Welcome to Gaia! ::

Serve Onto Them Fine Wines And Oblivion...

Back to Guilds

 

Tags: Evil, Combat, Military, Legendary, Role Playing 

Reply Combat
The Grappling Issue

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Michael Noire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:03 pm



I was in the process of writing up a character for a table top RPG this morning, and ended up being reminded of something that irked me:

Grappling.

Grappling is not only a problem in Free Form roleplaying, it is also a problem in most table top systems AND video games. If you have ever played PVP fighting games like Streetfighter or SoulCalibur, you know the Grappling techniques are generally harder to execute properly and rarely as effective for setting up combos as we would all like.

Riposte techniques present problems similar to grappling. Both require the attacker to generally be within some kind of proximity and require multiple steps for execution.

To elucidate, suppose we have two fighters, named Uke and Seme, respectively. Sorry, "Pimp" and "b***h" were taken.

Grappling example:

Uke attacks seme with a kick;
Seme at this point either
1. takes the hit
2. dodges the hit
3. takes the hit and grapples
4. intercepts the hit and grapples

#1 is the easiest, #2 is the hardest, and 3 & 4 are somewhere in between, but both are more complicated.

#2 and # 3 require Seme to have a higher initiative in most systems, or simply, be "faster". In Free form, convincing the other guy that you are faster is like asking someone else to suck you off.

In fact, this is the number 1 reason Grappling runs into problems.


In order of real world difficulty, from easiest to hardest, we have

4. take the hit
3. take the hit and grapple
2. intercept the hit and grapple
1. dodge


Unfortunately, if you are slow, or have good distance, it's often easier to dodge than to intercept, especially in terms of thinking it through. For example, if someone is running to attack you, you can run away, ensuring total failure in their attack. To intercept automatically implies if you fail to intercept they are already in range to attack, which puts you on the defensive.

Psychologically, if two free formers are fighting, and the first attacker has the second on the defensive, they have the social "higher ground" and the person who manages to escape is thought to be "cheap" or "godmoding". In reality, things are quite different.

When Uke is attacking Seme, as in our previous example, Seme doesn't have to expend any energy whatsoever to bring in Uke's attack. Not only that, but if Seme is capable of dodging the attack, it also means they are capable of grappling it, TWICE.

A person can only dodge an attack once, but they can attempt to grapple the same attack twice - once in terms of intercept, and once in terms of after being hit. If you know where you are going to be hit, intercepting is really easy, for the same reason a catcher in Baseball or goalie in hockey can capture the other teams projectile.

Certain styles of martial arts and weapon fighting then do a variety of things depending on the type of capture. In jujitsu for example, you might capture the incoming leg and roll inward to break the leg at various joints; in Karate you might capture the leg to provide an opportunity to counterstrike; in Aikido you might attempt to roll with the kick and let it accelerate you and the attacker into a position where you take their center of gravity.

With Riposte techniques, there's not much difference. If Uke swings a sword forward into a thrust, Seme might parry the blade while lunging forward to stab Uke in the heart. This of course runs into the 4 same scenarios for Seme:

1. gets stabbed
2. dodge or parry
3. get stabbed and counter
4. intercept and counter

example counters with weapons include disarm and counterattack.

dodge and parry have essentially the same effect - not get hit.
Block is the unarmed equivalence to Parry, and both have drawbacks.

With block you can get hurt, but you can also wear things like wrist or shin guards, shields, and so forth. With parry, your weapon can transfer the shock unless your weapon is incredibly heavy (and thus slow), and lighter weapons tend to be more fragile (most of the time).

The advantage to dodging is never worrying about damaging yourself or your weapons, the disadvantage is the reduction in the ability to counter or grapple. Once two fighters, or two weapons clash, the change in motion between either can more easily be sensed.


In game terms, we know right off the bat grapple/riposte moves are more complex, but do they necessarily take more time?

The answer depends. If you ask "if two people are swinging swords simultaneously, does a parry-riposte take longer?" the answer is yes, because the Parry-riposte person has to wait for the first attacker to come in reach. Likewise if an Aikidoist were attacked by a boxer, they would have to wait for the boxer to throw the first punch in order to capture it.

Now the real questions are "how much time?" and "is it always the case that a grappler or riposte master will act second?". The answers might be surprisingly simple.

A counter move can begin either on reception within a boundary of capture - such as if the incoming fist gets close enough for you to catch with your hand, to the very beginning of the move - such as a repositioning of the feet, leaning forward, or drawing back a weapon for strike. An aikidoist might then "enter" into the attack as the attack proceeds, moving slightly off center and reversing before, during, or after the same time anticipated for impact.

In other words, it is entirely possible for An attacker to be countered in less time than it would take for them to successfully score a hit, even though they took the initiative.

In Mantis style Kung Fu, students practice a series of offensive grappling techniques designed to trap or grab the opponent's limbs. On a similar note, there's nothing to stop a Fencer from making blade on blade contact to initiate the offensive for disarm or cleverly bypassing the target's ability to parry a normal attack.


Comments and elaborations on this problem are welcome.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:39 pm


First off, I enjoyed reading this very much. It brought to light a few things that I had been wondering as well as answered a few questions I never thought to ask.

However, I still have one. What happens when it's two 'masters' and they wind up RPing actions within almost the same moment of time based on their opponent?

It goes so far as to where each person edits the other persons post.

To use your dummy characters as aids, the example is as follows:


post 1
Uke attacks Seme with a side kick to the ribs.


post 2
Seme reacts by stepping into the kick and grabbing it as it impacts.


(this would be where it all starts.)

post 3
post 2
Seme reacts by stepping into the kick-
Uke notices the advancement and recognizes the counter. He pulls his leg back and shifts it to an axe kick for Seme's head while he is trying to counter the side kick.


And so on and so forth till the actual fight is ended in, as I've seen, OOC argument, bitching, whining, and generally a whole lot of pouting.

Any help to clarify just where to draw the line on this, how plausible it is in your opinion, or how would you react in a situation where someone was using this style against you would be greatly appreciated.

Jeshia

Dangerous Lunatic


Michael Noire

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:32 pm



The first solution to any chain reaction or action interrupt argument is Momentum.

I. An object in motion will tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force.

--> If Uke is kicking Seme, then Uke is generating momentum to start the kick. As the kick begins to approach, it requires an equal amount of force to stop the kick and an equal amount to reverse it. Thus it is twice as hard to completely reverse an attack.

Each time you try to reverse a move, assume it requires double the energy; most tendons have a tensile strength of 600-750 N; so after 2 people trying to counter each other's actions each, 5 times, you would have 10 total reversals, or a factor of x1024. Except this isn't true.

In reality, your time would also be cut in half each time, and thus your velocity would have to increase by 100% The kinetic energy involved would not change the force exponentially, but force is a pointless equation without looking at it in terms of kinetic energy or power.

In this case, you need to realize doubling the speed of something requires 4 times the energy. So it would become as much as 1 million times more difficult by the time each poster got to the 5th reversal. 10 reversals would be a trillion times as bad, and 15 would require both characters to be moving matter at speeds sufficient to destroy the galaxy.

In other words, There's an unwritten scale of speeds where Reversals are expected, but for human beings, or even humanoid beings who aren't full blown throne sitting wish granting gods, 4 times on both sides is the very high limit.

II. Gravity acts on all objects everywhere equally at a constant rate.

--> if you jump up in the air and reach an altitude of 5 meters, or about 16 feet, you will descend rapidly to the ground in about one second, and be moving at about 22 mph (~10 or 9.81 m/s) when you hit. Skipping the specifics, it is important to remember that the highest speed you can descend is based entirely on your altitude before descent.

If you didn't jump 2000 feet up, you aren't going to be coming back down to the ground at hundreds of mph. This also means a person can get out of the way pretty quickly.

Unfortunately for the dodging person, the maximum speed they can accelerate by is given by gravity, unless they have a wall, metal cleats, or something similar. It doesn't matter if your top speed is 600 mph, getting to 600 mph will still take at least 30 seconds (gravity being about 20 mph acceleration).


Say for example, you are 6 feet tall. You jump 12 feet straight up, and you want to land on my sword. I can move most sword sized objects several times in any direction before gravity pulls you down to meet my sword, so jumping on someone's sword is only useful if you just barely clear the present altitude of the blade or less, then kick down.



There's a lot more to be said, but I will summarize with your last question. Michael Noire is not a playable or balanced character, but I would still stop at around 3 reversals unless I wasn't worried about the continuation of the galaxy.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:15 am


I thank you.

You're very knowledgeable on this subject and the ones that correspond to it.

Jeshia

Dangerous Lunatic

Reply
Combat

 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum