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 Posted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:34 pm
Okay, I don't get this post!
Why are we discussing "how (we) feel about straight people"? If we don't want to invite their thoughts and imposed impressions on us, why should we then voice an opinion on them based on sexuality? Why not just ask "How do you guys feel about the Chinese?" That's the same thing! You can not, NOT, judge an entire group of people based on race, color, religion, creed, jello flavor, gender, culture, or sexual orientation. It's just wrong.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:44 pm
Fair point:
Though to be honest, it's folly to think that discrimination will ever cease to exist. Much of it is evolutionary.
I think a good way to answer your question is this: I do invite their opinions and views on me. To not do so would be censorship of a sort, and wrong. I do encourage logical, rational discussion rather than impassioned preaching - as such, I do not invite unjustified action on those prejudices in any situation.
But OP is not asking what we want to 'do' to hetties, simply what we think about them, whether these thoughts are the result of generalisations, or relate to the general act of physically being heterosexual.
Also, if you do believe in censorship, and don't think that we should invite even discussion about homophobic or heterophobic feelings, then frankly, close-minded heterosexuals should not be in this guild, so they should not have to be exposed to it, and can go about their merry little lives unwittingly.
You are right in saying that it is no different from asking what people think about the Chinese, but my question is: "why is this inherently wrong?
You can, CAN (can you do the cancan...) judge an entire group of people based on race, color, religion, creed, jello flavor, gender, culture, or sexual orientation, as long as the judgement made is a direct result of said race, colour, religion, creed, jello flavour, gender, culture or sexual orientation.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:17 pm
I don't have a problem with straight people.
I have a problem with anyone who is hateful for stupid reasons.
They annoy me with their stupid questions sometimes though, unless I know they don't mean anything by it.
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Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:55 pm
No, you can not make a "Rightful" judgement of an entire group of people. There is just no way. Even if you tried, you would still fail to rightfully stated a fact that applied to all of them. We are individuals. Over six billion of us on this planet, not even so much as two exactly alike, and you think for a moment that someone, anyone, would be able to accurately speak for an entire group of them? There is no way to do that, except for one group that I know of. It's just not going to happen.
So, no matter how PC you want to be, regardless of how much free speech that everyone exercises, it all chalks up to opinion. Opinions are all that they have, and opinions are all that he asked for. But why invite an opinion to hatred? Why invite the room for one group, gender, sexual orientation, or jello loving fiends to be discriminated against?
I'm not going to sit here and pretend that all LGBTQs are human rights activists, or even give a snog about one another, let alone being fair. What I am doing is hoping that those gathered here would realize that we do have straight members in this guild, and that they surely would appreciate at the very least some decorum. A little respect. Is that not what we want too?
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:41 am
Orion_s Charm No, you can not make a "Rightful" judgement of an entire group of people. There is just no way. Even if you tried, you would still fail to rightfully stated a fact that applied to all of them. All gays are sexually attracted to people of the same sex. All blacks hare relatively darker skin than caucasians. Orion_s Charm So, no matter how PC you want to be, regardless of how much free speech that everyone exercises, it all chalks up to opinion. Opinions are all that they have, and opinions are all that he asked for. But why invite an opinion to hatred? Why invite the room for one group, gender, sexual orientation, or jello loving fiends to be discriminated against? Because we can. Because fair, rational discussion, (even hateful, fair rational discussion) should never be discouraged. Orion_s Charm What I am doing is hoping that those gathered here would realize that we do have straight members in this guild, and that they surely would appreciate at the very least some decorum. A little respect. Is that not what we want too? How do you expect respect if you cower from the idea of a discussion based around your own sexual preferences? I'm the last person to promote hatred/distrust, but if we cannot communicate how we feel, and discuss it amongst one another, that hate/distrust will never dissipate.
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:02 am
Gotta say I agree with Orion on this one. Who really cares? What does it matter? The entire "them" and "us" mentality is what causes most of the problems we have in the first place.
Screw "straight people"
Screw "gay people"
We're all people.
It doesn't matter at all, and people who take the time and feel the need to create a rift between themselves and others unlike them only serve to do it for the sake of self-gratification.
There's people you like, people you dislike, people you hate, people you love, people who are like you, people who are unlike you, people of the same gender, people of opposite gender, but that's just it.
They're all people.
There's no need to segregate people into neat little boxes.
Why treat people who are unlike you and people who are like you differently, when you're all just people all the same?
Also Meeatu, your first point was extremist, and your last was attacking the person rather than the argument, neither of which help your side of things. The only part I read of your posts that I agree with is the opportunity for free speech and free expression, however calling for some decorum and respect is not a ridiculous idea, especially in a group centered around being open minded.
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:10 am
I know trans-gender gays who are actually one sex, and became another, but are still attracted to the opposite sex, not the same sex, and therefore making your argument incorrect.
Also, I've known "blacks" as you call them who actually have lighter skin than most of the white population. Again, wrong. You can not, no matter how freaking hard you try, make a statement that covers an entire group of people, except for one.
As for cower, are you nutz? Serious? Have you even read my other posts? I'm one of those people who seem to post constantly, sexuality questions, relationships, etc. I never back down or fear any topic. Just the way it goes with me because I'm opinionated and love reasoning. So, try some reasoning. I know that it's hard to imagine the whole planet of people and who they are, but you seem like a passionate person, and therefore I think you can do it.
We are people. The whole point is to be loving to each other, accepting, and kind. Yes, I know not everyone wants to be, but I still encourage it because I believe in all of you.
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Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:15 am
Meeatu Though to be honest, it's folly to think that discrimination will ever cease to exist. Much of it is evolutionary. -Descrimination will cease one day, it is not impossible.
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:10 am
Scarecrow Diablerie Screw "straight people" Screw "gay people" We're all people. It doesn't matter at all, and people who take the time and feel the need to create a rift between themselves and others unlike them only serve to do it for the sake of self-gratification. I bet you see no point in musical genres either? Music is just music right? Wrong. People will ALWAYS have natural prejudice - I am naturally more dubious of pop music, than I am of say... Ska. Thus, the need to define Ska as a genre exists so that I can more easily find the music I'm more likely to listen to. note: I'm NOT advocating that I STOP listening to pop altogether (some of my favourite songs are pop songs), but I do treat the two differently, I listen to them on different occasions, and for different reasons, thus, the need to separate them exists. The same applies with people: Gay people, and straight people, as examples, are fundamentally different. Obviously not in all the ways society will try and convince you that they are, but they are, else the terms would not exist, 'Gay Culture' would not exist, the tension between the two would not exist. Grouping together people into categories that help you assess how you naturally react to them is useful. - This does not mean that you HAVE to treat them differently, or dislike one, it means that you face them with a different attitude, FOR THE PURPOSE of treating them equally. Scarecrow Diablerie Why treat people who are unlike you and people who are like you differently, when you're all just people all the same? because they will react differently and interpret my actions differently. -If I called people who are unlike me, half the things I call people like me, I'd cause them offence unintentionally. -If I hit on as many straight people as I hit on Gay guys, I'd find myself in (more) fights. Get it? I'm not suggesting that any one group of people are better than another, simply that homogenisation is NOT the road to acceptance. -Wiki: Gay Shame. <--- My mentality mirrors this idea a little. (though, not quite to the same degree). Scarecrow Diablerie Also Meeatu, your first point was extremist, and your last was attacking the person rather than the argument, neither of which help your side of things. -Less so than the reply to it. Mine was 'reducto ad nauseum', the response, 'reducto ad ubsurdium'. Both to prove a point. -My last was not at all an attack on Orion's Charm. I've no intention of personally attacking anyone, I respect both you, her, and everyone in this guild more than I let on, (I just like arguing razz ) "you" is meant purely in it's plural sense, talking generally about people who share her ideology. It's not an attack, but a questioning of the basis of her argument. I actually don't even mean to bring any question of respect into it, she's owed respect for arguing logically.
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:17 am
Orion_s Charm My point was not a literal one, reducing it to that level is ridiculous. I mean that blanket statements about groups can be rightfully made, if that statement is about what defines that group. I'm not questioning you timidity. but your whole argument seems to be against the idea of an open discussion about straight sexuality, I call that cowardly. All cats are cats. Whatever. Orion_s Charm We are people. The whole point is to be loving to each other, accepting, and kind. Yes, I know not everyone wants to be, but I still encourage it because I believe in all of you. I agree, what my argument is about, is whether or not you cna be accepting, when you refuse to acknowledge fundamental differences. It seems real easy to accept everyone, when no one is different, except in the way that everyone is (which is piss-poor really, because it means that everyone is essentially the same), but, to me it feels a lot like denial. I think that you have to come to terms with the fact that people are by nature grouped, and develop (or start with) differences within those groups. Once you can accept that, discuss that, and STILL treat them with the same respect (even if it means you have to treat them differently), THEN we're getting somewhere.
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:22 am
You're right, I see no point to musical genre, as they're overly-complicated and too much music blurs the lines between the supposed established genre.
In that sense, and in the same sense with people, I feel it's a "call whatever you want" situation, but you don't 'treat' music in the same way that you 'treat' people, so that's kinda a stretch to argue one against the other.
Just because things are fundamentally different or intrinsically separate, doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as equal parts of a larger whole.
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:10 am
m strieght heart heart heart heart heart
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Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:12 pm
Scarecrow Diablerie You're right, I see no point to musical genre, as they're overly-complicated and too much music blurs the lines between the supposed established genre. -Your inability to understand it does not render it pointless -That's why they have sub-genres and fusion genres, and why new genres are being created. Scarecrow Diablerie you don't 'treat' music in the same way that you 'treat' people, so that's kinda a stretch to argue one against the other. Wasn't the whole point of the ska/pop metaphor meant to prove that in many ways, we do? Scarecrow Diablerie Just because things are fundamentally different or intrinsically separate, doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as equal parts of a larger whole. I agree absolutely! This is why I've repeated things like: "I'm NOT advocating that I STOP listening to pop altogether" "his does not mean that you HAVE to treat them unequally, or dislike one, it means that you face them with a different attitude, FOR THE PURPOSE of treating them equally." "I'm not suggesting that any one group of people are better than another, simply that homogenisation is NOT the road to acceptance." I'm with you a hundred percent on the equality bandwagon, but treating people EQUALLY, and treating people THE SAME is very different.
3nodding Time for another hair-brained scenario! 3nodding When the zombie hordes ( gonk ohnoes! gonk ) take over the world, and the last bastions of humanity are huddled together (in Australia, naturally xd ), terrified of their own shadows and forever accusing one another out of fear of the day that the infection reaches Australian shores, martial law is established. Now, as the huge swathes of people who've come to take refuge in Australia brought with them only what they could carry, the population is barely self-sufficient. Suffice to say, food is scarce, so of course, the army puts in place a rationing system to ensure that there is enough to go 'round during the winter. Also; in order to plug up some holes in this dodgy, dodgy tale, Vegetarians are for some reason all PHYSICALLY UNABLE to eat meat. - call it a super-virus or something, it kills them.
eek If the government fed everybody THE SAME, the vegetarians would either die of 'meat poisoning', or starve. confused To take it back a step into a slightly more realistic setting: Do you feed your vegetarians the same amount of food as your non-vegetarians? in which case, they have less protein and fat in their diet - THE SAME, BUT NOT EQUAL. Or, do you feed them more quantitatively, to ensure that even without eating meat, they have the same levels of protein and fat, etc (going of the assumption that in general, one has to eat more bean curd and nuts than meat to achieve the same protein levels)? - EQUAL, BUT NOT THE SAME dramallama Zombie apocalypse allegories FTW! dramallama
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Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:33 pm
You're attempting to redefine the word equal as to only applying in certain ways. Equality is the idea that all things about one are true in the other. If A is equal to B then all of A is equal to all of B. By the definition of equal neither of your feeding scenarios are equal or the same. Now let's take that scenario again, and if the vegetarians were a minority and were treated as inferior by the carnivores, who were treated apathetically by the omnivores, then we have the issue I'm talking about. Socially, why do the groups need to treat each other differently, just because they eat differently? I'm saying specifically, socially, why do people feel the need to treat straights, gays, blacks, whites, hispanics, trans, hipsters, etc... differently, just because they 'identify' as part of a different 'cultural group'? Also I dunno about you but I don't try to be friends with my music. And please don't assume that just because I think something is overly-complicated that I can't understand it, that's a baseless accusation. To clarify, I'm not talking about "why do we need labels?" I'm talking about not treating someone like garbage or saying that people deserve the death penalty and torture just because they aren't exactly the same as you.
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