Doomsday salvation

[27x]

I wonder if destorying the human race is actually a good way to destroy evil, and create a peacefull place.

Any one of us who have seen twelve monkeys might not be so willing to believe this, but consider it.

If we all die, the animals live in peace. However animals can still suffer. therefore perhaps destroying the entire earth would be a better soloution. That way everything would be peacefull and perfect. The universe would still have all the beutifull planets, except the one corroupt one.

I am not sugguesting that this is an option I would chose, but I have to admit that when I think about it, it has some validity.  

[Niniva]

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If we all die, the animals live in peace. However animals can still suffer. therefore perhaps destroying the entire earth would be a better soloution. That way everything would be peacefull and perfect. The universe would still have all the beutifull planets, except the one corroupt one.

Animals already live in peace, pretty much oblivious to human kind anyway.

I have to admit the human race and I don't get along very well, but this isn't very valid, if valid at all.

Getting rid of humans wouldn't have any affect on the "suffering" of animals as animals don't suffer because of humans anyway. (at least not naturally, of course some people just suck and go out in order to make them suffer).

The planet isn't any more corrupt then mars or venus and I don't know how you can make any claim that a rock with ridges and water and air on and around it can be "corrupted" at all. Things that have no "mind" to reason with cannot be "bad" or "good" or even suffer. Pain does not equal suffering. "suffering" is the term humans apply to things that make us uncomfortable to an extreme. To an animal, it just is what it is.

I'm not denying that they feel pain, but thats not the same as suffering. Suffering is an emotional response and it could be argued that since animals cannot reason that they feel only "hormonal" responses not true emotional ones.

Peaceful? Again, things in "nature" are already peaceful. Have you ever hiked up on a mountain, been to a city park, a grassy field, or even a zoo?

It's peaceful, serene....but these things are all subjective. They are based off your point of view. If you cannot get past the noise and hustle and bustle....view the lighter side, the brighter side....and see the peacfulness within the busy world then that is your subjective poragitive, not the fault of the human race.

In my humble opinion mankind may have ecosystemic affects on nature, but in reality nature adapts and is as peaceful and at ease as much as it ever has been.  

[27x]

There is a kind of boar in africa that has horns that don't stop growing. Eventualy the horns start boring into it's head, untill it dies. There are videos of these boars squirming and writhing for days untill they die.

When an insect goes into a spiders web, it is trapped from seconds to hours, and it has to wait as the spider comes and slowly injects poison into it.

Some snakes have venom that cause extreem pains before the victum dies, even in animals. Same with scorpions, and bees.

Many animals in africa will starve or die from thirst, because they can not find water.

Moreover, humans often intentionally bring suffering, and at greater levels. Torture, biological and phsycological warfare, rape, abuse, racism, neglect, killing, robbing, and more...

I am not trying to say that it is a good option. All I am trying to say is that just because we don't want our race to die, we usually immediatly reject ideas such as this.

Sure it's crazy, but it is an interesting idea.  

[Niniva]

I_27_04

There is a kind of boar in africa that has horns that don't stop growing. Eventualy the horns start boring into it's head, untill it dies. There are videos of these boars squirming and writhing for days untill they die.

And what would ridding the world of humans do to help that? Did we make the boar that way? Or was it simply natural? And is the boar really suffering or is it learning to accept it's natural fate? Suffering would suggest that it was aware of what was happening before hand and I am certain that the boar has no concept of the death and so it feels no suffering...it feels only pain and so it dies....in pain, not suffering. It doesn't feel human emotions and so it can't "wish the pain would end oh woe is me" all it can do is feel pain and learn to adapt or accept it's fate.

Quote:

When an insect goes into a spiders web, it is trapped from seconds to hours, and it has to wait as the spider comes and slowly injects poison into it.

Again not suffering. Natural order, it is...as they say...what it is and ridding the world of humans means this would go on over and over and over unblemished and be considered a part of what you early described as "peaceful".

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Some snakes have venom that cause extreem pains before the victum dies, even in animals. Same with scorpions, and bees.

That is because the snake would much rather have the animal thinking about how much it hurts rather then that the snake is going to eat it. Then again I'm just guessing here....snakes don't have desires...they have the instict to eat. It isn't as though the snake "wants" to hurt the thing before it kills it....I'm very certain the snake has never felt it's own bite before so I'm fairly certain it has no idea how it feels.

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Many animals in africa will starve or die from thirst, because they can not find water.

Again....no fault of man's. How would ridding the world of man solve this problem? Or is it a problem? I hardly think it is....that is what the animal gets for wandering off into the dessert where there is no food. This is also nature's natural way of keep populations limited within an ecosystem. There are more animals then it can support and so the animals die until they reach equilibrium.

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Moreover, humans often intentionally bring suffering, and at greater levels. Torture, biological and phsycological warfare, rape, abuse, racism, neglect, killing, robbing, and more...

Humans once again are the only species capable of reasoning. Therefore humans are the only things capable of figuring out that this is suffering. Yes...we are the only species that understands that these things are wrong and should not be done.....so it could be said that we create suffering and I would be inclined to agree.....but suffering is a term that is as manmade as torture is from man to man. Ridding the planet of man will not rid it of anything but it's sole reasoning species. To a non reasoning thing like an animal.......humans being here or not being here makes no difference. They simply will survive no matter what.

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I am not trying to say that it is a good option. All I am trying to say is that just because we don't want our race to die, we usually immediatly reject ideas such as this.

Sure it's crazy, but it is an interesting idea.

I am not rejecting the idea because I don't want our race to die....we would be quite well off if 50% of the planet met their doom tomorrow. But to say the world would be better or worse if we were gone is not sound. The world itself will simply adapt to us or to us not being here. That is the way of it with non reasoning things....they simply do what they can do to survive, oblivious to wants and desires in human terms.  

[27x]

Niniva

I_27_04

There is a kind of boar in africa that has horns that don't stop growing. Eventualy the horns start boring into it's head, untill it dies. There are videos of these boars squirming and writhing for days untill they die.

And what would ridding the world of humans do to help that? Did we make the boar that way? Or was it simply natural? And is the boar really suffering or is it learning to accept it's natural fate? Suffering would suggest that it was aware of what was happening before hand and I am certain that the boar has no concept of the death and so it feels no suffering...it feels only pain and so it dies....in pain, not suffering. It doesn't feel human emotions and so it can't "wish the pain would end oh woe is me" all it can do is feel pain and learn to adapt or accept it's fate.

Quote:

When an insect goes into a spiders web, it is trapped from seconds to hours, and it has to wait as the spider comes and slowly injects poison into it.

Again not suffering. Natural order, it is...as they say...what it is and ridding the world of humans means this would go on over and over and over unblemished and be considered a part of what you early described as "peaceful".

Quote:

Some snakes have venom that cause extreem pains before the victum dies, even in animals. Same with scorpions, and bees.

That is because the snake would much rather have the animal thinking about how much it hurts rather then that the snake is going to eat it. Then again I'm just guessing here....snakes don't have desires...they have the instict to eat. It isn't as though the snake "wants" to hurt the thing before it kills it....I'm very certain the snake has never felt it's own bite before so I'm fairly certain it has no idea how it feels.

Quote:

Many animals in africa will starve or die from thirst, because they can not find water.

Again....no fault of man's. How would ridding the world of man solve this problem? Or is it a problem? I hardly think it is....that is what the animal gets for wandering off into the dessert where there is no food. This is also nature's natural way of keep populations limited within an ecosystem. There are more animals then it can support and so the animals die until they reach equilibrium.

Quote:

Moreover, humans often intentionally bring suffering, and at greater levels. Torture, biological and phsycological warfare, rape, abuse, racism, neglect, killing, robbing, and more...

Humans once again are the only species capable of reasoning. Therefore humans are the only things capable of figuring out that this is suffering. Yes...we are the only species that understands that these things are wrong and should not be done.....so it could be said that we create suffering and I would be inclined to agree.....but suffering is a term that is as manmade as torture is from man to man. Ridding the planet of man will not rid it of anything but it's sole reasoning species. To a non reasoning thing like an animal.......humans being here or not being here makes no difference. They simply will survive no matter what.

Quote:

I am not trying to say that it is a good option. All I am trying to say is that just because we don't want our race to die, we usually immediatly reject ideas such as this.

Sure it's crazy, but it is an interesting idea.

I am not rejecting the idea because I don't want our race to die....we would be quite well off if 50% of the planet met their doom tomorrow. But to say the world would be better or worse if we were gone is not sound. The world itself will simply adapt to us or to us not being here. That is the way of it with non reasoning things....they simply do what they can do to survive, oblivious to wants and desires in human terms.

Firstly, I also said that a better option might be destroyign the entire world, not just humans. Secondly, If you do not believe that animals can possibly suffer when not by the hand of man, then I don't know how to convince you.  

[Niniva]

Quote:

Firstly, I also said that a better option might be destroyign the entire world, not just humans. Secondly, If you do not believe that animals can possibly suffer when not by the hand of man, then I don't know how to convince you.

In point of fact I would go so far as to say that animals do not even suffer BY the hand of man.

Suffering requires reason, you must REASON that hings could be better otherwise it is all you know and thus not suffering. Suffering in a philosophical sense can only occur when you know...and can long for....that which is better. An animal cannot do that so you cannot make it "suffer" in those terms. You can certainly cause it discomfort or pain, but not suffering.  

[27x]

Niniva

Quote:

Firstly, I also said that a better option might be destroyign the entire world, not just humans. Secondly, If you do not believe that animals can possibly suffer when not by the hand of man, then I don't know how to convince you.

In point of fact I would go so far as to say that animals do not even suffer BY the hand of man.

Suffering requires reason, you must REASON that hings could be better otherwise it is all you know and thus not suffering. Suffering in a philosophical sense can only occur when you know...and can long for....that which is better. An animal cannot do that so you cannot make it "suffer" in those terms. You can certainly cause it discomfort or pain, but not suffering.

Exactly. That is why the only suffering from animals is pain, and hormonal.  

[Niniva]

I_27_04

Niniva

Quote:

Firstly, I also said that a better option might be destroyign the entire world, not just humans. Secondly, If you do not believe that animals can possibly suffer when not by the hand of man, then I don't know how to convince you.

In point of fact I would go so far as to say that animals do not even suffer BY the hand of man.

Suffering requires reason, you must REASON that hings could be better otherwise it is all you know and thus not suffering. Suffering in a philosophical sense can only occur when you know...and can long for....that which is better. An animal cannot do that so you cannot make it "suffer" in those terms. You can certainly cause it discomfort or pain, but not suffering.

Exactly. That is why the only suffering from animals is pain, and hormonal.

Which is exactly why removing the human element from the world won't change a thing. The world will remain as is....only cleaner.  

[27x]

Niniva

I_27_04

Niniva

Quote:

Firstly, I also said that a better option might be destroyign the entire world, not just humans. Secondly, If you do not believe that animals can possibly suffer when not by the hand of man, then I don't know how to convince you.

In point of fact I would go so far as to say that animals do not even suffer BY the hand of man.

Suffering requires reason, you must REASON that hings could be better otherwise it is all you know and thus not suffering. Suffering in a philosophical sense can only occur when you know...and can long for....that which is better. An animal cannot do that so you cannot make it "suffer" in those terms. You can certainly cause it discomfort or pain, but not suffering.

Exactly. That is why the only suffering from animals is pain, and hormonal.

Which is exactly why removing the human element from the world won't change a thing. The world will remain as is....only cleaner.

I can understand your point that destorying the human element might not make the world cleaner. I do not however, understand your basis for the world being even cleaner with humans here. Please expand on that.  

[Niniva]

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I can understand your point that destorying the human element might not make the world cleaner. I do not however, understand your basis for the world being even cleaner with humans here. Please expand on that.

Actually I think you missread what I wrote.

Let me rephrase for more clearity.

If humans were not here the worlds ethical state would remain exactly as it is. Animals would remain unaffected. The only real change to the planet that WOULD occur IF humans dissapeared is that it WOULD be cleaner WITHOUT them.

That more clear?

Humans are dirty.....there's not arguement for that.  

[Master Ulthar]

So...you basicly agree with each other, but refuse to admit you do so.

If humans are the only animal that suffers, destroying the human race would obviously end suffering. Destroying the whole world would end animal pain, not because no animals or natural events would be left to inflict it, but because there would be nothing left to feel it.

Personally, I do not believe that humans are somehow special in our cognitive abilities. Other animals may not have the same sort of spiritual self-awareness as we do at the moment but we could get into a huge creationist/darwinism debate over whether such conscience could evolve in other species later.

But my main point is that the desire to live and happier emotions in all animals far outweighs the desire to end suffering. Happiness is better than simply the absence of suffering.  

[Arson Hiroha]

I suppose I'll play the Devil's Advocate here...

Who ever said that to eliminate suffering should be the ultimate goal? Yes, sorrow may hurt for the time being, but I'm not fully convinced it's an evil thing, let alone something to destroy the whole world over.

Sorrow is something every person deals with, but adversity is one of the greatest trainers in life. Suffering may seem bad at first, but it's the one thing that allows our happiness to truly matter. If an animal was never thirsty, they would never feel joy from drinking water after a long drought.

If a lover always succeeded in his triumphs, he would feel no value from that which he loves. In this case, it's that relief from a long period of loneliness that makes you feel truly alive. Casanova, Don Juan, De'Annunzio, they have all learned this. After all of their conquests, they sought the one woman who could resist them like the holy grail. This made capturing them all the sweeter. Casanova even went to the lengths of seducing a nun, in search of that which he was denied.

Although in the end, it's far deeper than the pursuits of Casanova or an animal at a brook. The hardships are what make us stronger, and for some of us, even more hopeful than before.

Thus, why destroy the world for sorrow and suffering? For in its duality, we hold the greatest treasure ever given to mankind: Hope for the Future.

If you were to kill the human race, and all the horrors of Pandora's Box, then perhaps you will end this suffering, perhaps not. Regardless, you would destroy the human race's greatest and most revered wealth. The abundance of Hope for prosperity.  

[27x]

Arson Hiroha

I suppose I'll play the Devil's Advocate here...

Who ever said that to eliminate suffering should be the ultimate goal? Yes, sorrow may hurt for the time being, but I'm not fully convinced it's an evil thing, let alone something to destroy the whole world over.

Sorrow is something every person deals with, but adversity is one of the greatest trainers in life. Suffering may seem bad at first, but it's the one thing that allows our happiness to truly matter. If an animal was never thirsty, they would never feel joy from drinking water after a long drought.

If a lover always succeeded in his triumphs, he would feel no value from that which he loves. In this case, it's that relief from a long period of loneliness that makes you feel truly alive. Casanova, Don Juan, De'Annunzio, they have all learned this. After all of their conquests, they sought the one woman who could resist them like the holy grail. This made capturing them all the sweeter. Casanova even went to the lengths of seducing a nun, in search of that which he was denied.

Although in the end, it's far deeper than the pursuits of Casanova or an animal at a brook. The hardships are what make us stronger, and for some of us, even more hopeful than before.

Thus, why destroy the world for sorrow and suffering? For in its duality, we hold the greatest treasure ever given to mankind: Hope for the Future.

If you were to kill the human race, and all the horrors of Pandora's Box, then perhaps you will end this suffering, perhaps not. Regardless, you would destroy the human race's greatest and most revered wealth. The abundance of Hope for prosperity.

Hahaha, I was waiting untill sombody would figure it out...  

[Part of the boundless]

Humanity's very exsistance is an utter joke. Most humans wouldn't stop to help their own species let alone another. Humans are destructive creatures, we take what we can because we can. We destroy things that are inconveint. When one looks at it, it is horribly sad to see what destruction has happened at human hands. The burning of fields, extermination of entire species, pollution which leads to mutation.

Fortunatly there is a lot of good people out there, some that would led you the shirt off their own backs. Problem is destroying humanity will result in the destruction of many that deserve life, that deserve the pleasures and pains that come with it. So really the only thing we can do is try to enforce good values on those around us and hope they learn and don't forget what has been taught.

As for destroying the whole world I must point out that at the rate we seem to be going with our weapons that may be sooner than you realize.  

[Arson Hiroha]

Part of the boundless

Humanity's very exsistance is an utter joke. Most humans wouldn't stop to help their own species let alone another. Humans are destructive creatures, we take what we can because we can. We destroy things that are inconveint. When one looks at it, it is horribly sad to see what destruction has happened at human hands. The burning of fields, extermination of entire species, pollution which leads to mutation.

Fortunatly there is a lot of good people out there, some that would led you the shirt off their own backs. Problem is destroying humanity will result in the destruction of many that deserve life, that deserve the pleasures and pains that come with it. So really the only thing we can do is try to enforce good values on those around us and hope they learn and don't forget what has been taught.

As for destroying the whole world I must point out that at the rate we seem to be going with our weapons that may be sooner than you realize.

A bit more pessimistic than the way I put it, but something I agree with...

As for the weapons, that is very possible, though likely not in our lifetime. Even though human beings can be seen as immoral or mostly immoral by nature, they are also motivated by fear, which is in a sense beyond morals and part of our biology. Mostly these weapons are used as deterrents; the destruction of the human race I wouldn't accredit to the creation of WMDs, or whatever you may call them, but who you give the shiny red button to. However, in America, we definately need an improvement to that one...

((Want to know what the WMD launch codes were from creation until 1975
(rough year)? Later onwhen they were declassified, they were revealed to be 00000000 (although it has been changed to a real code since then). Just look it up, and Enjoy your WMDs.))