Free Will

[27x]

It looks like halenquine has beet us in the,"do we have free will debate", with her,"I'm still here", remark.

Well, I have another topic for us.


Supposing we do have free will for no reason at all. If that is the case, and somebody decides they don't have free will, does that sombody still have it?  

[Eva_Fan-Patt]

to quote Geddy Lee

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. I will choose the path that's right I will choose FREE WILL!"

MY view is that our greatest given to us by whatever it was that created life was free will. many people believe that many things will happen in your life and are set to happen, basically life is fated or chosen for them. However i disagree. My view is that we do choose happens in our lives, consciously or not. we live our lives based on the choices we make (again consciously or not) about experiences we deal with in our lives. The view that we have about our life and the decisions we made put us in certain situations, and it is believed that many of these situations we experience are pre-mediated in some form. (which may explain deajavu) And this makes it appear as if we have no control and that life is fated. One other view that supports this is that these choices are actually decisions in our minds of how we wish to accept the world around us, and that these decisions shape reality. However that is a subject of it's own and a discussion for another day xp  

[MegaTherion777]

Haloquine

So, you're arguing that even though it was causally determined, it was a choice dictated by free will?

I think most people would probably argue that if you couldn't have chosen differently, then it isn't really a choice, and if you were determined to 'choose' mayhem then you couldn't have chosen otherwise, hence no choice. Therefore, given that the ability to choose seems to be how you are thinking of free will (yes? no?) without choice, theres no free will.

If it is a 'random' choice, how is it a free choice? How can you be sure there weren't hundreds of 'subconscious' factors causing you to make that choice?

Unless you want to redefine free will?

It depends on what you think of as free will, if you're happy to say that you had no choice but it was still free will, then thats fine, although it sounds odd and I'd ask why you think that.

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On the other hand, we can argue that we obviously have free will because we do make choices, even if those choices are determined by something outside ourselves they are still our choices...

The question here is whether this actually is still free will... as I said above, if the choices are determined, how are they really choices? Which is why I then said this;

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...but then I guess it depends on how 'free' you want your 'free will' and how circular you want your arguing.

Its circular because you seem to argue that free will exists because we make choices, and we can make choices because we have free will.

the choice between mayhem and 50 cent may have been causally determined, but between bob marley and mayhem it was made freely. there was, however, nothing to causally determine my choice between mayhem and bob marley. no underlying preference or dislike, no "i'm in the mood for this or that," i simply chose. if i did not have free will, i would not be able to make this choice, because without some underlying preference i would sit and debate with myself over which to listen to all day and into the night, and would never reach a conclusion. we do not have free will simply because we can make choices - all i am saying is that choices are an indication of free will.  

[MegaTherion777]

I_27_04

It looks like halenquine has beet us in the,"do we have free will debate", with her,"I'm still here", remark.

Well, I have another topic for us.


Supposing we do have free will for no reason at all. If that is the case, and somebody decides they don't have free will, does that sombody still have it?

those people make a choice - they choose not to believe in free will. they choose to listen to the tarot deck or the horoscope or miss cleo or someone else who has "contact" with the "fates" and choose to shape their lives around that. whether they realize it or not, they are using their own free will to shape a life of complacency to what others want them to do. because if they believe in fate, and someone says they are fated to do something, then they will do it simply because they can't imagine NOT doing it.

the only way to prove we don't have free will would be for one of these people to consciously try NOT to do something someone told them they were fated to do. if they STILL end up doing it, despite all efforts to avoid it, then perhaps fate is real.  

[Haloquine]

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the choice between mayhem and 50 cent may have been causally determined, but between bob marley and mayhem it was made freely. there was, however, nothing to causally determine my choice between mayhem and bob marley. no underlying preference or dislike, no "i'm in the mood for this or that," i simply chose. if i did not have free will, i would not be able to make this choice, because without some underlying preference i would sit and debate with myself over which to listen to all day and into the night, and would never reach a conclusion.

Urm. Not necessarily. Your choice between marley and mahem may well have been caused by other determining factors... including brain stuff, but also including things you saw subconsciously during the day. You might have seen more references to metal, or mayhem during the previous week. Or saw things associating Bob with things you didn't feel like. Perhaps the colour of the mayhem album was one you'd seen more often than the marley album cover, and so there was something in your mind that went 'oooh, familiar', and familiar being something that attracts us on an instinctive level, you chose that.

Even where there is no obvious cause there may be a cause.

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we do not have free will simply because we can make choices - all i am saying is that choices are an indication of free will.

If we can prove they are actually choices, and you define free will as being able to make choices, then yes, you will have proved free will. I think the problem is that free will is based on Free choices, not just 'choices'.

If you did not have free will you wouldn't necessarily sit there never being able to make a decision, you would simply pick up the CD you were caused to and listen to it. Or stand dithering because you were caused to dither.

Complete free will may well be more likely to make you dither, because without any kind of causality you would be able to choose anything. Too many choices tend to short circuit decision making, in my experience! wink  

[Haloquine]

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those people make a choice - they choose not to believe in free will.

I agree! Say we have free will, assuming that free will is the freedom to make our own choices, then we still can make our own choices, even if we don't believe we can. Also, we may even continue using our free will to make choices, even while believing that we are caused to make these choices.

I'm not sure about this though;

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they choose to listen to the tarot deck or the horoscope or miss cleo or someone else who has "contact" with the "fates" and choose to shape their lives around that. whether they realize it or not, they are using their own free will to shape a life of complacency to what others want them to do. because if they believe in fate, and someone says they are fated to do something, then they will do it simply because they can't imagine NOT doing it.

Not believing in free will doesn't necessitate believing in fate, or horoscopes (which are two different things). You could believe in determinism instead of fate... that you are caused to do things by what happened before. Or that you are predisposed towards certain things but what you actually do is not completely determined, but is not chosen freely - there is an element of randomness. Also, while you may not believe you have free will, you don't have to believe that anyone, even Miss Cleo, has the power to see what you will do.

It is also possible to believe in fate and free will at the same time. In this view the fate is the big picture, wherein certain things are mapped out in advance. You have free will with regards to certain things, generally smaller, and if you work hard enough, even some things that are fated can be changed.  

[MegaTherion777]

Haloquine

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those people make a choice - they choose not to believe in free will.

I agree! Say we have free will, assuming that free will is the freedom to make our own choices, then we still can make our own choices, even if we don't believe we can. Also, we may even continue using our free will to make choices, even while believing that we are caused to make these choices.

I'm not sure about this though;

Quote:

they choose to listen to the tarot deck or the horoscope or miss cleo or someone else who has "contact" with the "fates" and choose to shape their lives around that. whether they realize it or not, they are using their own free will to shape a life of complacency to what others want them to do. because if they believe in fate, and someone says they are fated to do something, then they will do it simply because they can't imagine NOT doing it.

Not believing in free will doesn't necessitate believing in fate, or horoscopes (which are two different things). You could believe in determinism instead of fate... that you are caused to do things by what happened before. Or that you are predisposed towards certain things but what you actually do is not completely determined, but is not chosen freely - there is an element of randomness. Also, while you may not believe you have free will, you don't have to believe that anyone, even Miss Cleo, has the power to see what you will do.

It is also possible to believe in fate and free will at the same time. In this view the fate is the big picture, wherein certain things are mapped out in advance. You have free will with regards to certain things, generally smaller, and if you work hard enough, even some things that are fated can be changed.

i think you miss the point. i didnt say that my example applied to everyone who didn't believe in free will. it was just an example. you seem to treat my examples as if i think they apply to the entire universe. they are just small examples. it was easier for me to explain how someone who believes in the tarot or in horoscopes could still exercise free will under the mistaken notion that they didn't have free will than it was for me to think of an example that applied to a determinist. so i used one example instead of the other. focus more on the point and less on the examples i use to illustrate said point.  

[Eva_Fan-Patt]

I_27_04

Supposing we do have free will for no reason at all. If that is the case, and somebody decides they don't have free will, does that sombody still have it?

having something and accepting the belief of having something are two different things. who to say were no all really computer programs or whatever (srry had to bring matrix sort of idea about) but we believe our selves to be as we accept ourselves. so in other words who could say  

[Haloquine]

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i didnt say that my example applied to everyone who didn't believe in free will. it was just an example. you seem to treat my examples as if i think they apply to the entire universe

My apologies. The way you presented your example seemed to me to imply that you were applying it to everyone... which is why I disagreed with the particulars of it. It also unfortunately reminded me of negative stereotypes which I've come across about people who practice fortune telling, and so I felt the need to question what you were saying. Happily it seems I was questioning your phrasing rather than your intention. smile

I'm not sure where else I've taken your examples as generalisations, but if I have its only because your phrasing seems to me to imply universals rather than examples! (I'm not saying this is your fault, just that its my reading of your words). I'll try and bear my tendency in mind.

On the other hand, I do have a habit of questioning things just to make sure. Please don't take my comments personally! smile  

[MegaTherion777]

Haloquine

Quote:

i didnt say that my example applied to everyone who didn't believe in free will. it was just an example. you seem to treat my examples as if i think they apply to the entire universe

My apologies. The way you presented your example seemed to me to imply that you were applying it to everyone... which is why I disagreed with the particulars of it. It also unfortunately reminded me of negative stereotypes which I've come across about people who practice fortune telling, and so I felt the need to question what you were saying. Happily it seems I was questioning your phrasing rather than your intention. smile

I'm not sure where else I've taken your examples as generalisations, but if I have its only because your phrasing seems to me to imply universals rather than examples! (I'm not saying this is your fault, just that its my reading of your words). I'll try and bear my tendency in mind.

On the other hand, I do have a habit of questioning things just to make sure. Please don't take my comments personally! smile

no, i wasnt taking these comments personally - just clarifying that these are limited examples. and perhaps i should have used the singular rather than the plural, but oh well, i already submitted the comment and gotten a reply, im not going to go back and change it now xp  

[AbrAbraxas]

wow, i missed a good long thread and everything i could hope to say on the subject has been said. from the first post i have understood Haloquine because she has said what i could not seem to put into words, an endless cycle of ifs & thens, a truly valuable paradox. i commend her for doing the difficult work of explaining it well.

free will or not, it doesnt matter, because we are here. now to examine the topic more deeply, in daily activity try and separate distinct choices from involuntary ones. how many are there of each? could some of your subconscious actions actually be chosen?

...something else.. so what!? if there is no free will and we are determined by some outside force. so what? how would your behavior change, what would change? what could change? in my opinion nothing would change.. except the way that you see the world.
now imagine that you do have free will and that your whole life is the product of your choice and that every choice is equally important. every choice is a brick in a wall or a road, and every thought and action is our responsibility. that puts determination in our hands, we determine everything not through the magic of manipulation of changing thing to fit our imagined world but by the magic of awareness by becoming aware enough and responsible for our every fiber of being. we use the tools that are a part of what we are, the conscious mind which does not seem to be fully developed in other animals, but it might be our arrogance that we do not see such in other animals. this tool is a rare thing in our world, a fully adaptable mind, capable of imagining and creating worlds. the responsibility to use this tool properly is our greatest task as human animals. we can see littered through history good reasons for mastering our tools and putting them towards the highest ideal because it is a dangerous thing.

though i got off the point, i prefer the latter xd

also an excellent quote from eva-fan-patt. here is mine:

"with great power comes great responsibility." - Uncle Ben, from spider-man