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 Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:26 am
xion-dono divineseraph xion-dono You're right, the goal IS to end wars, but right now wars are not endable. Just like not having money isn't going to happen. Abolition of class systems isn't going to happen. We'll be lucky if we get universal health care right now. We need to take these things one step at a time. They can't happen because there is a system of power that is making money off it- and that power structure doesn't WANT it to end. So, it is hard to MAKE it end. the power structure will not end it, so it is up to us to make it end. This applies for war, and for healthcare, and for class systems and undoubtedly more. You can't have rich without the poor to work under them. But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. Starting violence of your own against the rich that control everything would be, frankly, useless. They're too powerful and if you were remotely successful you may do more harm than good in the long run. No, what you can do to overthrow the rich is changing minds. It's the only long term (albeit slow) method.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:49 am
Poison the Dreamer xion-dono divineseraph xion-dono You're right, the goal IS to end wars, but right now wars are not endable. Just like not having money isn't going to happen. Abolition of class systems isn't going to happen. We'll be lucky if we get universal health care right now. We need to take these things one step at a time. They can't happen because there is a system of power that is making money off it- and that power structure doesn't WANT it to end. So, it is hard to MAKE it end. the power structure will not end it, so it is up to us to make it end. This applies for war, and for healthcare, and for class systems and undoubtedly more. You can't have rich without the poor to work under them. But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. Starting violence of your own against the rich that control everything would be, frankly, useless. They're too powerful and if you were remotely successful you may do more harm than good in the long run. No, what you can do to overthrow the rich is changing minds. It's the only long term (albeit slow) method. Violent revolution can absolutely work if the conditions are right. Read Marx much?? gonk
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:54 am
xion-dono Poison the Dreamer xion-dono divineseraph xion-dono You're right, the goal IS to end wars, but right now wars are not endable. Just like not having money isn't going to happen. Abolition of class systems isn't going to happen. We'll be lucky if we get universal health care right now. We need to take these things one step at a time. They can't happen because there is a system of power that is making money off it- and that power structure doesn't WANT it to end. So, it is hard to MAKE it end. the power structure will not end it, so it is up to us to make it end. This applies for war, and for healthcare, and for class systems and undoubtedly more. You can't have rich without the poor to work under them. But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. Starting violence of your own against the rich that control everything would be, frankly, useless. They're too powerful and if you were remotely successful you may do more harm than good in the long run. No, what you can do to overthrow the rich is changing minds. It's the only long term (albeit slow) method. Violent revolution can absolutely work if the conditions are right. Read Marx much?? gonk This is a different era, and that kind of stuff just won't work. Yes, if the conditions are right--which they aren't and probably won't be in our lifetime.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:56 am
Poison the Dreamer xion-dono Poison the Dreamer xion-dono divineseraph xion-dono You're right, the goal IS to end wars, but right now wars are not endable. Just like not having money isn't going to happen. Abolition of class systems isn't going to happen. We'll be lucky if we get universal health care right now. We need to take these things one step at a time. They can't happen because there is a system of power that is making money off it- and that power structure doesn't WANT it to end. So, it is hard to MAKE it end. the power structure will not end it, so it is up to us to make it end. This applies for war, and for healthcare, and for class systems and undoubtedly more. You can't have rich without the poor to work under them. But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. Starting violence of your own against the rich that control everything would be, frankly, useless. They're too powerful and if you were remotely successful you may do more harm than good in the long run. No, what you can do to overthrow the rich is changing minds. It's the only long term (albeit slow) method. Violent revolution can absolutely work if the conditions are right. Read Marx much?? gonk This is a different era, and that kind of stuff just won't work. Yes, if the conditions are right--which they aren't and probably won't be in our lifetime. Marx... Marx won't work in our era? gonk I ... I don't even know how to respond to that... -EDIT- And if "era" is the criteria by which we do away with policies, let's just rid the country of the constitution because it's outdated. I mean I understand as a communist you don't like all of it, but there are parts of it you agree with right?
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:09 am
xion-dono Poison the Dreamer xion-dono Poison the Dreamer xion-dono But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. Starting violence of your own against the rich that control everything would be, frankly, useless. They're too powerful and if you were remotely successful you may do more harm than good in the long run. No, what you can do to overthrow the rich is changing minds. It's the only long term (albeit slow) method. Violent revolution can absolutely work if the conditions are right. Read Marx much?? gonk This is a different era, and that kind of stuff just won't work. Yes, if the conditions are right--which they aren't and probably won't be in our lifetime. Marx... Marx won't work in our era? gonk I ... I don't even know how to respond to that... -EDIT- And if "era" is the criteria by which we do away with policies, let's just rid the country of the constitution because it's outdated. I mean I understand as a communist you don't like all of it, but there are parts of it you agree with right? Or you could just think about what I'm saying... This is a different age, with different challenges. While the principles work, you can't just live in the past forever and pretend this isn't 2008. The government has far more power now than ever.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:43 am
Poison the Dreamer xion-dono Poison the Dreamer xion-dono Poison the Dreamer xion-dono But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. Starting violence of your own against the rich that control everything would be, frankly, useless. They're too powerful and if you were remotely successful you may do more harm than good in the long run. No, what you can do to overthrow the rich is changing minds. It's the only long term (albeit slow) method. Violent revolution can absolutely work if the conditions are right. Read Marx much?? gonk This is a different era, and that kind of stuff just won't work. Yes, if the conditions are right--which they aren't and probably won't be in our lifetime. Marx... Marx won't work in our era? gonk I ... I don't even know how to respond to that... -EDIT- And if "era" is the criteria by which we do away with policies, let's just rid the country of the constitution because it's outdated. I mean I understand as a communist you don't like all of it, but there are parts of it you agree with right? Or you could just think about what I'm saying... This is a different age, with different challenges. While the principles work, you can't just live in the past forever and pretend this isn't 2008. The government has far more power now than ever. You're right so we merely expand on his ideas. I propose getting other countries involved. Lord knows there are plenty of people who would like to see nothing more than the demise of the United States and those people tend to have lots of Russian surplus. 4laugh
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:17 pm
No, the point is that we can't just bash our way to the top anymore. The rich are too powerful, and they have too much control. Through military, through law, and through the will of the people.
Think about it. What happens if we attack? All of us? there may be 500,000 communists in America, at most. So, we all go to new york or DC and go ahead and start blowing up corporate offices. I'd give us, oh, about 30 minutes before the swat team arrives, and 24 hours before we're all dead, and we're all just crazy anti-family terrorists trying to demean the American way of life and apple pie and bald eagles. The republicans all clap and pat themselves on the back, and everyone moves on more wary of Communism than ever.
Hell, people still hate Muslims for 9/11, even though it was an extremist offshoot fueled primarily by our own military actions towards them in the first place. They'd go wild over commies acting up.
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Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:23 pm
xion-dono divineseraph xion-dono You're right, the goal IS to end wars, but right now wars are not endable. Just like not having money isn't going to happen. Abolition of class systems isn't going to happen. We'll be lucky if we get universal health care right now. We need to take these things one step at a time. They can't happen because there is a system of power that is making money off it- and that power structure doesn't WANT it to end. So, it is hard to MAKE it end. the power structure will not end it, so it is up to us to make it end. This applies for war, and for healthcare, and for class systems and undoubtedly more. You can't have rich without the poor to work under them. But how can you overthrow the rich that control everything without starting violence of your own? There is a HUGE difference between war profiteering and being a warrior. How can you end it? By no longer accepting money. That's it. That is the way they control us- We "need" it, and they have it. So, if the majority of the working class stops accepting it, they have no more power. They can't force us into labor. As for our own food, well, I propose communes for a time, until their economy collapses. When the dollar is worth nothing, they can not control us. Then, we establish with the factories a new system of trading labor for produce, just without need of money. And there will be no controllers, no overlords making profit from our work, no way to bribe or extort, no reason to go to war, no reason to sell drugs. Edit- I never said you were a war profiteer, but by BEING a "warrior" for the warmongers, you are AIDING the war profiteers. You're not a war profiteer, that's reserved for the wealthy who sell large contracts to the pentagon.
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Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:12 am
Divine, why is the fact that I will lay down my life for a fellow citizen not good enough for you? By fellow citizen I mean my friends and comrades already in the armed forces, whether they had a choice or not. Why is it that even though I tell you I will protect them and make sure they stay alive, placing their needs above my own, not good enough for you?
When did I say that the moment is NOW to attack? When did I say that we would only be using a force of 500,000? When did I say that we would all stampede washington? You obviously no nothing of military strategy...
If you don't accept money you will starve and die and no one would have ever heard your story. That's the same philosophy that PETA has, you'll never get enough support. And how the hell is that going to stop people from selling drugs?
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:03 pm
Personally, once we make a commune, I wouldn't be against teaching martial arts and allowing sparring, because to me, it's a way to stay healty, and it's an art.
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:28 pm
i have seen this instance more then i would have liked to........
i had a friend. Nick we'll call him. Kick and i were best friends for a very very long time. We were very close, i would've done anything for this kid. High school roles around and we assume our stances in the high school social structure. I become a Communist forged by my friends whom always looked down on it which caused me to look into it in the first place. My friend nick however, always fascinated with guns, decided upon joining the U.S. Military after our school was visited by those b*****d army recruiters.
So effortlessly i tried to talk him out of it....but he wouldn't listen. He felt it was his calling in life, to defend out country at all costs. I tried to get him to see the world from the leftist view, i tried to tell him that the struggle here was much more important...all in vain. And before it he was off to his first day of training out in the station in Virginia.
a month or so later Nick had returned....a completely different person. The kiddish attitude that once made him a joy to be around was replaced by a cold heartlessness that would freeze a campfire. He had become so far right of the specter i didn't even know who he was anymore. He hated gays, he hated terrorists, and above all, he hated communists. The military indoctrinates its enlistees with a ultra-right doctrine that justifies the murder of all those who are not for "American Democracy". For the first time i had gotten a taste of the power the U.S. has over its own citizens. It made me scared, it mad me depressed, but above all it made me angry...
the point is, do not enter the US military if you're trying to answer a calling. your seat in the big house so to speak. To live for the emancipation of the working class and to achieve a world were we can all live happily, is the cause that to me is whats really worth fighting for. The choice is your ultimately however ive lost friends in the military and id hate to see a comrade meet the same fate as those i really cared about.
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Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:32 pm
Comrade Robson i have seen this instance more then i would have liked to........ i had a friend. Nick we'll call him. Kick and i were best friends for a very very long time. We were very close, i would've done anything for this kid. High school roles around and we assume our stances in the high school social structure. I become a Communist forged by my friends whom always looked down on it which caused me to look into it in the first place. My friend nick however, always fascinated with guns, decided upon joining the U.S. Military after our school was visited by those b*****d army recruiters. So effortlessly i tried to talk him out of it....but he wouldn't listen. He felt it was his calling in life, to defend out country at all costs. I tried to get him to see the world from the leftist view, i tried to tell him that the struggle here was much more important...all in vain. And before it he was off to his first day of training out in the station in Virginia. a month or so later Nick had returned....a completely different person. The kiddish attitude that once made him a joy to be around was replaced by a cold heartlessness that would freeze a campfire. He had become so far right of the specter i didn't even know who he was anymore. He hated gays, he hated terrorists, and above all, he hated communists. The military indoctrinates its enlistees with a ultra-right doctrine that justifies the murder of all those who are not for "American Democracy". For the first time i had gotten a taste of the power the U.S. has over its own citizens. It made me scared, it mad me depressed, but above all it made me angry... the point is, do not enter the US military if you're trying to answer a calling. your seat in the big house so to speak. To live for the emancipation of the working class and to achieve a world were we can all live happily, is the cause that to me is whats really worth fighting for. The choice is your ultimately however ive lost friends in the military and id hate to see a comrade meet the same fate as those i really cared about. Comrade Robson and I have already discussed this privately but I'd like to make public what I said and hopefully it can help others in here see where I'm coming from as well. Probably not though. The calling that I speak of is not a calling to serve this country. ******** no. I feel called to fight, to just be a soldier. As a soldier I do not decide where I go or when. Who I fight and how. That's part of the job description. But just because that's my job doesn't mean it won't be challenging and rewarding and fulfilling and all that jazz. I'm finding it harder and harder to come up with things that are actually difficult for me. I think this is a good opportunity. After this Comrade Robson asked me "what of the class struggle here?" and what I basically have to say to that is, I'm not really going anywhere. I'm still a US citizen and according to my contract I'll only be "deployable" for like 2 or 3 years. (I realize these things can change, but it will never be more than 4 or 5, in fact for me that's a highly unlikely scenario. Even 3 years is not likely). I think that we need the military on our side, we need some people to go in and try to break that right wing ideology. Whether it be loudly or just whispers in the barracks. There are already others in there doing this. Not EVERYONE in the military is heartless cold republicans. Most of the enlisted personnel come from working class families, families that struggle. A lot of them are Mexican first or second generation immigrants. Don't you think that if they did something like sign their life away just to protect their family and have money for them they'd at least have an open ear to me (a superior officer mind you) who is describing to them a better and permanent system?
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:34 am
You know, I will probably join the military as well, but not for a higher calling. To put it simply, military history intrigues me, especially naval warfare. The chance to serve is irresistible. I don't want to join the US miitary, though. I'm thinking the Filipino Navy. They take English speaking foreigners, and if I join I will likely be a pirate hunter, which is a job I'm sure all of you would see as nessesary. Filipino pirate hunters are badass. They teach you how to do stuff like kicking an assault rifle out of somebodies hands so that you don't have to kill him.
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:47 am
The Amazing Jabels You know, I will probably join the military as well, but for a different reason than that I feel a calling. I want to learn to sail, and what better place to do so than the Navy? Plus I get college money and a massive enlistment bonus. Thing is, I don't want to join the US military, and the only other English speaking countries that will take foreigners into their militaries are Ireland and Trinidad and Tobago. I'm thinking Trinidad and Tobago. Would they still pay for your college and give you an enlistment bonus? I'm not getting paid much for college, and that enlistment bonus is far from massive. Also, in the marines they don't give out enlistment bonuses and they barely give you anything for college loan repayment. Which makes me think that a nation that might not be as wealthy as the states wouldn't offer those services.
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:59 am
xion-dono The Amazing Jabels You know, I will probably join the military as well, but for a different reason than that I feel a calling. I want to learn to sail, and what better place to do so than the Navy? Plus I get college money and a massive enlistment bonus. Thing is, I don't want to join the US military, and the only other English speaking countries that will take foreigners into their militaries are Ireland and Trinidad and Tobago. I'm thinking Trinidad and Tobago. Would they still pay for your college and give you an enlistment bonus? More than the US. Irish soldiers get a lot of benifits. Anyway, I founds a better military and edited my post with the info. The Phillipines are moving twords socialism rather rapidly, so it's not like I'll be fighting for a bunch of Capitalists.
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