as Vlad the Impaler. A psychotic man that did among other things use dead Christians as Candleabres. He also drank blood during his parties.
Dracula, or the myth of him came from a warrior known as Vlad the Impaler. A psychotic man that did among other things use dead Christians as Candleabres. He also drank blood during his parties.
Dracula was not the first fictional vampire. The first recorded vampire fiction story featuring a high class vampire was actually a ghost story. A few nobles had been traveling and because of a storm, had to stay the night in a mansion. They decided to tell ghost stories to pass the time- and so each made up a story. This was still the time when common people were afraid of the myth of vampires, so one of the men that told stories told a vampire story where a man and his friend are traveling. Something happens to one of them, and one of them ends up dying on the side of the road. He makes his friend swear that he won't tell anyone he died. So the surviving man goes home to find that his sister is about to get married- to his dead friend. So he goes mad with guilt trying to decide what to do. anyway.......one of the people listening to the ghost stories liked the story so much that he wrote it down when he returned home. That was the first high class vampire story. Later, someone thought they would use the basis of that high class vampire and vlad, who by the way would stake anyone (not just christians), to come up with the classical Dracula.
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8. Why exactly does the cross terrify and burn them
It does not. Now, granted, some of us do not like christianity but the religion is not painful to us. Watch the movie Dracula 2000 for a possible reason why. But remember, it is fiction not reality.
It does not. Now, granted, some of us do not like christianity but the religion is not painful to us. Watch the movie Dracula 2000 for a possible reason why. But remember, it is fiction not reality.
I haven't seen that movie (meant to...really!) but here is a more acurate answer. Mythical vampires are afraid of the cross because of how the Catholic church manipulated people. To modern day vampires, though some may not be Christian, they are not burned by the cross unless you put some sort of acid on it. But that would burn anyone. Same for holy water.
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10. How does one become a Vampire
You cannot be turned from human to vampire if that is what you mean. Rather, as stated in the thread it is a problem of the soul and not the body.
On this I do NOT agree at all. It depends on your type of vampirism and your beliefs. Some people believe in reincarnation, other vampires like myself are Christian and believe they have one life time. Others think they are hundreds of years old, and still more are just playing with your mind. Based upon my beliefs and research, vampirsm today is a mockery of what began the myths. Many people seek attention wearing fangs (expensive little buggers too..), black, capes, white make-up, and dressing in victorian clothes. There are just so many things we do that mock the past.... Then there's blood. Some people swear they drink energy, others drink blood. Blood drinking is for entertainment purposes only. I have met one person who would actually get sick if they didn't drink every day- even went to the hospital once- but this was a mental problem, not a disease. You can make yourself sick. I should know. I spent half of my high school days playing sick so I could keep an eye on my parents at home. As for the concept of "an incomplete soul", it is not to my research of belief system. I do not see that as the reality, but that is my personal belief. Because it is all a mock of the past, then why can a human not become a vampire? ALL VAMPIRES ARE HUMAN from the day they're born till the day they die. All of them are alive until true death occurs. Because it really is just a show, there are two ways to become a vampire.
1. just do it. You can do it spiritually, you can do it physicly, and you can do it mentally. You can dress the code, walk the walk, and find yourself a donor if you like. Perhaps even find vampire bars and clubs (rather underground though).
2. you can do it the mythical way and get another self proclaimed vampire to do this. I've heard of vampires being sired from sex, blood drinking, and blood mixing. Most popular is blood drinking; that is, drinking a bit from the sire. But this really is just an act. Tradition in a vampiric way, if you will.
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15. Why do you know all of this.
Because I am one, and because I have done my research.
16. Is there a way to tell if you are a vampire or not?
There is, but for many it is something diffrent for each person. I found I was through speaking to people, I discovered my vampirisim by accident and discovered it by being in a situation where I could talk to a real vampire and he coached me through what to do. A good way to check is see if you are running low on energy, were you bouncy, happy, or up-beat? But you find yourself running down into the ground? Are you getting sick eaiser or not feeling well in general? It might be worth a try. I leave the method of feeding to the individual but I am willing to discuss my first method of feeding in PMs only.
Thank you sincerly for your time and dedication.
Because I am one, and because I have done my research.
16. Is there a way to tell if you are a vampire or not?
There is, but for many it is something diffrent for each person. I found I was through speaking to people, I discovered my vampirisim by accident and discovered it by being in a situation where I could talk to a real vampire and he coached me through what to do. A good way to check is see if you are running low on energy, were you bouncy, happy, or up-beat? But you find yourself running down into the ground? Are you getting sick eaiser or not feeling well in general? It might be worth a try. I leave the method of feeding to the individual but I am willing to discuss my first method of feeding in PMs only.
Thank you sincerly for your time and dedication.
If you only limit your vampirism to a soul's expression of a "leak" or in the wrong body, then you have not done your research. Not near enough of it. As for determining vampirism, that's up to the individual. There is no one way to determine if you're a vampire. I've known since I was in my early teens- just never fit in, and always felt different in every way. I can say that I feel sick and "not well" in general but that is because of the stress induced by my ever so frustrating life. Blood doesn't help me with that.. but for me, there is something calming about seeing a shiny red drop drip. I like to watch it flow. My thing.
*takes breath* With that off my chest, my fingers hurt. @_@ I don't have the energy to explain all of myresearch, but I just have to hit one or two more points. I tried making a vampism thread as well and presented people with a simple question after providing extensive proof. "If the supposed "real' vampires were just normal people no where near being vampiric in most cases, then can modern vampires not be considered real vampires since the "real thing" was never real?" And of course I got this reply over and over again, and it seems you have.
"They aren't real!" "I don't believe in vampires." and my personal favorite: "that's a really good argument but I still don't believe in vampires". It's all about believing isn't it? I could show them a giant pumpkin but they still wouldn't believe it existed. An ever growing belief spread by people like ~The Missa~ ("They don't exist period , never did never will. People who think they are a vampire are just sad people with over active imginations. " wink
Please forgive my overly excessive post but I'm still not done. I have a lot to say on this topic. As for proof, it's all in the books. About the diseases, the origins of the myths; all of it. A scientist cannot just confirm vampirism. That's like trying to diagnose being gothic. It takes more than just wearing black. Ya know?Just like vampirism takes more than fangs and shades. Whoever it was on your thread (page 19 cool that said "well we ought to get a scientist to prove it to shut people up" needs to be ....how to kindly put it? shut up. words like that only encourage ignorance from people who already refuse to accept vampirism.
I truly hope you put at least some of this in that first post. Many people see soul vampirism as...well, something harder to believe than just folklore origins.
Please refer to Wikipe dia.Org for some more information on Vampires. Vampirism, and the differences between "Lifestylers" and Vampires.
VezRoth]As of today, Tuesday, December 13th 2005 I am requesting that this thread be locked but not deleted. I am going to add a link to this thread in my signature. I am sorry, but this is not getting anyone anywhere by having the conversation continue and it has simply devolved into an endless flame war on the side of the disbelievers and it has gotten to the point where my thread existing no longer really makes a difference.
Because people might eventually learn from from it is the only reason why I am asking it to be locked and not deleted.
Thankyou all for your time, patience and the efforts of all of those that have added to this th
Because people might eventually learn from from it is the only reason why I am asking it to be locked and not deleted.
Thankyou all for your time, patience and the efforts of all of those that have added to this th
z4tdaok8:74="VezRoth]As of today, Tuesday, December 13th 2005 I am requesting that this thread be locked but not deleted. I am going to add a link to this thread in my signature. I am sorry, but this is not getting anyone anywhere by having the conversation continue and it has simply devolved into an endless flame war on the side of the disbelievers and it has gotten to the point where my thread existing no longer really makes a difference.
Because people might eventually learn from from it is the only reason why I am asking it to be locked and not deleted.
Thankyou all for your time, patience and the efforts of all of those that have added to this thread.
Because people might eventually learn from from it is the only reason why I am asking it to be locked and not deleted.
Thankyou all for your time, patience and the efforts of all of those that have added to this thread.
