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Tags: Food, Vegan, Vegetarian, Animal, Cooking 

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ScreamingVegan

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 3:03 pm


this is where some other vegans might jump down my throat and accuse me of not being a vegan. I eat things with honey (i.e. certain cereals, honey wheat bread, honey peanut butter). I don't however eat ANY OTHER ANIMAL PRODUCT. Honey is the ONE thing, and that's because I've researched it and STILL do not see how it's cruel. I do believe they feel pain and are intelligent, but the process and the practice really does not seem cruel to me. So just because most vegans say you aren't a vegan if you consume honey, i will still call myself a vegan until the day i die. it's all in how you interpret it, and who knows maybe i'll stop with the honey some day, i just really don't see any good reason to.
PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2006 5:27 pm


lol, well I just looked at the "types of vegetarianism" sticky and apparently I'm what they call a Beegan. Haha. I think I'll stick to calling myself a vegan.

ScreamingVegan


Winter Morning

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:27 am


I'm not vegan- just vegetarian, so I have nothing against eating honey.
I won't eat an animal, like cow, chicken, or pig- but that's just taking away honey from bees!
It's not like they are deeply offended of humans using them..
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:42 am


Even among vegans, the issue of whether honey counts as an animal product -- or, if it does, whether it's harmful to take it -- isn't settled.

I found this great bit on a vegan faq site:

Quote:
What about honey / insects killed by pesticides or during harvest?

What is a vegan? The general definition of a vegan is "someone who does not use animal products." And one reason to avoid these products is to prevent pain and suffering. But it is not clear which organisms are considered animals, nor which organisms can experience pain and suffering.

The behavior of animals is probably the criterion most people use to base their opinions on whether animals feel pain. Most people agree that cats, dogs, and other mammals feel pain. In fact, when some people say 'animal,' they mean 'mammal'. Even the Merriam-Webster Dictionary lists mammal' as a synonym for 'animal.'

It is not as easy for everyone to agree if birds, reptiles, fish, and invertebrates feel pain. On the other hand, many people seriously claim that plants feel pain. Therefore, defining 'animal' by what people generally believe is not going to be productive.

An alternative way to define 'animal' is to use a scientific definition. But even a scientific definition of 'animal' has problems:

Constructing a good definition of animals is not as easy as it might first appear. There are exceptions to nearly every criterion for distinguishing an animal from other life forms.

Biology, 3rd Ed, Campbell, 1993

If vegans are going to follow a technical or scientific definition of the word 'animal,' then sponges (Porifera) are included. Though considered animals, sponges lack true tissues and have no nervous system. They cannot feel pain or suffer any more than plants. So what would be the point of including sponges in a vegan definition of 'animal'?

Instead of trying to define 'animal,' we should simply try to avoid products that cause suffering and harm to nonhuman organisms by figuring out as best we can which feel pain.

It is possible to understand what goes on in certain portions of the human brain, and then compare the human brain to the brains of animals that are closely related to the animals from which humans have evolved. In so doing, all vertebrates (i.e., fish, amphibians, reptiles, mammals, and birds) appear to have what is necessary to feel certain types of pain. Vertebrates are also the animals involved in most of the practices to which vegans object.

Invertebrates (such as insects, mollusks, crustaceans, and silkworms) are different because their evolutionary history diverged from ours long before the evolution of fish, the oldest vertebrates. In fact, we are more closely related to starfish (invertebrates with no brain) than to cephalopods (squid and octopi), who have the largest brains of all the invertebrates. Since their nervous systems developed along a different path, it is very hard to know what they do and do not feel.

Bivalves (a class of mollusk; including oysters, clams, mussels, and scallops) are much more complex than sponges. They don't have a brain, but rather very basic nerve ganglia (bunches of nerves). It is doubtful that their nervous systems are developed enough to be conscious of pain. Because they have nervous tissue, there is an argument to be made for avoiding products that may have harmed bivalves.

Insects (including bees) do have brains. But their brains are not highly developed, and they are likely not large enough to facilitate the consciousness of pain.

So is honey vegan? Our best answer is "We don't know." If one is concerned about doing harm to insects, it's not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables or alternative sweeteners, since the harvesting and transportation of all crops involves some insect deaths.

How should vegans treat this issue publicly? We tend to think that making an issue about honey allows people to marginalize vegans as being in favor of ‘insect rights.' Most people won't yet face the pain and suffering involved in meat. Equating meat with honey probably makes the vegan case nonsensical to the average person.

Saying that honey is a significant ethical issue brings in a range of other issues that people can easily dismiss veganism, reducto ad absurdum. Can't eat honey? Can't kill cockroaches? Can't swat mosquitoes? Squashing flies with your car is the same as eating veal?

At this point in history, the obvious and undeniable issues should receive our focus. We should probably cut people some slack when it comes to insects, even if we ourselves see value in the avoidance of harming them.

And this brings us back to the original question of what is a 'vegan'? Perhaps instead of defining a vegan as "someone who does not use animal products," we should define a vegan as "someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans."

This might upset some people who feel that without a dogmatic approach (i.e., a governing body making rules for everyone else), veganism will become meaningless as people will be rationalizing all sorts of behavior. But as the situation stands now, veganism's dogmatic overtones not only

drive people away, but make them not even consider giving up many animal products. If we allowed people to call themselves 'vegan' and let them decide what is reasonable, we could then try to convince them using reason, rather than dogma. How can we scare people away by telling them to do what they think is most reasonable? We think the animals would be much better off with this approach both in the short and long run.


From Vegan Outreach.

I think whether to eat honey is a personal choice. I've known beekeepers and that first quoted bit about the horrible things they do -- well, I've never seen most of that.

Points I think one should consider from the above FAQ, when you are deciding whether to consume honey or not:

* It is extremely unlikely that insects have consciousness of pain.

* Vegan food kills many insects. They are killed by organic (or chemical, if you don't eat organic) pest control and the harvesting process.

* Bees do get injured and die occassionally in the harvesting of honey and honeycomb. (Keep in mind that the beekeeper probably wants to limit this as much as possible, since those bees are his livelihood.)

* It is difficult to tell if more insects are harmed from honey or from the production of sweeteners made from plants (or even chemicals).

* Being adamant about "insect rights" may harm the cause of veganism.

* All living things have a right to life.


I think it's a personal choice.

I love bees. I even named my horse BumbleBee. Heh. I don't swat so much as a fly. However, I do eat honey and burn beeswax candles, and use beeswax on my didgeridoo.

MoonJeli


Ghost Suit

Dapper Phantom

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:43 pm


I've had trouble with honey too, deciding whether or not to eat it. I'm not digging the whole harvesting process, and simply the fact that once again, we're manipulating animals/insects for ourselves. It wasn't a big deal for me to drop honey, so I decided to not eat it ::shrug::. If I don't have to, why bother?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:06 pm


Personaly I have trouble extending my ethics to fish let alone bees. Fish get included for enviromental reasons mostly but I dont see myself saving the bees any time soon.

Id rather honey over regular sugar.

Though I guess my one concession come from the fact I love the tast of maple so I use it where ever I can.

Eye_seE


LETS DO THE MARIO!!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:02 am


I've never been into honey. I had it once when I was little and I was all," EWZ!" Its just kind of like, they worked hard to make it for THEMSELVES so it isn't mine to take. Its sort of like milk.. Milk = baby cow food, honey = bee food. Besides, honey is bee barf. XP
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:00 pm


Keep in mind sugar is often processed with animal bones. If you're going to use a non-honey sweetener, some options with less animal impact are:

Xylitol
Fruit sugars
Agave syrup
Raw cane sugar

Keep in mind all these sweeteners, like all plant products *do* hurt insects in the harvest.

MoonJeli


Sporadic_Lyricz

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:17 pm



i can't believe we are having this conversation. the defenition of a vegan is one who does not eat or use animal products. honey is obviously an animals product. there is no way around that. so as a vegan i feel that i should not eat honey because it goes against all that i stand for as a vegan. i would feel like such a hypocryte if i ate it. the fact that not all bees are hurt is not going to change my mind anymore than if the issue was about milk. i would not drink milk if i raised the cow myself and knew it was well treated and was not hurt in the process of being milked. to me, its the same kind of thing. i'm call myself a vegan so i am going to live that philosophy completely.

DionaLadeja
technically, bees aren't animals.

i wonder what your definition of an animal is then. to my knowledge, all natural things are animals, plants or minerals. bees don't appear to be plants or minerals so i would have to classify them as animals. what could possibly make you think otherwise?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:01 am


There's five kingdoms of living organisms: monera, protista, fungi, plantae, and animalia.
An animal is a living organism classified under the kingdom animalia. Bees fall under this category. Bees are animals.

I don't know where everyone is getting the idea that bees are not animals!

Some distinction may be drawn between honey and milk or eggs probably because bees are tiny and often feared (making them more difficult for a human to identify with any suffering they may endure). Bees are also given much more freedom than are the mammals who produce milk and the birds who produce eggs. Bees cannot be caged to make honey, and as others have brought up, the colony can migrate if they choose.

Is honey an animal product? It depends on the way you look at it, I suppose. Bees are indeed animals, but other consumable animal products such as milk and eggs are produced by the animal's body, whereas bees are actively creating the honey. It's true that the nectar collected by the bees goes into a couple stomachs which introduces their enzymes . . . so there's a bit of animal in there. The bees weren't killed to obtain this enzyme and they produced this honey of their own free will.

However, I don't agree with the girl who started this thread. I don't think it's justifiable to say it's ok for an animal to be abused simply because the person dislikes the animal. Making that kind of argument is absolutely ridiculous. I am terrified of spiders, but that doesn't make me ambivalent about their suffering.

I'd say it's still a form of animal exploitation. Bees make honey for themselves. When humans take honey from the bees, the humans are reaping all the benefits of this minimal interference relationship.

This is certainly one of the less critical issues since bees are not nearly as abused. As others have mentioned, any kind of harvesting kills small mammals and insects, so if you're looking to minimize suffering, you may want to minimize your intake of avoidable items such as sweeteners in the first place.

pilliwinks


Your Head Asplode

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:32 pm


My sister is allergic to bee stings. 3nodding
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:07 am


That's kind of how I feel about eggs. I eat them because my mo insists that I do for the protein and I have to admit that even if she didn't want me to eat them, I probably wouldn't be able to give it up.
As far as I can tell, since I haven't really gone in-depth on this subject ever before, honey from bees is kind of like milk from cows. Well it's not exactly the same but go with me here.
The animal produces it naturally and, as long as it's not harmed to get the product, I see no problem with it.

Bat-Krn


Pandemasu

PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:10 pm


Way back when, bees were harmed by human's harvesting of honey. But today we've found ways to harvest the honey without harming bees.
I love bees, they dont hurt me unless I'm a threat to them. Bumble Bees are especially amazing to me <3
Now hornets are nastey. You could just be sitting there minding your own business and they will sting you for the reason of existing where they dont want you to.

I use Burt's Bees products, honey and bees wax is used in their all natural products.

Though I wish I could be vegan, I cant bring myself to becoming one. I just love pizza too much.
So I prefer to be an organic vegetarian. I'm pro organic milk and egg. But I haven't been able to be 100% organic seeing how I'm still under my parent's rule.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:20 pm


DionaLadeja
CoNtAgOuSmElOdY
ok... i still don't get how honey is a product of animals!!!!


Bees collect the pollen from plants, and store it in their systems.. which they later vomit out into the hive. That's why it's an animal product.. technically, bees aren't animals. But still. Neither are moths.. that doesn't change the fact that I won't use silk.

I'm not a huge fan of honey.. anyone can use maple syrup in place of honey. It's a personal choice.

Catherine teh Vegan


ChaoticConsonance

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:11 am


a) you are taking the food that thousands of bees have gathered

b) honey production kills manymany bees

c) agave nectar is DELICIOUS!
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