An Infinite Universe

[Eilea]

Okay, something for you guys to ponder while I go do my homework

A question chocomoogle posed to me last night:

If the universe is infinite, does it repeat itself?

I told hiim it does, because in infinity it has to repeat because infinity is so big, and he was like...wouldn't there be an infinite number of possibilities so it would never have to repeat?
So I told him once you traveled to the end of infinity, it would repeat, which is not possilbe because inifnity never ends.

So I wound up telling him infinity>infinity. After all, infinity+infinity=infinity

and he told me "infinity
so infinity /=/ infinity (/=/ is my funky "not equal" sign b/c i don't know how to do it on the computer....and alt+#### code would be helpful...)

and then he told me infinity<=>infinity and i was like NO! we just learned "<=>" in calculus means "iff". and "iff" means "if and only if". Yes, iff.

And I also told him infinity/=/possible

Anyway...the real questions here...would the universe repeat? is infinity possible? is infinity its own equivalent?

Ponderiffical biggrin

Nice talking to ya be back in a couple months!  

[CarmenSandiego]

*cough* define infitnite?

im not sure what it means excally but i'll try to answer your question..

If the universe is infinite, does it repeat itself?

if the universe was infinite it won't repeat itself.
i belive the universe isn't infinate, we only think it is because its so big, but not as big as we think it is.. i don't think the univerese is infinite.. but it does repeat itself...



(okay, im not sure what i said made sense, i'd probably have to check back and correct myself..)  

[Metal Gear Headshot]

Theoretically speaking, if Infinity is given an amount, then it is no longer infinity. Therefore, the equation "Infinity + Infinity = Infinity" is impossible.

Yes. I believe that the universe is infinite. Beyond one's comprehension.  

[Broken Thinker]

the universe is infinite if and only if it is. and if it is, we will never know and be left searching for an answer that is right in front of our face, but still not there. like 3.1415926535...... yada yada yada. if the universe is not infinite, then we will find out eventually and thus find the answer unless it repeats itself, in which case what will happen? will we have created an alternate universe some how? or just end up on the other side of the universe?
and with this in mind, what if the earth is flat? what if the roundness of earth from space is just light being bent due to gravity or magnetic fields or something? and it just repeats itself over and over continuously in all directions? so when you go around the world, you end up in an alternate existance. muwahaha.  

[Eilea]

hey i like that flat earth thing...lol

also...i think a real problem here is int eh definition of the word "universe"....

if we encompass universe to be everything that we know right now, then theer willl probably be more than one universe....
but if "universe" is everything that is out there....then there can only be one....okay, that didn't have much to do with my thing about the universe repeating...but i just had to get that out there...*cough*...lol ninja  

[dustfairie]

the issue with the question and entire issue is that both "universe" and "infinate" are concepts rather than defined entities. as you learn in algebra, you cannot solve the problem because it has only variables in the equation. if you knew what "universe" or "infinate" was, it would be possibe (in theory), but the absense of a defining factor leaves the question (practically and logically) undefined.

yes, in theory there is an answer for every question, but our limited capacity makes it impossible (highly unlikely) that we *can* answer it.

esectially it is like asking a blind person (blind from birth) to describe a color. even though they may understand what color is, and what sight it, the two are unable to be related within the conception of their capacity.

we are limited by experience and capacity once again...  

[Flammable Bait]

There's no proof that the universe is Infinate, just because we cannot reach the end of the universe (if one exists) then it would not repeat itself, as it is matter not numbers we are dealing with >.> and this is really brain deadly so i have a headache. Thanks heart  

[luftwafe]

SurvivingPyrodoxManiac...

There's no proof that the universe is Infinate, just because we cannot reach the end of the universe (if one exists) then it would not repeat itself, as it is matter not numbers we are dealing with >.> and this is really brain deadly so i have a headache. Thanks heart

"Note: this post is part of a war"
The notion of infinity and all dealings with the macro is not truly an occupation for the micro!  

[nightlight]

because of the number of entities in the universe, and the sheer size of it (whether infinite or not) has always led me to believe that there must be opportunity for life to exist elsewhere than just here. it seems silly that out of all the possibilities in the universe, only our little mudball planet supports life.  

[A Man Among Kings]

Science has proven that the universe is expanding.
Something cannot expand if it is infinite for it would already have gone forever and thus cannot go further.
There's no such thing as infinity+1.
But, that's just my theory.

 

[gypsymagus]

Well it does depend on definitions. If we define the universe "as we know it' (basics of physics & all) then I would say no it is not infinite. Either the universe will continue to expand until it begins to break down or it will collapse. Though if we allow for the collapse of stars & reforming of stars & a complete change of the universe from anything we could recognise, then sure.

In a related question, I have been wondering... If the universe is expanding, then what is it expanding into? What is beyond the edge of the universe that? Even if it is just truely empty space without light, any matter, ect... Would not that empty space still be part of the universe? Does it continue outward forever or does it create some sort of mobius stip of space/time? Does there come a point where the difference between infinite expansion & collapse become the same thing? Does the end of the universe become the beginning of either our own or a new universe? Some physicists have stated there are 11 dimensions to our universe with possibilities for multiple universes.  

[nightlight]

it would be kinda cool to look at the universe as a much larger version of the various celestial bodies inside it. the term escapes me at this time of night, i'll have to dig it up in my notes somewhere... but say... in the same way a star expands and expands until it eventually implodes and releases energy, could not the universe do the same thing on a grander scale? it could simply be its way of starting over, another cycle for the universe. along that train of thought, what if we weren't the first cycle the universe has been through? how far did a civilization actually get last time around? space travel? cold fusion? hehehe, kinda cool to think about.

incidentally... does anyone think black holes have a sort of 'white hole' counterpart somewhere in the universe that we just haven't discovered yet that is just constantly spitting light and matter out? as if the black hole was a stitch or tunnel through time and space?  

[emperor_Hikaru]

Well, the multiple-universes theory states that our universe is part of a network of many ever-expanding universes that are impossible to reach from one another, at least by space travel. There is also the theory that every choice you make creates a new universe and the one that time is really a series of momentary universes that we go through instantaniously. This makes it a little hard to say as any of them might have a diffrent answer.

However, if the universe is infinite than I think that no, it does not repeat itself.  

[The Almighty Bobbu]

This question, and a number of the points brought up in the responses, depend really on what we're talking about by 'infinite'.

Infinite can be both a concept or a true number - it can refer to the idea of a process which goes on indefinitely, or it can be a reference to a set of items, things or existences which have no end to them. Numbers can be used to show these two different meanings for 'infinity':

If we were to begin counting, aiming to get to the highest number (which does not exist), then we would undertake an infinite process, with no end. The entire process is something 'infinite'.

However, the 'number infinite' works like this (it's quite a famous example, though I can't recall right now who came up with it. I'm gonna state The Science Of Discworld III as my reference): A man has a hotel with an infinite number of rooms. Each room exists as a finite thing, but is part of an infinite series - just as the days of the week match the series of 'seven', so these rooms match the series of 'infinite'. Each room can only fit one person in, and each room is occupied.
So what happens when someone else comes along and wants a room? Simple - you move everyone up into the next room (person from room 1 into room 2, person from room 2 into room 3 etc) and put the newcomer into room 1. Why can you do this? Because there are infinite rooms. No matter how many times someone comes wanting a room, there will be room for them - infinity will in effect become bigger, but remain infinity. Even if an infinite number of people arrived, there would still be room for them, and there would remain an infinite (but a bigger infinite - but don't even try to get your head around that) number of rooms in the hotel.

Which is why there can be such a thing as infinity+1, and then again, there can't be. It depends on which type of infinity you're talking about.

So if we're asking 'Is the universe an infinite process?' then at the moment the good odds are on 'yes.' However, we will probably never know for sure, unless we manage to prove string theory right or wrong.

If we're asking whether it is infinite numerically, and therefore probably in volume, it appears that the answer is no - but on second glance it may be yes.. because infinity can indeed expand, as shown above.

Though here I'm using 'universe' in the modern context, which tends to mean 'The physical spacetime which we humans inhabit, and which obeys the rules of physics that we observe'. However, if we were to use it in the 'everything that exists' definition, then there is an uncertainty about whether or not the first definition is the same as the second definition. The 'multiverse' is a possibility brought onto being by quantum mechanics and string theory. However, it is very much a possibility. The physicists argue that in a universe which is infinite (and string theory implies this), then everything which is possible must therefore exist somewhere/when (spacetime is odd like that). However, not only are we uncertain of the infinite nature of the universe, but we are also unsure of the genuine applicability of this concept. Though the mathematics works well if we use a 'multiple worlds' perspective, there is no reason to assume that this is physically accurate - Newton's gravity works mathematically -up until the subatomic level where quantum takes over. So though we can trust the maths, it is clearly not a valid representation of the real world.

It's a bit of a Schroedinger's cat situation (search wikipedia if you're unfamiliar): though the maths say that the cat in the box is both living and dead, we know that this cannot be the case. What physicists say is that this means that the cat is living in one universe, and living in another - they 'reify' the physical equation used to work out whether the cat is alive or dead. But the evidence that supports the reification of this equation into a real universe model is non-existent. We must always remember that maths is a model, not the real thing.

Now, 'if the universe was infinite, would it repeat itself?' I'll use the first definition of universe to make things more sensible. Not if it were an infinite process: it would simply continue onwards. If it were infinite numerically, then this has very little bearing on whether it would repeat itself or not - it boils down to whether or not the universe will eventually contract after it's expansion.

Oh, and we know that the Earth is round because of the way it acts gravitationally. A curves in spacetime are caused by mass, and the curves create gravity. The only way the Earth could create the illusion of being round whilst being flat would in fact to not be flat, and to be far denser than it actually is. Plus, a flat Earth poses the standard problem - why have the seas not flown over the edge?  

[chaos_messenger5863]

I personally don't think that infinity repeats it's self because once you finished infinity then there would be an infinite number of more infinities, but what do I know I never counted to infinity maybe you can ask Chuck Norris I'm sure he's done it a couple of times.