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 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:51 pm
I didn't really understand the sentence structure, can you put it in a more simplified form?
Like, the way the words go together?
Object-subject-verb doesn't make much sense to me, and neither does time-topic-comment...
xx;;;
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:41 pm
Ok let me try this:
ASL is a visual language.
The best way to put together sentences is to think in pictures.
Let's say you watch to talk about a church.
Would you just start talking about the church and expect them to understand?
No!
So let's take the sentence, "I'm going to church."
What are we talking about?
The church!
So that goes first because it's the topic.
Now what do I have to say about the church?
That I'm going!
So let's put that together.
"CHURCH I GO."
Now let's try a more complicated sentence.
"I saw a man walk from the church to the bar."
Who are we talking about?
A man.
Who saw him?
I did.
Where is he going?
the bar!
From where?
the church!
How did he get there?
He walked!
So we have,
"MAN I-WATCH BAR, CHURCH, WALK-TO"
Now in that sentence many deaf people would sign BAR towards the left and church at the right and show the classifer (upside down v hand like you would gesture to show walking) walking from the right (the church) to the right (the bar)
So basically here's a formula:
TIME+OBJECT+SUBJECT+COMMENT+VERB
Time is anything like today, tomorrow, future, past, 9 o clock, 12 pm, noon etc
Object is any direct object or indirect objects
comment is what you have to say
And then the verb goes last.
So to repeat.
Think, "When did this happen?"
sign that.
Think, "What am I talking about"
sign that.
Then think, "What do I want to say about the subject?"
Hope that helps, if not I can try and translate sentences for you, if you learn better by example.
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:01 pm
Yeah, that did help.
Thanks. 3nodding 3nodding 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:52 pm
I'm glad!
It's hard to get people to use asl grammar, and I'm happy you asked.
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Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:52 pm
I'm sorry to be a bother, but you offered earlier to make some sample sentances if it'd help? I'd really appreciate a few, if it's not too much of a bother.
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Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:56 am
lili of the lamplight I'm sorry to be a bother, but you offered earlier to make some sample sentances if it'd help? I'd really appreciate a few, if it's not too much of a bother.
"I want to go to the mall."
"M-A-L-L I GO WANT" (or WANT GO there's no difference)
"I have no gas though"
"GAS ME NONE"
"Fine, if I give you gas money can we go?"
"MONEY GAS, i-GIVE-you, M-A-L-L WE GO?"
"Ok, but I need to be back by 4"
"FINE, BUT 4-TIME B-C-K NEED" (Back is a loan word the A is usual dropped)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Another dialogue.
"Hi I'm Amanda Fast, I have an appointment with the counselor."
"HI, ME-formal A-M-A-N-D-A F-A-S-T, APPOINTMENT WITH COUNSEL-PERSON HAVE"
(Formal I is instead of pointing at someone you make a downwards descent towards the honored person with your B hand)
"Ok, wait near her door over there please."
"PLEASE, DOOR (point) WAIT THERE-ABOUTS"
"Hello, Amanda how are you?"
"HI HOW YOU?"
"I'm good, what about you?"
"GOOD, YOU?"
"What did you need?"
"NEED HUH?"
"I needed to change my schedule. Instead of Sewing can I take Spanish?"
"SCHEDULE, CHANGE NEED. SEWING (point right) SPANISH (point left) left-TRADE-right)."
(Trade is normal formed going out from the body not to the sides but you could modify it to express this (at least in Illinois lol)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Hi, could I get some tickets?"
"HI, TICKETS SOME HAVE CAN?"
"Sure! How many?"
"O-K, HOW-MANY?"
"How much for a ticket?"
"Tickets are one dollar each or 20 for 20"
"TICKET BOX CLASSIFER (far left) BX CL(left) BX CL(right) BX CL (far right) 1-DOLLAR POINTx4 (point at each classifer spot you just made) -BODYSHIFT- 20 FOR 20)
"20 for 20! That's not a deal!"
"20 FOR 20, LOUSY SAVE-ME NOTHING!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Anything you're not really understanding that I could more focus on, or could try to elaborate on?
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Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:22 pm
Question. What exactly is the reasoning behind the grammar of ASL? I would assume that the creators of it would use a sentence structure that seemed the most easy to them, and since this is "american" sign language, where most of us speak English, I would think that it would be SVO.
OSV is even rare among the natural languages of the world, so why was that selected? Is it that over time through experimentation they have found that that way just works best for communication in sign language, or was the inventor of it a speaker of Xavante or something weird like that?
Or is it that sign language developed naturally among deaf people, like Nicaraguan sign language I think, and later it was standardized, and the grammar that developed on its own before was carried into the standardised form?
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Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:08 pm
This is strictly what I have been thinking since studying other languages and it makes sense if you think about it.
ASL is OSV because ASL is a visual language, unlike spoken languages I can use both my hands at once to tell a story, but you couldn't do that with the tongue. In other words spoken language is linear while signed languages are not.
That said, if you're thinking visually and receiving input through the eyes you want to know what you're talking about before you talk about it.
Take this sentence in ASL, "I was walking down the street to my church and then suddenly police cars started shooting past me!"
In Pidgin Signed English (ASL in English order) and assuming they used the conceptually correct signs (Signing run only for 'he ran a race' not 'there's a run in my hoes.' etc) it would be as follows:
"PAST PRO-1 WALK-WALK MY CHURCH, THEN SURPRISE COP-COP CAR FAST-wide eye move"
Now in ASL it would be:
"PAST CHURCH-far-right CL-V:biped-walk-there-stop-wide eye, COP CL-1:vehicle-pass-place."
(ASL would have more non-manual markers to express things that would not appear in the PSE sentence that I can't write here. But to put them in the PSE sentence would be awkward, like one example is why I didn't sign pro-1 in ASL because my eye gaze would show it was me that was walking but if we're going in English order that would be confusing because you can't use that with out using Classifers which are visual and therefore not English.)
In PSE it would take more time and more signs to convey the same concept than ASL because with that word order we can set up the picture or the mental space of the scene which starts to get into blended characters and blended time which is hard to use in PSE but comes naturally in ASL.
But this is just basically how ASL is worded, I mean there are differences in how deaf people sign between different groups because we don't take ASL classes like English speakers take English, so it's up for grabs, but this is the way most deaf talk to each other but when we converse with hearing people we go to SVO because unfairly we just assume they're not going to understand us which causes them to assume we always use SVO or because we initialize more signs for them so they understand they assume it's English on the hands.
Really I blame that and the falsely labeled ASL classes that are really PSE classes.
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Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:29 am
Thanks, STD Fairy, you're a big help. heart
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:25 pm
lili of the lamplight Thanks, STD Fairy, you're a big help. heart
For serious?
heart
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Eccentric Iconoclast Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:54 pm
Oh, this is all fascinating!
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Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:34 pm
Eccentric Iconoclast Oh, this is all fascinating!
Ha ha, seriously, I never though I'd get these kind of responses from people.
<3
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:05 pm
The STD Fairy lili of the lamplight Thanks, STD Fairy, you're a big help. heart
For serious?
heart Quite. I've been able to find loads on the actual signs, but nearly nothing on how to string them together into sentances until now. J'adore! Merci, merci, merci, merci!
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Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:03 pm
lili of the lamplight The STD Fairy lili of the lamplight Thanks, STD Fairy, you're a big help. heart
For serious?
heart Quite. I've been able to find loads on the actual signs, but nearly nothing on how to string them together into sentances until now. J'adore! Merci, merci, merci, merci!
De rien.
I hate that fact too and I want people to be educated so I'm doing my best to bring knowledge to the people!
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