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 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:09 pm
Badgerkin I'm an athiest now but I was brought up a Christian and I was told that Christians baptise babies soon after they are born because an unbaptised child would not get into Heaven if it died (presumably it would go to Hell or Purgatory). sad So by that logic an aborted fetus would be destined for the same place. I'm not saying that all Christians have to believe that just because my sunday school teacher told me though! I was told it was dedicating the child's life to God. I guess that would be the reason why, ne? Although to side track (slightly), I've never believed God would do that. I'd love to continue this line of thought futher, but this isn't the place for it. PM me if you'd like to debate a bit further biggrin As for the general topic, I'm for euthenasia of terminally ill patients, and I think I agree that it needs to be written down with two doctors to ensure a paper trail that it was consentual of the patient. But! truthfully I'm more interested in the abortion topic. I don't like it in general. I have no problem with the morning after pill, because it is at the same stage as a natural abortion (where the egg is developed, but it's late into the menstrual cycle and the uterus is already shedding it's lining at the same time as the egg would have otherwise attatched itself). Believing in God, if He allows it as an everyday occurence (the woman can't even feel it happening), then causing the same thing to happen to the body can't be "murder". Even taking religion out of it, it's not unethical for the same reasons. However, while I think the woman has a choice, I think the MAN should have a choice as well. Biologically it's not his fault that he can't carry it to term, but there are instances where the husband/boyfriend wants the child and she doesn't. This is the big problem I find with abortion. That's half his DNA, and he has no say.
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Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:29 pm
my veiws on this are not really all that clear.
for abortion i think that it all depends on the situation. some people have been raped but decided to keep the child and it has turned out to be the best thing they have ever done but then there are other situations where it can be for the best if the child is aborted.
however one thing that is clear is that if the child is aborted in the 2nd trimester it is like murder.
my general view is that we should treat any unborn child as a human being. you wouldn't violate someone while they were sleeping would you? i mean you still treat them like an individual who can walk, talk and think. An unborn child is just that. it has the ability to walk, talk and think if it is given the chance.
i am not so sure about assisted suicide though. I can understand that if someone is in pain and depressed and cannot stand to be here anymore would want to leave. but i can't see how they would want to push their pain on to others by killing themselves and getting someone to help. the person helping may be sympathetic to the other but they would also become the living part of someones death. the constant reminder and the memories and the questions that person would be asked. they would also become part of the outlet for others pain. they could possibly turn out to be the families and friends, lamb at the slaughter i mean people could possibly blame that person for the loss and ask why they didnt tell anyone and it would take ages for them to understand.
and look at me rambling on most of this is off the top of my head. it is how i feel on these subjects. if anyone wants to aske me questions or chat to me about it then go ahead i will not hold anything against you if your views are different my mind is open smile
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:42 pm
I feel sorry for those people who cannot make mistakes or they might go to hell. It's not a fun way to live your life.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:19 am
~Rainbow Coloured Starz~ I feel sorry for those people who cannot make mistakes or they might go to hell. It's not a fun way to live your life. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. I think what's important is that we learn from our mistakes and hopefully don't make the same mistake again. xd Why not always try to make the best decisions in your life simply because making a mistake usually ends up hurting you or someone else? I try hard not to make mistakes or bad decisions (and often fail!) not because I'm afraid of going to Hell (which I don't believe in) but because I simply dislike messing my life up! It's really horrible having to live with regrets. Also, isn't there room in some religions for forgiveness anyway, ie. people can avoid going to Hell by being sorry/repenting?
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:51 am
ElvenAssassin I was told it was dedicating the child's life to God. I guess that would be the reason why, ne? Although to side track (slightly), I've never believed God would do that. I'd love to continue this line of thought futher, but this isn't the place for it. PM me if you'd like to debate a bit further biggrin You probably know more about it than me! I just looked the subject up in Wikipedia and it seemed to be saying that the purpose of baptism varies between different religions and among different Christian groups(some see it as being 'saved', others as a ceremony for entering the church, others as a ritual). (the)"purpose of Baptism is to save... To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil and to enter into the kingdom of Christ and live with him forever." Martin Luther. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BaptismI guess opinions vary, anyway - you're right that this is veering off-topic. ElvenAssassin I don't like it in general. I have no problem with the morning after pill, because it is at the same stage as a natural abortion (where the egg is developed, but it's late into the menstrual cycle and the uterus is already shedding it's lining at the same time as the egg would have otherwise attatched itself). Believing in God, if He allows it as an everyday occurence (the woman can't even feel it happening), then causing the same thing to happen to the body can't be "murder". Even taking religion out of it, it's not unethical for the same reasons. Yeah, I don't really have a massive problem with the morning after pill... (the fertilized egg is at such an early stage of development I don't believe it is sentient or can feel pain)but with later stage abortions although they can happen naturally through miscarrige (either because there is some defect with the baby or through fault of the mother eg. a fall) that's not to say it's right to deliberately cause the death of the fetus/baby. I mean people sometimes die by accident, (eg. run over by a car) or disease before they are old - that doesn't make it right to kill/murder a person just because it could happen anyway... That's what I think anyway... ElvenAssassin However, while I think the woman has a choice, I think the MAN should have a choice as well. Biologically it's not his fault that he can't carry it to term, but there are instances where the husband/boyfriend wants the child and she doesn't. This is the big problem I find with abortion. That's half his DNA, and he has no say. I agree that it's wrong for men to have no say in the future of their child and that a woman can have an abortion against the wishes of the man involved. Most pro-choice women I have met believe that the man has no say because a fetus is 'not a seperate person' but either 'a part of the woman' or 'a parasite'.. confused To me, this stance comes across as being an over-zealous femminazi, down with all men, bring on the age of woman-kind sort of view!
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:38 am
Badgerkin ~Rainbow Coloured Starz~ I feel sorry for those people who cannot make mistakes or they might go to hell. It's not a fun way to live your life. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. I think what's important is that we learn from our mistakes and hopefully don't make the same mistake again. xd Why not always try to make the best decisions in your life simply because making a mistake usually ends up hurting you or someone else? I try hard not to make mistakes or bad decisions (and often fail!) not because I'm afraid of going to Hell (which I don't believe in) but because I simply dislike messing my life up! It's really horrible having to live with regrets. Also, isn't there room in some religions for forgiveness anyway, ie. people can avoid going to Hell by being sorry/repenting? I agree. It's completely natural and the most successful people are those who have made mistakes. Them might not have made huge ones like murder someone in a rage but they still have made them. I think there is some room for forgiveness but as with everything in religion it is contradicting and varies. But there are people so scared of making mistakes that they don't do anything. You can't achieve anything that way.
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:41 pm
Badgerkin donnythephoenix I see where you are coming from, but are you suggesting that a raped 14 year old does not get a choice. Or a promising employee who may have to sacrifice her career should not have the choice? I think that people should have a choice, but a choice that has to be made quickly and without unnecessary delay. Hmmm... There is usually a delay before someone finds out they are pregnant - they might not notice until they miss a period. Also I think you have to have been pregnant for a while for a pregnancy test to come up positive. I would feel bad for the hypothetical raped 14 year old but it is still not the fault of her developing child. In my opinion rapists are a problem of our society - I think sex offenders should be 'fixed' so they can't be released from prison at the end of their sentence only to hurt someone else. As for the hypothetical promising employee if she is an adult who has had consentual sex she ran the risk of getting pregnant. Even if she used contraception there is a small chance it could fail = her risk. The consequence of becoming pregnant is having a baby - the idea that it's okay to 'cut it out and carry on' seems selfish to me. If she doesn't want a child the safest course of action would either be to be sterilized or just to abstain from sex altogether. As for moon child's point about the adoption system, from my understanding it's the older children which are difficult to place in a new family. Childless couples would much rather adopt a baby than an older child which has probably been taken into care as a result of abuse or neglect. I agree completely that women shouldn't abort because of selfish reasons. And if a girl is raped, I know it's not her fault, but if she aborted the baby, I believe that she would have an overwhelming guilt later on. I do think it's murder to have abortion because even if this life is so small, that definitely doesn't exclude he/she from being human.
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:51 pm
~Rainbow Coloured Starz~ Badgerkin ~Rainbow Coloured Starz~ I feel sorry for those people who cannot make mistakes or they might go to hell. It's not a fun way to live your life. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. I think what's important is that we learn from our mistakes and hopefully don't make the same mistake again. xd Why not always try to make the best decisions in your life simply because making a mistake usually ends up hurting you or someone else? I try hard not to make mistakes or bad decisions (and often fail!) not because I'm afraid of going to Hell (which I don't believe in) but because I simply dislike messing my life up! It's really horrible having to live with regrets. Also, isn't there room in some religions for forgiveness anyway, ie. people can avoid going to Hell by being sorry/repenting? I agree. It's completely natural and the most successful people are those who have made mistakes. Them might not have made huge ones like murder someone in a rage but they still have made them. I think there is some room for forgiveness but as with everything in religion it is contradicting and varies. But there are people so scared of making mistakes that they don't do anything. You can't achieve anything that way. God will forgive someone of murder if he sees that person's heart is in the right place, and they truly repent for their sin. The only thing that is unforgivable is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't know what you all mean by 'room for forgiveness'. God always forgives and forgets. He'll never hold anything against you if you've asked for forgiveness because His love is so strong.
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Le Aristocrat Vice Captain
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:15 am
suki-chanx3 ~Rainbow Coloured Starz~ Badgerkin ~Rainbow Coloured Starz~ I feel sorry for those people who cannot make mistakes or they might go to hell. It's not a fun way to live your life. Everybody makes mistakes sometimes. I think what's important is that we learn from our mistakes and hopefully don't make the same mistake again. xd Why not always try to make the best decisions in your life simply because making a mistake usually ends up hurting you or someone else? I try hard not to make mistakes or bad decisions (and often fail!) not because I'm afraid of going to Hell (which I don't believe in) but because I simply dislike messing my life up! It's really horrible having to live with regrets. Also, isn't there room in some religions for forgiveness anyway, ie. people can avoid going to Hell by being sorry/repenting? I agree. It's completely natural and the most successful people are those who have made mistakes. Them might not have made huge ones like murder someone in a rage but they still have made them. I think there is some room for forgiveness but as with everything in religion it is contradicting and varies. But there are people so scared of making mistakes that they don't do anything. You can't achieve anything that way. God will forgive someone of murder if he sees that person's heart is in the right place, and they truly repent for their sin. The only thing that is unforgivable is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I don't know what you all mean by 'room for forgiveness'. God always forgives and forgets. He'll never hold anything against you if you've asked for forgiveness because His love is so strong. Just a note - No one here will attack you for christian views, but could you please keep religion within it's context (As you have done in this thread, thank you.) because a lot of us are atheists.
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:40 am
I am personally against abortion but I think the choice whether it shall be done should be between a woman and her doctor. I saw a bumper sticker that said "We save the whales, we spend millions of dollars to save the rain forest, but we murder our unborn children." Do you agree or disagree with that statement? And with assisted suicide I think there should be a list of criteria for it to be done and not just for some 40 year old bum who's upset because their wife divorced him. It should again be between someone, their family, and their doctor, it's not the place of the government.
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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:52 am
Operagirl13 I am personally against abortion but I think the choice whether it shall be done should be between a woman and her doctor. I saw a bumper sticker that said "We save the whales, we spend millions of dollars to save the rain forest, but we murder our unborn children." Do you agree or disagree with that statement? Well, it's true. *shrugs*
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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:59 am
I think assited suicide could be legal, because if someone suffers alot, why keep him/her alive, why should they continue to suffer ? Cancer is something very serious : my grand-mother had leukaemia but since in Canada it's not legal, she juste decided to not fallow the chemotherapy treatments .... Her sister had leukaemia and my grand-ma saw her suffering for a long period and she didn't want to do the same.
crying
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Posted: Sun May 20, 2007 9:36 am
Chronos_06 I think assited suicide could be legal, because if someone suffers alot, why keep him/her alive, why should they continue to suffer ? Cancer is something very serious : my grand-mother had leukaemia but since in Canada it's not legal, she juste decided to not fallow the chemotherapy treatments .... Her sister had leukaemia and my grand-ma saw her suffering for a long period and she didn't want to do the same. crying My Grandma had Cancer. She lived in Switzerland though were it is legal. But the cancer killed her in the end anyway.
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