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PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:57 pm


oh so Extravagant...



Upon reading a post in another thread I thought this would be a handy topic to have.
What has everyone heard about the Wiccan/Pagan arts that they don't think is quite right?
Or- practitioners, what crazy nonsense have you heard people spouting?
Post it here.
And if you have a question, we'll try to answer it for you.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:46 am


The biggest ones are Wicca and the Celtic religions, because they tend to be the most popular.

"Wicca is the old religion" always gets to me wink It's 60 years old, and that's it.

"Harm none!" is another one. The rede says "an it harm none, do what you will". All that does is say "if it doesn't harm, do what you like" and in no way prohibits harm.

"Wicca is Celtic" manages to get both of them in one go! wink There are a few elements Wicca draws from romantic notions of the Celts prominent in Gardner's youth, but there's very little overlap there.

"I'm a druid". The druids were a particular sort of caste or rank within Celtic society. They were doctors, lawyers, priests. Nowadays, we have doctors and lawyers. We have a different culture and society. There is no place for the druids. To take them out of their religion and culture is quite impossible. I understand there are people who follow different religions entirely who refer to themselves as druids as said religions have no other name, and while I certainly respect their religions and paths, taking the title "druid" is not appropriate.

"Fairies are nice!" I blame the Victorians for this one. Fae aren't small and sparkly, they are known to be very dangerous.... Changelings? Erl-king? Not nice. There are Irish people who won't say or type the word "Sidhe" for fear of attracting their attention.

"Witches don't curse, because of karma". Karma is a dharmic concept rather different from what people seem to think it is. It can't really be taken from its cultural and religious contexts, and doesn't have a place in Wicca and particularly not in witchcraft as a whole. Not all witches are Wiccans and many of them consider it essential to know how to curse, when to curse, and to do it if necessary.

"I don't curse, I just bind." Bindings mess hugely with someone's free will and, to my mind, are more unethical than a curse. On top of that people seem to think that, because they are not causing direct harm, they're home and dry. Binding someone's mind or soul is cruel, inhumane, and disgusting, and it annoys me that people do it as an alternative to cursing.

"Hekate is a crone goddess." A quick read of the lore should dispell this one. Hekate is a maiden goddess, she is called so several times and is depicted as a maiden in images.

Generally trying to apply the maiden-mother-crone to the vast majority pantheons is a recipe for disaster. Most deities don't fit in any of them particularly. Even if some do, others will not.

"Christian Wicca". Christianity is a monotheistic religion worshipping Yahweh. Wicca is an initiatory ditheistic fertility religion worshipping the Lord and Lady of the Isles. There's no real overlap, even with Neo-Wicca, which isn't initiatory and is more of a nature religion than a fertility religion. Christian witchcraft is totally possible. Christian Wicca is not. Mary is not a goddess, and no amount of wishing will make it so.

"I'm self-initiated!" Despite Cunningham being awesome, he falls at one particular post: self-initiation. Initiation requires a group to be initiated into. It must be performed by others as a way of welcoming you into that group. A solitary ritual would be better called a dedication, as you are dedicating yourself to a particular path. In the particular case of Wicca, it is especially impossible to be self-initiated.

There's also a misconception that a spell must be followed to the letter to work. You end up with people reading a spell direct from a bookand doing a lot of things that may feel uncomfortable, confusing, or meaningless to them. This is why I'm of the strong opinion that people should write their own spells. The spells of others are useful, because they can give you good ideas and you can work out what works for you particularly, but ingredients are all superfluous. Use what you like. All the tools and ingredients are meant to be doing is aiding you, and if they distract you then it won't work at all.

There's a problem with many people's soft polytheism in that they view the gods as interchangable. They're not. If you're a soft polytheist, fine, but please be respectful of the pantheons you are drawing from. Thorr is not Zeus. If you're drawing from a Wicca framework, be very aware that Wicca is a fertility religion and that this framework requires a pair of deities as consorts. Pairing two deities from different pantheons is a very bad idea, not to mention disrespectful. Be careful also with relations within one pantheon: Athena and Poseidon do not get along. In fact, Athena being a virgin goddess, it would not be appropriate to invoke her in a Wicca-based ritual at all xd

"I'm Irish so I'm a Celt". Being "Celtic" is a cultural thing, not a blood thing; family is relevant, certainly, but descent isn't really. I have Irish ancestry myself and I'm quite proud of my ancestors, but a Celt I am not. There's particular elements of tradition and culture that are very important, and that you only really understand if you live it. Language is also an important element of whether or not one is a Celt... and one is not simply a Celt, one is of one particular Celtic culture, as they differ.

"The runes are pictures on stones or wood." The Runes themselves are Mysteries, they are energies and fundamental elements of the universe that underlie everything. Those little symbols are just that - symbols of those energies, those mysteries. So when you engrave one and invoke its energy, for the love of gods know what you're doing. They are very powerful and must be properly understood. At all costs avoid the books of Ralph Blum and those who cite his work. He doesn't know the first thing about the runes. They cannot, absolutely cannot be removed from their religious and cultural context. To be understood you must understand them in the context of their culture.

Criminy, what else.... Oh, I personally tend to use the term "neo-Wicca" or "Tvaan" to refer to that religion based on the works of Cunningham and Buckland and so on that is popularly known as "Wicca". That's to distinguish it from Wicca proper, being initiatory, orthopraxic and lineaged through initiation to Gardner. I understand most people don't mean that when they say "Wicca", so I reply on the basis that they are referring to Neo-Wicca.

Sanguina Cruenta

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:51 am


oh so Extravagant...



All good points.
3nodding
I would have typed all that out if I wasn't so lazy when I made this thread last night, so thanks.

I think that it's very important for people to keep in mind that Wicca, despite all the logistics of how is was founded and publicity and books and WHATEVER, it's still a very personal religion.
Meaning that it's about what feels right for an individual. It's not so much about following a set structure for rituals and such laid out by other people.
I think a lot of people don't understand that.
If I write a spell that's comfortable and works well for me, that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:09 pm


Probably the most common and vicious accusations I've heard repeated over and over about paganism is that it's all about blood, human & animal sacrifice, sex (of all forms), drinking, drugs and (probably the funniest) dancing around naked is a must.

I admit, there are those of a more...perverse and darker dispositions whom are associated with paganism. However, they are not paganism. It's like with Islam. Just because there are one or two extremists that blow things up, doesn't mean they all do that. So, applying the same theory to paganism...just because there are some people who are that way inclined, it does not mean that all pagans are like them.

broken_joker


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:55 pm


oh so Extravagant...



Agreed, people stereotype too fast and easily and they always tend to pick out the bad in a group. Paganism/Wicca is no different.

On a side note: I always tell my mom I'm dancing around a fire naked when she asks me what I'm doing.
xd



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Magica Gothique: A Guild
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:55 pm


I haven't completely studied up on the Wicca religion because there aren't that many books around for me to read (and as of recently I have no time to read up on my religions and mythology).

However, I know enough of the religion to know that the "Wiccan Club" at my school is absolutely wrong and gives the rest of the school population the wrong idea of the Wicca religion.

I mean, they associated the peace sign with their club during club rush (a day in which everyone checks out school clubs)! I may be slightly wrong in this area, considering I am trying to remember things being said back in August/ September of last year, but they believed that the Ouija Board and Tarot Cards were tools of the trade. I was just astonished that my old "friend" founded such a thing and believes that it is the very definition of Wicca.

And with the stereotyping, that is very true. Bringing back the "Wiccan Club" example, we have been having a campus feud between our Christian club against the "Wiccan Club". Many people were calling for the death of the "Wiccan Club" because they associated it with the devil, demons, the Anti-Christ, etc.

Ara Llynn


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:59 pm


σн §σ €xтяαvαgαηт...



That's sad.
Tarot and the Ouija are certainly used as tools, but Wicca isn't founded on them O.o



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Magica Gothique: A Guild
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:01 pm


Like I said, it has been a while, so I may be misinformed.

Ara Llynn


Sanguina Cruenta

Eloquent Bloodsucker

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:01 am


Extravagantly Yours

Meaning that it's about what feels right for an individual. It's not so much about following a set structure for rituals and such laid out by other people.
I think a lot of people don't understand that.


Tvaan works that way, but only to a point. Ritual form is still important, but rituals differ in content from person to person.

Wicca itself isn't like that at all. Wicca is orthopraxic, meaning it is defined by "correct practise" - compare orthodoxy, "correct belief". To be a Wiccan, "of the Wica", you must perform the rituals exactly as they have been set out by Gardner and passed down from coven to coven.

That seems a little harsh at first, but once one becomes aware of the fact that Wicca is a mystery religion, and the experiential nature of the rites, the import of absolutely correct ritual becomes clear.


Quote:
If I write a spell that's comfortable and works well for me, that doesn't mean it's right for everyone.


Very true of witchcraft. Not true of ritual within the context of Wicca, however. wink
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:12 pm


σн §σ €xтяαvαgαηт...



Sanguina- I'm sorry to say but Wicca as a religion isn't just the teachings/whatever of Gardner. There are different sects if you will of Wicca, all with different guidelines/rituals/whatever.
And then there is solitary wicca which is and individual practicing on their own and following what feels right for them.

WICCA IS NOT SET IN STONE



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Magica Gothique: A Guild

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Twisted Maggot

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:10 pm


Sanguina Cruenta

"Fairies are nice!" I blame the Victorians for this one. Fae aren't small and sparkly, they are known to be very dangerous.... Changelings? Erl-king? Not nice. There are Irish people who won't say or type the word "Sidhe" for fear of attracting their attention.

*is partially offended* Not all Fae are dangerous. All the people who believe in Faeries either think they're microscopic, sparkly and nice, or evil that come from the depths of Hell. Neither are true. There are nice faeries and there are bad faeries.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:52 pm


Twisted Maggot
Sanguina Cruenta

"Fairies are nice!" I blame the Victorians for this one. Fae aren't small and sparkly, they are known to be very dangerous.... Changelings? Erl-king? Not nice. There are Irish people who won't say or type the word "Sidhe" for fear of attracting their attention.

*is partially offended* Not all Fae are dangerous. All the people who believe in Faeries either think they're microscopic, sparkly and nice, or evil that come from the depths of Hell. Neither are true. There are nice faeries and there are bad faeries.
тεℓℓ мε ωнαт ι αм αℓℓ αвouт...




You're right. The fae are varied. There are good and bad among both the Seelie and Unseelie courts.
Some are rather dangerous though, the Sidhe in particular.



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Adalyna

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2009 11:02 pm


Twisted Maggot
Sanguina Cruenta

"Fairies are nice!" I blame the Victorians for this one. Fae aren't small and sparkly, they are known to be very dangerous.... Changelings? Erl-king? Not nice. There are Irish people who won't say or type the word "Sidhe" for fear of attracting their attention.

*is partially offended* Not all Fae are dangerous. All the people who believe in Faeries either think they're microscopic, sparkly and nice, or evil that come from the depths of Hell. Neither are true. There are nice faeries and there are bad faeries.


I think it just depends on your particular paradigm involving faeries. Why would the Victorian idea of Fae be less valid than the Celtic one, save that the Celtic beliefs are older. I don't mean to split hairs with anyone here, its just Celtic traditions are closed traditions anyways, and I'm certainly not Celtic. If I want to believe that Faerie are nice in my particular belief system, or that they take a variety of forms and behaviors. Or are you saying that Faerie are specific to the Celtic beliefs? I don't mean these questions to split hairs with anyone at any rate, I just disagree on that particular point.

If you were to say "Celtic fairies are nice" as being a misconception I'd agree, or comparing Sidhe with modern fairies, as a misconception, I'd also agree. Otherwise I agree with most of Sanguina's Post.
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 9:39 pm


Extravagantly Yours
σн §σ €xтяαvαgαηт...



That's sad.
Tarot and the Ouija are certainly used as tools, but Wicca isn't founded on them O.o



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Magica Gothique: A Guild
And please know what you're doing before you mess with a Ouija board. For most folks it's not a problem but for some people, those things can open a whole lotta bad. It lets through just about anything. Most Practicing witches don't think of those as a game. Tarot, however can be many things from extremely personal divination to public fortune telling and yes, even a game. It really depends on how they speak to you.

Runa Whynd


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:09 pm


Extravagantly Yours
σн §σ €xтяαvαgαηт...



Sanguina- I'm sorry to say but Wicca as a religion isn't just the teachings/whatever of Gardner. There are different sects if you will of Wicca, all with different guidelines/rituals/whatever.
And then there is solitary wicca which is and individual practicing on their own and following what feels right for them.

WICCA IS NOT SET IN STONE



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Magica Gothique: A Guild



Neo-Wicca is not original Wicca, rather a newer concept of the religion founded on certain principles of original Wicca.

Neo-Wicca is "neopaganism" while original Wicca's more like "mesopagan." They're both not old-school, but original Wicca's got more backing.

Eclectic Neo-Wiccans are not original Wiccans. It's like saying Brujas and Brujos are Mambos and Houngans: Brujeria and Voudou can be compared, and are similar in many fashions... but they're not the same thing.

Even modern-day usage of Brujeria and Voudou have taken new fashions. The original "Wicca" refers to British Traditional Wicca, which is straight off of Gardner's and/or Sander's teachings.

Neo-Wicca pulls from a lot of other teachings as well as Traditional Wicca.
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