Does the mind have free will?

[27x]

Purete

Niniva

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God free will paradox:
Most religeons say that god is all knowing, and gives us free will.

IF he gives us free will we have it. If he is all knowing, and can't be wrong, then by knowing what we are going to do, we must do it, or it would prove him wrong, which is impossible.

I actually bring this arguement up to my Christian friends who don't think about what they say before they say it. The question of God's foreknowledge first brought to bear in Boethius in 300ish AD. His conclusions are distastefully unsatisfying to me as they attempt to say that God doesn't know the future as there is no "future" to God and so God doesn't "know" anything in the future....there is only now to him, and so he simply just knows whats happening in any single moment because all moments are happening in the "now" for God.

To which I say, "Fine...but what does that have to do with us here? It matters absolutely none at all how God experiences time, or IF he even does. He promised we had free will and reguardless of how HE experiences time and "knows" things WE experience it the way WE do, NOT the way he does and so therefore free will for US cannot happen on God's timeframe, nor can we say anything meaningful about God's timeframe as we don't experience it. So everything you have said Sir Boethius is either not adressing the problem at had or is totally irrelevant. What we would like to know....is how WE have free will IF God knows the future for US....not how God CAN know the future. One has nothing to do with the other. I don't care HOW God knows it...I just care what the implications are."

With that being said, if God "knows" the future, and the definition of "knowledge" is that it is absolute Truth in the sense that he could not "know" it for certain unless it were true and so if God "knows" the future then it must take place and we cannot avoid it.

So how do we solve this problem if we want both to be a theist and preserve free will?

Simple. Under the rules of omnicience the definition in Philosophical terms is not that God knows literally everything.....it's that God knows everything THAT CAN BE KNOWN. If the future has not happened and is not predetermined then God could not know it. What he can know is "every possible outcome" of every decision and thus can acurately predict which way we will go.

In the sense that a Taxi driver knows every turn and side street in New York City or L.A., if you get in his cab and say "Take me to broadway and 22nd" he will say "Well which way you wanna go? Touristy, fastest, or one step at a time?" (they won't really say that I know but lets just say they did) You say, "Lets just see where we wind up after this light." At the light the taxi driver says "Alright we're at 32nd and Jackson, to the right is 34th, to the left 30th, straight ahead we'll hit 43rd and if you wanna turn around we'll hit France St. Which way?" and you say, well if we turn right what's after 34th?" He says "Well you can turn right there and hit France St again, keep going on down to 36th, turn left and head to 43rd or take the on ramp to the freeway."

So no matter which way you tell him to turn he always knows which choices are in front of you and what their possible outcomes are, but what God does not know, and could not possibly know because it does not exist, is which way you will choose to go. He knows the final destination, and he knows every single decision you could potentially be faced with allong the way but he does not know which streets you will turn down.

That is the advantage of devine knowledge. Are there some things God does not know? Yes, just like there are some actions God cannot take (those which contredict themselves). God cannot possibly know something that cannot be known. Just as God cannot possibly do something that cannot be done. This is St. Thomas Aquinas in the early 14th century. Excellent thinker, perhaps the greatest advancements in philosophy since aristotle came from that man.

Don't you imagine that if there were an all powerful, omniscient, creator of the universe, ultimate being, fully capable of knowing every bit of the future, He would also have the power to withhold such knowledge from Himself?

We have to have free will in order for Christianity to function properly. God wouldn't want us to choose the right thing just because it's in the cards. Do you want to make someone say, "I love you," or do you want them to choose to say, "I love you?" God had to allow us to be genuine.

The Bible does directly say that He knows every day of our lives before we are born, and I don't doubt it. But a being which is all powerful, ALL powerful...shouldn't He have the ability to shield His eyes from some knowledge of the future, for His own sake?

It's a hard concept to grasp, since we are acquainted only to thinking within human boundaries, with human minds. Shouldn't an all powerful being be able to do, well...anything? Even if it means keeping something He already knows from Himself, so that He doesn't see the outcome either, until it happens?

Just a thought. Only a thought.

Well for CHRISTIANITY, yes, he would have to. The thing is though, if your a buddhist, it's perfectly reasonable that everything has a destiny, and a place to be at a certian time, because there is nothign in buddhism that is against it.

I believe you that a god in any form, would create the world with free will, but I must remind you not all of us are christians.  

[Purete]

I think your quote messed up..  

[27x]

Purete

I think your quote messed up..

I think gaia is having trouble with their quote system. I'll bet you this one will be messed up as well.  

[Purete]

I_27_04

Purete

I think your quote messed up..

I think gaia is having trouble with their quote system. I'll bet you this one will be messed up as well.

Lol  

[Niniva]

"Don't you imagine that if there were an all powerful, omniscient, creator of the universe, ultimate being, fully capable of knowing every bit of the future, He would also have the power to withhold such knowledge from Himself?"

No I don't imagine that he can both know...and not know...something at the same time. Thats an impossibly illogical conclusion. I have entertained the idea that he "can" know the future for any one person, but the consequence of him choosing to reveal it is that, that person is irreversably determined from that point foreward....much like in my taxi driver analogy should the taxi driver at any point just decide he's tired of the trip taking so long and simply takes the quickest way to the destination. I don't think it is true, because if it is possible that everything is determined for one person then why is it not for others? Why does God pick for some and not for others? *shrugs* You are speaking of a devine plan from the begining point of BOTH that we have free will and are inherently determined....but I'll ask you this....if it is possible to know, then is it true? It would seem that you cannot KNOW something unless it is truth, so even if God chooses to not know it the fact that he CAN know it removes free will. Simply because he chooses not to have knowledge that is available to him does not absolve the fact that the knowledge is AVAILABLE TO HIM....so how do you cope with that?

"We have to have free will in order for Christianity to function properly. God wouldn't want us to choose the right thing just because it's in the cards. Do you want to make someone say, "I love you," or do you want them to choose to say, "I love you?" God had to allow us to be genuine."

A Calvanist would say you are totally and completely wrong about this. That Christianity can in fact not function at all UNLESS there was predetermination. It isn't a matter of whats more loving at this point, it's a matter of contridiction, you are merely restating the question and suggesting that we need free will, but you are not giving an explanation as to how we might have it.

"The Bible does directly say that He knows every day of our lives before we are born, and I don't doubt it. But a being which is all powerful, ALL powerful...shouldn't He have the ability to shield His eyes from some knowledge of the future, for His own sake?"

The Bible is a book, while a great book of history and a descent story and a wonderful guide to life it is full of contridictions (such as the fall of man) and is very metaphorical and every metaphore is inherently flawed at some point. In any case, my point is this...the Bible was written by men....for men....based on God....if God is so great then those men who wrote it couldn't possible know much about him so no matter what they say about him it will either be wrong.....or right by accident. Secondly it's written TO men, in a culture that is very limited even by comparison to another culture just some 200 years later so to take the Bible as a literal translation of what God is would be nieve and a mistake.

"It's a hard concept to grasp, since we are acquainted only to thinking within human boundaries, with human minds. Shouldn't an all powerful being be able to do, well...anything? Even if it means keeping something He already knows from Himself, so that He doesn't see the outcome either, until it happens?"

No, all powerfull beings should not be able to do anything, this is a logical contridiction. Can God move a Rock so big that he can't lift it? This question is a paradox, if he could make it he couldn't lift it...if he can lift it he can't make a rock so big he can't lift it....so either way there is somethign he cannot do, this is the discussion of St. Thomas Acquinas I spoke of earlier. Can God make a rock so big he can't move it? The answer is quite simply no....but saying no is not limiting God's power in any way, it is simply stating that God cannot contredict himself as it is in the nature of God to be consistent. Think of it like this....Can God make a rock of any size? Yes. Can God move a rock of any size? Yes. Then based of this display of infinte power (IE "any size") if he has both the power to make a rock of infinite size, then if he made one that took up the whole universe could he lift it? Yes, why? Because he can in turn lift a rock of infinite size....so is there limit to the size of a rock God can make? No. Is there a limit to the size of a rock He can lift? Of course not....so what are you exactly stating when you state that God can't make a rock so big he can't move it? You're not limiting his power at all, you are simply acknowledging that God can do two limitless activities.

"Just a thought. Only a thought."

And one that has been had by many many people, but think about it long enough and you'll discover that even God needs to make sense, or he would not be God. A God of order and not chaos. Logic exists on this earth because IF God exists AND he created the earth then he created it within his own nature...Logic is something that exists in concept, as a result of nature....A priori, therefor logic is a property of the nature of God and so to say that God can defy logic is to say God can act against himself and that.......would be rediculous.  

[Purete]

Niniva,
Excellent response.

I wonder though, how does the Bible contradict itself in relation to the Fall?

And you must remember that, although men wrote the Bible, some wrote what they were directly told to by God. And most were Spirit-filled, anointed men of God that wrote not about Him, but inspired by Him.

And again, it was only a thought. Certainly not one that I said was sound, but a thought. I cannot proclaim to fathom the intricacies of free will and predetermination, and I do not believe that we are meant to.

To me, it is an interesting topic, but of little importance. However it works, we can't do anything to make it work differently. And what happens, happens. In the end, I suppose we may find out, as I assume we will find many other answers.  

[Niniva]

Quote:

Niniva,
Excellent response.

I wonder though, how does the Bible contradict itself in relation to the Fall?

For this a PM would be necessary. It's a flawed metaphore right from the start and I'll explain it but only if you truely want to hear it and for that you'd have to PM me.

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And you must remember that, although men wrote the Bible, some wrote what they were directly told to by God. And most were Spirit-filled, anointed men of God that wrote not about Him, but inspired by Him.

That is of course if you believe that God actually spoke to them in audible words. And "spirit filled" is undefinable as many MANY buhdists and Hindu people and even most peagens say they are "spirit filled" in some way or another so no matter what you say about them being spirit filled you have no real reason to believe that the spirit that was filling them was even the God they claimed they were writing about and thus it is a moot point no matter how you look at it and holds no intrinsic value to the conversation. If God told them to write it then you must certainly believe that he would have known what they could and could not comprehend. Imagine that he told the creation story via Darwin's theory of Evolution which came about some 10,000 years later (forget wheather or not evolution is actually true or not just say hypothetically that in some alternate world that mirrors ours exactly up to the creation of man) can you imagine what they would have thought? "Wait so....there's these things called....cells? And they are....alive, but we can't see them? And they grew into....fish, which turned into what? And we're made up of how many complex proteins and fatty acids and we're how much percent water?"

They would have certainly thought that God was all powerful but they would never have understood any part of the language he used and so never would have been able to acurately write it down even if it were true....same with the fall of man....same with Revalations....to say it is to be taken literally is also to say you know very little about history.

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And again, it was only a thought. Certainly not one that I said was sound, but a thought. I cannot proclaim to fathom the intricacies of free will and predetermination, and I do not believe that we are meant to.

To me, it is an interesting topic, but of little importance. However it works, we can't do anything to make it work differently. And what happens, happens. In the end, I suppose we may find out, as I assume we will find many other answers.

It saddens me to hear you say this. Because it means you haven't thought about this very much. If we do not have free will, then we have no justice....if we have no justice then (directly related to what you were talking about) God himself cannot be just....not even devinely just. That also means I have no love, I have no hate, I have no control over anything and so I also am absolved of all moral responsibility which means there is no heaven and there is no hell because there can be no savlation from that which I cannot be blamed for....I am already saved....

Without free will the whole of human existance is quite basically robotic and meaningless. We are nothing but puppets to a great puppet master who is laughing as he not only fools us into thinking we are free when in fact we are not, but even more so in that he can convince us that we are in spite of it all.....and even give us this horrifying story about this place of eternal suffering and then chuckle at the great practical joke of it all because quite literally in the end...........we couldn't control anything that ever happened and thus we'll all wind up in the same place after death which will be as good as no place.

To say that whether or not we have free will or not is irrelevant and meaningless is quite literally to say you've given up on trying to understand things....but what if we can? What if we are meant to know and it's just that we have to figure out how we can know? Then didn't you fail but not perservering in finding the answer? Does not the very same book you have ascribed to, say "And those who dilligently seek shall find"? So if thats true then wouldn't you want to dilligently seek? Why then would you assume it is meaningless? That seems like you are giving up to me. I refuse to accept that there is any question without a reasonable answer to it.  

[whynaut]

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If we do not have free will, then we have no justice....if we have no justice then (directly related to what you were talking about) God himself cannot be just....not even divinely just. That also means I have no love, I have no hate, I have no control over anything and so I also am absolved of all moral responsibility which means there is no heaven and there is no hell because there can be no salvation from that which I cannot be blamed for....I am already saved....

Without free will the whole of human existence is quite basically robotic and meaningless. We are nothing but puppets to a great puppet master who is laughing as he not only fools us into thinking we are free when in fact we are not, but even more so in that he can convince us that we are in spite of it all.....and even give us this horrifying story about this place of eternal suffering and then chuckle at the great practical joke of it all because quite literally in the end...........we couldn't control anything that ever happened and thus we'll all wind up in the same place after death which will be as good as no place.

Thank you, that is what I have been trying to tell people for years. biggrin

Um... sorry for the interruption. sweatdrop

You can all go back to your preordained conclusions about free will now.  

[Purete]

I'm certain they didn't understand, at least at the time they were told, many things God told them to write.

I assure you, I wonder about this often. And I comprehend all that you have, of not having real emotions and consequences being irrelevant and afterlife being meaningless. This why, assuming there is a God, that I know we must have free will. But debating it, splitting hairs as we are, will yield no answer, because there is no proof to suggest any answer. I'm not giving up on anything, but, "I know when I'm beat."

I think that it entirely makes sense that God would present some questions to which there are no soild answers. It's as though He gives just enough evidence of Himself and His word to make belief plausible, but leaves enough reason to doubt so that the choice to believe isn't asleady made for us, because He wants us to rely at least partially on faith.

So sometimes, although I'll admit it's very difficult for me to do, I have to accept that, to some questions, there are no answers.  

[Purete]

"You can all go back to your preordained conclusions about free will now"

Every now and then you crack some wise ones. wink  

[Niniva]

Quote:

I'm certain they didn't understand, at least at the time they were told, many things God told them to write.

I assure you, I wonder about this often. And I comprehend all that you have, of not having real emotions and consequences being irrelevant and afterlife being meaningless. This why, assuming there is a God, that I know we must have free will. But debating it, splitting hairs as we are, will yield no answer, because there is no proof to suggest any answer. I'm not giving up on anything, but, "I know when I'm beat."

I think that it entirely makes sense that God would present some questions to which there are no soild answers. It's as though He gives just enough evidence of Himself and His word to make belief plausible, but leaves enough reason to doubt so that the choice to believe isn't asleady made for us, because He wants us to rely at least partially on faith.

So sometimes, although I'll admit it's very difficult for me to do, I have to accept that, to some questions, there are no answers.

This is where we'll part ways. Trying to convince someone there is actually reason to think there are answers to every question is akin to convincing an evil man that he is bad.  

[Purete]

Fair enough. You know when you're beat, too.  

[Niniva]

Quote:

Fair enough. You know when you're beat, too.

I am not beat. I am merely admitting that beating the donkey to get it to move just makes it sit down....which is essentially what you have done *shrugs*  

[Purete]

Come now, you've arrived at a halt. You're beat, in a sense. I didn't mean for you to take it so seriously.  

[Niniva]

Purete

Come now, you've arrived at a halt. You're beat, in a sense. I didn't mean for you to take it so seriously.

Arived at a voulentary hault, not that I could not keep speaking but that I'm choosing not too for reasons of you not listening, not because I cannot make a point.



....everything is serious......there are no jokes.


....for the record you can "beat" me any day?......no? keke