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 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:52 pm
---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
that's a good policy, ali.
i think i'm sort of the opposite, i never form an opinion about anything without reading a few articles on both sides of the issue.
your best bet for accuracy would be to read a few articles on BOTH sides and see what they say.
it might end up more balanced that way. 3nodding
---------->>[ 18 and counting...]<<----------
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:56 pm
I_Focus_On_The_Pain Yes, it does But you cannot put money on a human life. Yeah, so it does cost money to keep people in jail, but it also stops them from reaking more havok on the world. A big problem in England at the moment is too light sentences on people like rapists. One example is the murder of Mary Ann (I believe that was her name, but don't shoot me if it's wrong.) She gave evidence against a man, who had already raped several other women, and he should then have been locked up. There was more than enough evidence to do so. But he was put on probation, and went to find Mary Ann with a group of friends (including other men on probation), and tortured her and raped her for over two hours before she bled to death from the many stab wounds they gave her. They also shot her friend in the head, but she survived. If the government weren't trying to save money the man would have been locked away and she would still be alive. Here is a link to a page about probation, and Mary Ann's murder. It's worth reading. This isn't the only example. There are hundreds of others, where people have been let off on bail for crimes which are jailable. Whether it does cost lots of money to keep people locked away, I don't see a better cause than saving human lives. Killing people also stops them from reaking havoc into the world. Besides, I never said anything against jail for life, I'm fine with that. There are lots of people that deserved that and more. I'm just also fine with death penalty, and believe that in this world there are people that do 'deserve' to die. I never really said anything about giving people lighter sentences, so I'm guessing this is about saving money? When I said that, I was hoping that people would assume I wasn't saying that any way to save money was the better way. After all, we would save a whole lot of money by just killing off every criminal without so much as a trial, but that's no way to go >.< . Money is what puts food in people's mouths, gives them homes and health insurance and security measures for their homes, etc.. It's needed. However, letting innocent people (such as Mary Ann) get hurt to save money is the exact opposite of what I'm thinking about. That's the sort of thing that money should be used for; to protect the innocents that could be in harm's way. Mm... I feel like I might've missed something... or something... I'm getting tired though, and I think it's going to rain soon (I think I've got like a minor arthritis or something from my mom, so my wrists feel pressured). <3 Ali
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:58 pm
I'm going to take this from as neutral a perspective as I can, because, like Rose, I can't figure out which side I'm on.
When I think about this, the first thing I think is that vengeance is a normal human instinct. Hamurabi's code has been implanted in our minds for centuries. Whenever someone does something to us, what is our first reaction? "That sunuvabitch is going to pay!" Think about it, though. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." When I think about it, rape doesn't mean death. Death means death. Rape... well, rape as a capital punishment is pretty stupid. Death could bring death, but then again, what does that change?
I agree that life in prison would be a very effective punishment, especially if they reform (which is really quite unlikely), in which they would have to live with the pain that they've caused another human emotional or physical harm. However, even in maximum security, there is always the extremly thin yet existant chance of escape. It has happend in the past. It is still possible. Technological advancements do help to decrease the chance of escape, but there's always bugs in the system. Someone will always find a way out. It may not be often, but it can still happen.
On the subject of innocent lives lost, sadly, it happens. It shouldn't happen, I hate when it happens, but it still happens. I feel that the death penalty, if it has to be used, should only be used if there is enough concrete evidence against said criminal, and ONLY in that instance. What counts as concrete evidence? Confession. Confession is the only way. Sadly, even this might not work, since some innocent humans may just confess to get out of being in their own personnal four-walled hell.
In the end, though, it all boils down to one thing: What good will it do?
Nothing. 19...
HOHMAIGAWD We're in the teens now!
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:07 pm
the fuzziest llama ---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
that's a good policy, ali.
i think i'm sort of the opposite, i never form an opinion about anything without reading a few articles on both sides of the issue.
your best bet for accuracy would be to read a few articles on BOTH sides and see what they say.
it might end up more balanced that way. 3nodding
---------->>[ 18 and counting...]<<---------- Mm, I actually tried that, but I went to a couple anti-death-penalty sites and all they had was... you know, typical stuff like with religion dragged in and pulling in things that would make people feel sorry for death penalty people. Like, the site I clearly remember showed a teen in jail that was going to get death penalty, and the only thing they said about it was 'Even children are not spared' or something, and they didn't even explain what the hell he did to get there!! Probably a murderer, rapist, something like that -_- . They were even more biased-like than the prodeathpenalty site, in that they barely had any statistics or facts, most of which were disproved ('disproved') from that prodeath site. They only depended on sad stories or whatever where they only told half a story and kept the other half in the dark. So I didn't trust them XP . Mebbeh I'll sit down and actually take some time to really study death penalty for-real for-real, but then there are so many other topics that I should also be studying (like the Korean/Japanese tension and history, seeing as that'll probably get into my life later if I move to Korea ^^ wink , and I'm just sooo lazy gonk . <3 Ali
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:13 pm
diver_fins In the end, though, it all boils down to one thing: What good will it do?
Nothing. Uuuggghhhh, don't say that again please!! Sends shivers down my spine when I hear stuff like that >.< . Not because I deny it's truth, it just... makes me think of how many times I've come up against that wall where I realize, in the end, nothing really matters anyway. Death is no door, but just a simple line that after you cross, you won't be there anymore. And the line isn't different in any way for any person. And that scares Ali very much >.< . (Oh, right... I ish aetheist, and that's pretty much what I've figured death to be right now in meh life. That's why I feel that way, though it may change in future >.o . Hopefully...)
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:17 pm
diver_fins I'm going to take this from as neutral a perspective as I can, because, like Rose, I can't figure out which side I'm on.
When I think about this, the first thing I think is that vengeance is a normal human instinct. Hamurabi's code has been implanted in our minds for centuries. Whenever someone does something to us, what is our first reaction? "That sunuvabitch is going to pay!" Think about it, though. "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." When I think about it, rape doesn't mean death. Death means death. Rape... well, rape as a capital punishment is pretty stupid. Death could bring death, but then again, what does that change?
I agree that life in prison would be a very effective punishment, especially if they reform (which is really quite unlikely), in which they would have to live with the pain that they've caused another human emotional or physical harm. However, even in maximum security, there is always the extremly thin yet existant chance of escape. It has happend in the past. It is still possible. Technological advancements do help to decrease the chance of escape, but there's always bugs in the system. Someone will always find a way out. It may not be often, but it can still happen.
On the subject of innocent lives lost, sadly, it happens. It shouldn't happen, I hate when it happens, but it still happens. I feel that the death penalty, if it has to be used, should only be used if there is enough concrete evidence against said criminal, and ONLY in that instance. What counts as concrete evidence? Confession. Confession is the only way. Sadly, even this might not work, since some innocent humans may just confess to get out of being in their own personnal four-walled hell.
In the end, though, it all boils down to one thing: What good will it do?
Nothing. 19...
HOHMAIGAWD We're in the teens now! ---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
if murder is considered a crime that should be punishable by death rape most CERTAINLY should.
people don't escape from prison very often...
the number of prisoners serving for life that manage escape for a long period of time (they're nearly always recovered) is far smaller than the number of people wrongfully convicted, i assure you.
concrete evidence can "lie."
it can be manipulated, processed incorrectly, planted.
too much room for error.
confessions are some of the most faulty forms of evidence.
people can be twisted and manipulated.
people can be lied to a coerced.
it's a crime, but it HAPPENS.
similar to prison scandals internationally where people have been lied to or even tortured into confession.
is that what you'd like people to be killed as a result of?
---------->>[ 18 and counting...]<<----------
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:22 pm
Ali Myrrh Kim the fuzziest llama ---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
that's a good policy, ali.
i think i'm sort of the opposite, i never form an opinion about anything without reading a few articles on both sides of the issue.
your best bet for accuracy would be to read a few articles on BOTH sides and see what they say.
it might end up more balanced that way. 3nodding
---------->>[ 18 and counting...]<<---------- Mm, I actually tried that, but I went to a couple anti-death-penalty sites and all they had was... you know, typical stuff like with religion dragged in and pulling in things that would make people feel sorry for death penalty people. Like, the site I clearly remember showed a teen in jail that was going to get death penalty, and the only thing they said about it was 'Even children are not spared' or something, and they didn't even explain what the hell he did to get there!! Probably a murderer, rapist, something like that -_- . They were even more biased-like than the prodeathpenalty site, in that they barely had any statistics or facts, most of which were disproved ('disproved') from that prodeath site. They only depended on sad stories or whatever where they only told half a story and kept the other half in the dark. So I didn't trust them XP . Mebbeh I'll sit down and actually take some time to really study death penalty for-real for-real, but then there are so many other topics that I should also be studying (like the Korean/Japanese tension and history, seeing as that'll probably get into my life later if I move to Korea ^^ wink , and I'm just sooo lazy gonk . <3 Ali ---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
all i can say is that you've been looking at all the wrong anti-death penalty sources.
there are far more sources available on the internet that are anti-death penalty than there are pro.
get some from reputable sources.
real studies.
the majority of the statistics gathered in NON boased studies ought to support the anti-death penalty movement, as they point to flaws in the system--racial/socioeconomic discrimination, inadequate council, evidence tampering, mistakes in cases that result in innocent people being held on death row for many years, and in some cases even executed.
---------->>[ 18 and counting...]<<----------
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:26 pm
I used to believe in the Death Penalty
until i realized it wasn't consistent or fair
(thanks to my mother and mine's educational debates)
I believe in Life in Prison with stricter jails.
Criminals don't need Television when a good bit of people who do right
don't have one
Criminals are in jail for isolation not peace
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:27 pm
@Ali- I'm NOT an Atheist. I believe in an afterlife. I, however, would not like to find out if I'm right or not about it before I have to.
@Meredith- neutral I'm sorry to say it, but it doesn't seem like you read what I wrote well enough, because you're reiterating what I say and putting words in my mouth. I never said rape shouldn't be punishable by death, I said rape shouldn't be used as a punishment. I already stated that there's a small number of prisoners who escape. I said there's no real concrete evidence, and that even confessions aren't that concrete.
And now I'm crying because you seem really mad at me. 19...
HOHMAIGAWD We're in the teens now!
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:31 pm
diver_fins @Ali- I'm NOT an Atheist. I believe in an afterlife. I, however, would not like to find out if I'm right or not about it before I have to.
@Meredith- neutral I'm sorry to say it, but it doesn't seem like you read what I wrote well enough, because you're reiterating what I say and putting words in my mouth. I never said rape shouldn't be punishable by death, I said rape shouldn't be used as a punishment. I already stated that there's a small number of prisoners who escape. I said there's no real concrete evidence, and that even confessions aren't that concrete.
And now I'm crying because you seem really mad at me. 19...
HOHMAIGAWD We're in the teens now! ---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
i'm sorry, i did mis-read that.
it sounded as if you said something else, though i must admit i read it over 4 or 5 times before realizing what you DID mean.
i know you didn't say things were concrete, but the things you did say are fairly weak arguments in favour of the death penalty, which i believe was the intent of your mentioning them.
i'm not mad at you, it's called heated debate.
---------->>[ 18 and counting...]<<----------
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:33 am
I don't believe in using the death penalty on people every time. I don't think that everyone needs it. It should only be used to prevent the person from causing any more harm. But I believe that it should not be removed as a possible consequence. If the system worked, if innocent people were not sentenced for things that they didn't do, then there wouldn't be such an outcry over killing murderers and rapists. But there are too many weaknesses, and those weaknesses will be there as long as the system relies on humans to run it. But there is no good alternative hidden in that statement either, because a purely logical judge is incapable of mercy. Mercy is still important, no matter what else happens.
So which do we give them: justice or mercy?
That's what it really comes down to, for me. It has ot be case by case to be used properly, but there will still be mistakes. It is regrettable that those mistakes can possibly result in the loss of human life, but so does drunk driving. So do airplane crashes. Things happen. All we can do is try to make things as safe and fair as possible. So to take away the death penalty altogether is, in my opinion, overcompensating for prior errors.
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:50 pm
Sylmaros I don't believe in using the death penalty on people every time. I don't think that everyone needs it. It should only be used to prevent the person from causing any more harm. But I believe that it should not be removed as a possible consequence. If the system worked, if innocent people were not sentenced for things that they didn't do, then there wouldn't be such an outcry over killing murderers and rapists. But there are too many weaknesses, and those weaknesses will be there as long as the system relies on humans to run it. But there is no good alternative hidden in that statement either, because a purely logical judge is incapable of mercy. Mercy is still important, no matter what else happens. So which do we give them: justice or mercy? That's what it really comes down to, for me. It has ot be case by case to be used properly, but there will still be mistakes. It is regrettable that those mistakes can possibly result in the loss of human life, but so does drunk driving. So do airplane crashes. Things happen. All we can do is try to make things as safe and fair as possible. So to take away the death penalty altogether is, in my opinion, overcompensating for prior errors. I know I don't know you, but... :hugs: I luv you. heart <3 Ali
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:30 pm
diver-fins: Concerning the point on death-death vs rape-?, thinking of it in the 'eye for an eye' manner, we could then consider death as 'lethal damage', and rape as 'psychological damage'. Going off of that, some form of torture should then be somewhere in the punishment for one who commits such a crime. Solitary confinement is one accepted method, though something else, such as an extremely impractical chastity belt which makes even prison 'encounters' nigh impossible to occur... Sorry if this doesn't sound altogether serious, a tad behind on sleep right now. I still kept some point in there, at least. mrgreen
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Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:52 pm
Jiachi Kieln diver-fins: Concerning the point on death-death vs rape-?, thinking of it in the 'eye for an eye' manner, we could then consider death as 'lethal damage', and rape as 'psychological damage'. Going off of that, some form of torture should then be somewhere in the punishment for one who commits such a crime. Solitary confinement is one accepted method, though something else, such as an extremely impractical chastity belt which makes even prison 'encounters' nigh impossible to occur... Sorry if this doesn't sound altogether serious, a tad behind on sleep right now. I still kept some point in there, at least. mrgreen ---------->>[ First days of the rest of my life... ]<<----------
the difference: causing "psychological damage" to prisoners is against both US and international law.
and for VERY good reason.
in many peoples' opinion, the death penalty ought to be treated with the same amount of disdain, and in many places it is.
---------->>[ 17 and counting...]<<----------
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Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:58 am
Ali Myrrh Kim I_Focus_On_The_Pain Yes, it does But you cannot put money on a human life. Yeah, so it does cost money to keep people in jail, but it also stops them from reaking more havok on the world. A big problem in England at the moment is too light sentences on people like rapists. One example is the murder of Mary Ann (I believe that was her name, but don't shoot me if it's wrong.) She gave evidence against a man, who had already raped several other women, and he should then have been locked up. There was more than enough evidence to do so. But he was put on probation, and went to find Mary Ann with a group of friends (including other men on probation), and tortured her and raped her for over two hours before she bled to death from the many stab wounds they gave her. They also shot her friend in the head, but she survived. If the government weren't trying to save money the man would have been locked away and she would still be alive. Here is a link to a page about probation, and Mary Ann's murder. It's worth reading. This isn't the only example. There are hundreds of others, where people have been let off on bail for crimes which are jailable. Whether it does cost lots of money to keep people locked away, I don't see a better cause than saving human lives. Killing people also stops them from reaking havoc into the world. Besides, I never said anything against jail for life, I'm fine with that. There are lots of people that deserved that and more. I'm just also fine with death penalty, and believe that in this world there are people that do 'deserve' to die. I never really said anything about giving people lighter sentences, so I'm guessing this is about saving money? When I said that, I was hoping that people would assume I wasn't saying that any way to save money was the better way. After all, we would save a whole lot of money by just killing off every criminal without so much as a trial, but that's no way to go >.< . Money is what puts food in people's mouths, gives them homes and health insurance and security measures for their homes, etc.. It's needed. However, letting innocent people (such as Mary Ann) get hurt to save money is the exact opposite of what I'm thinking about. That's the sort of thing that money should be used for; to protect the innocents that could be in harm's way. Mm... I feel like I might've missed something... or something... I'm getting tired though, and I think it's going to rain soon (I think I've got like a minor arthritis or something from my mom, so my wrists feel pressured). <3 Ali Yeah, I kinda went off on a rant about my stupid government.
It just makes me so angry when I hear stories like the one about Mary Ann. She was only 16!!!
Anyway...moving away from that...
I agree about the money thing; and some people do need to be killed. I confuse myself with the death penalty; because sometimes I agree with it and sometimes I don't.
Like the fact that if it was brought back, some people who are innocent might die.
Meh...I think this is a very sticky subject with a lot of people...
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