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Should Bush Be Impeached For Spying On American Citizens
  yes
  no
  just let usplay his daughters private phone call's on national t.v.
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Ithieldin

PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:43 pm


...and the whole scenario just keeps getting more dispicable, Bush and Cheney should both be impeached over this...the NSA and CIA gutted, and all the corprates involved forced to pay personal restitution if the depths of what is emerging is proven to be true...read this artical...these people are listening to everyone...not just suspected terrorists:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Congressional Republicans and Democrats demanded answers from the Bush administration Thursday about a government spy agency secretly collecting records of ordinary Americans' phone calls to build a database of every call made within the country.

Facing intense criticism from Congress, President Bush did not confirm the work of the National Security Agency but sought to assure Americans that their privacy is being "fiercely protected."

"We are not mining or trolling through the personal lives of innocent Americans," Bush said before leaving for a commencement address at Mississippi Gulf Coast Community College in Biloxi. (Transcript)

The disclosure could complicate Bush's bid to win confirmation of former NSA director Gen. Michael Hayden as CIA director.

The top-ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee said he was shocked by the revelation about the NSA.

"It is our government, it's not one party's government. It's America's government. Those entrusted with great power have a duty to answer to Americans what they are doing," Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont.

AT&T Corp., Verizon Communications Inc., and BellSouth Corp. telephone companies began turning over records of tens of millions of their customers' phone calls to the National Security Agency program shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, said USA Today, citing anonymous sources it said had direct knowledge of the arrangement.

The Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, said he would call the phone companies to appear before the panel "to find out exactly what is going on."

The companies said Thursday that they are protecting customers' privacy but have an obligation to assist law enforcement and government agencies in ensuring the nation's security. "We prize the trust our customers place in us. If and when AT&T is asked to help, we do so strictly within the law and under the most stringent conditions," the company said in a statement, echoed by the others.

Bush: U.S. intelligence targets terrorists
Bush did not confirm or deny the USA Today report. But he did say that U.S. intelligence targets terrorists and that the government does not listen to domestic telephone calls without court approval and that Congress has been briefed on intelligence programs.

He vowed to do everything in his power to fight terror and "we will do so within the laws of our country."

On Capitol Hill, several lawmakers expressed incredulity about the program, with some Republicans questioning its rationale and legal underpinning and several Democrats railing about the lack of congressional oversight.

"I don't know enough about the details except that I am willing to find out because I'm not sure why it would be necessary to keep and have that kind of information," said House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-South Carolina, told Fox News Channel: "The idea of collecting millions or thousands of phone numbers, how does that fit into following the enemy?"

Sen. d**k Durbin, D-Illinois, said bringing the telephone companies before the Judiciary Committee is an important step.

"We need more. We need to take this seriously, more seriously than some other matters that might come before the committee because our privacy as American citizens is at stake," Durbin said.

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Alabama, argued that the program "is not a warrantless wiretapping of the American people. I don't think this action is nearly as troublesome as being made out here, because they are not tapping our phones."

The program does not involve listening to or taping the calls. Instead it documents who talks to whom in personal and business calls, whether local or long distance, by tracking which numbers are called, the newspaper said.

No immediate response from NSA
The NSA and the Office of National Intelligence Director did not immediately respond to requests for comment.

NSA is the same spy agency that conducts the controversial domestic eavesdropping program that had been acknowledged earlier by Bush. The president said last year that he authorized the NSA to listen, without warrants, to international phone calls involving Americans suspected of terrorist links.

The report came as Hayden -- Bush's choice to take over leadership of the CIA -- had been scheduled to visit lawmakers on Capitol Hill Thursday. However, the meetings with Republican Sens. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska were postponed at the request of the White House, said congressional aides in the two Senate offices.

The White House offered no reason for the postponement to the lawmakers. Other meetings with lawmakers were still planned.

Hayden already faced criticism because of the NSA's secret domestic eavesdropping program. As head of the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005, Hayden also would have overseen the call-tracking program.

Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-California, who has spoken favorably of the nomination, said the latest revelation "is also going to present a growing impediment to the confirmation of Gen. Hayden."

The NSA wants the database of domestic call records to look for any patterns that might suggest terrorist activity, USA Today said.

Don Weber, a senior spokesman for the NSA, told the paper that the agency operates within the law, but would not comment further on its operations.

One big telecommunications company, Qwest, has refused to turn over records to the program, the newspaper said, because of privacy and legal concerns.  
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:25 am


Yeah, that's insane. But I think that's only one part of a long list of things Bush and Cheney should be impeached for.

I mean, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, they tried to impeach Clinton on the basis that he had sex with someone not his wife!! If that was the standard, Bush should have been gone in HIS FIRST TERM!

Ethan Dirtch
Crew


Makakoa

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:24 am


I voted for Al Gore.
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:58 am


Yes...it is one of many things....but I think they will have him solid on this one...and they can use the other issues to tack on countless additional charges Ethan.

As for Al Gore, I voted libertarian in 2000 and 2004, because I didn't care for what Kerry nor Gore did(their records)against what they said(there actions). If Gore where to run in 2008, and run like he has been acting since, talking straight forward about things instead of deffending the clinton administration to highlight his legacy, then I would vote for him. His straight forward talk on global warming and energy policy lately has been so sought after by me from a mainstream political figure that I almost cried(exageration).

Ithieldin


Entervixen

Dedicated Lunatic

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:19 am


My mom and I were talking about this yesterday. It's crazy, but if they really feel the need to track me, they are more than welcome to. I mean, how interesting can my life possibly be? If they feel the need to waste tax dollars to find out I regularly call like, three people, and other such things, they are more than welcome to. Doesn't mean I agree with them doing it, I just think it's rediculous they feel the need to.
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:47 am


It's true, you know. I mean, I think it's shitty that they need to look through everyone's phone records and stuff, but you have to understand that no one is personally sitting there and listening to every phone conversation that every person has. And if it's just records of incoming and outgoing calls, they're only scanning for certain things. Like, calls to or from the Middle East. And then they look more closely at those. Or, they run conversations through a machine that listens for words like "bomb," "jihad," "Al-Qaeda," &c. And if it hears a bunch of them in succession, they listen more closely to see if it's just some gossipy housewives or terrorists.

People seriously need to take a chill pill about this one. I mean, I'm pretty hardcore left-wing, but this one doesn't exactly have me up in arms. My phone calls are pretty boring, personally, so if they want to listen in, go ahead.

tragiccomedy


Ithieldin

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:25 am


I don't think so, and I will tell you why...let me think of an analogy..the democrats for a long while refused to limit partial birth abortions, or allow for people to be charged with double murder for killing a person because of what I call easter egg logic...you set a precedent with a step, and that justifies the next step...if the government aknowledges that your taking a life by killing a fetus, then you are justifying that abortion is murder and giving futher grounds for illegalizing abortion. We already know the government has lied to us in the past, this administration has lied at many steps..including justifying a war, and on this very subject. So, we justify the accumulation of personal knowledge now, and lets say the political and social landscape changes, from ecconomic collapse, from a serious terrorist attack, from a shift in the weather pattern, all serious possibilities, and martial law is declared. Bam...the executive branch has ton's of records it can now use to persecute it's dissenters. You think that sounds crazy, perhaps lets take a look at what happened in nazi germany. It took a long time for people to figure out just how the nazi's so effeciently swept into towns with lists of names identifying every jew by income, background, age, and ability, and send them so swiftly to forced labor camps with a job either a slave labor assignment ready for them, or terrmination if they were useless to their cause. They did it with census punch cards that were processed by an information gathering machine that was createdfo Hitler by IBM. Basically, one of the 1st things the nazi party did when it came to power was gather information on people and create a plan to use it against them in a swift and efficient manner. The easter egg hatches. Allot of people think I am crazy, but I am making an extreme proposition here, I am more likely to think that these people who have already stollen the presidency once in my own home state, who are preparing to rig the next election with electronic voting devices provided by a company which is akin to the republican party, will use this infromation to it's advantage to defeat oppositional thought if temped enough. Maybe not directly, but it will give them leads to look. Iside with Thomas Jefferson in saying that those whowill sacrifice liberty for security do not deserve to be free. I can also tell you this much, I have spoken about things over the phone, perhaps foolishly, that i do not want the government to have any idea about, or at least, certain key people publically....stuff that can ruin your reputation. With the Job I currently have, a job I have worked very hard to get, there is a cluase called conduct unbecoming, were since I am an officer of a public company, I can be terminated for my private activities if it despoils teh companies image. So lets say, I run for congress in ten years, and I was against thepolitical mainstream, you think it would not be advantegous to look at the last five years of my phone records so you could find a lead on were to track down someone, say...I cheated on my wife with, or, who was my gay lover, or, what ever, and pay them money to go public with their story? What do you think the whole watergate thing was about, nixon was fishing for information to destroy his political opponents...now, we have evidence that the president has possibly inappropriately used war time powers to break into people's private lives on a much bigger scale. To me, that is a much more devistating crime then the implications of watergate. I grew up in a political house hold, I can tell you that if politicans can get away with abusing what ever edge they have to maintain and grow their power, they will.
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:43 am


Arg! Super unreadable block o' text!

Anyway, sucks to be you guys, I get to sit here in England not being listened to! Isn't is great?

SkuIIy


Ithieldin

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:14 am


Yea..I know...once I get on a roll I ramble and don't shut up easily....thats why I used to remain largely quiet at the old gates...
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:35 pm


Liberte! Fraternite! Egalite!


If only... sweatdrop

Citizen Swooboo


GoldenRoya

Golden Roisterer

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 2:00 pm


You make a good point, Ithieldin. (or do you prefer to be called by another name?) It ISN'T good to set precidents like this. I may not care that the government knows that the only people I talk to on my phone is my family and maybe the pizza-delivery place, but if, in the future, it is discovered that some terrorist used the pizzas to deliver secret messages to his buddies or to plant a bomb in the courthouse, I wouldn't want to be fingered as a possible suspect just because I liked to spend Friday nights with a Bacardi and a pepperoni pizza.

You know where this could lead, though. You remember reading about (or living through) the Red Scare, where everyone was a possible Communist and anyone you knew could have turned you in? This is a technological equivalent; no need even to shake the suspects down for their lists of frequent contacts.
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:01 pm


I'm on the side of people that think that this is really no big deal. Bush should be impeached, but not over this. This information will never be used to ruin your reputation or arrest you for smoking pot, and it's not a slippery slope as some people said - McCarthy was able to twist public opinion to suit his fancy, with or without records of people, and was able to persecute "communists" for this reason.

"Bam...the executive branch has ton's of records it can now use to persecute it's dissenters. You think that sounds crazy, perhaps lets take a look at what happened in nazi germany. It took a long time for people to figure out just how the nazi's so effeciently swept into towns with lists of names identifying every jew by income, background, age, and ability, and send them so swiftly to forced labor camps with a job either a slave labor assignment ready for them, or terrmination if they were useless to their cause. They did it with census punch cards that were processed by an information gathering machine that was createdfo Hitler by IBM. Basically, one of the 1st things the nazi party did when it came to power was gather information on people and create a plan to use it against them in a swift and efficient manner. The easter egg hatches."

Err... we have a Census too, you know. And the government already assigns us an identity, with numbers and everything, and knows exactly where we live at all times, what type of car we drive, what we look like, how tall we are, if we're married and how many children, our income, our parents' income, our ethnic background, etc. They could easily do what the Nazis did, but they haven't. Phone tapping has absolutely nothing to do with this.

hiyayaywhopee


Ithieldin

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 6:56 pm


I understand that we have a census...but the way they did it back then was completely different from what I am talking about..but this is collecting private imformation at an unprecedented basis...it is illegal for the american government to spy on it's own citizens with out a warrent...they have dodge this for years, and still can..by letting the british spy on us, the canadians spy on the british, while we spy on the canadians, for example, and then exchange information. However, this is not spying for buzz words, this is compiling complete phone records of millions of people....I think mccarthyism is a great example...lots of people were socialists, and communists, and had the right to be...in addition...others were not and labled as such...we saw in post 911 how disenters were maimed as unpatriotic, and several peoples careers and reputations seriously ruined. I personally do not like the idea that they have thad access to the reords, nor the potential of what it can lead to...bottom line is, it's spying on citizens in an unwarrented fashion...so lets flip it around, what do you think they would do to me tommorow if I was guilty of espionage towards the government?
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:13 pm


To ellaborate on the whole macarthy thing...he used the whole red thing to identtify a common enemy, and crush political opponents...imagaine how more efficient he could have been if he had years of suppossedly private conversations documented?

Ithieldin


hiyayaywhopee

PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 7:43 pm


McCarthy would have been just as effective. Quite simply, he was playing on the fears of an entire population of people, not facts, because facts simply cannot create such a situation. All the phone conversations would have done would be to take place of the facts that McCarthy made up. You have to play on the emotions of people in order to achieve that degree of hysteria.

Quote:
imagaine how more efficient he could have been if he had years of suppossedly private conversations documented?

Whatever gave you that idea? Haven't they been logged by phone companies for years, and easily tapped besides?
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Metropolis

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