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I guess this is part of the evolution of democracy? Or should I say, DE-evolution.

What was it in the Constitution that made it seem so good? The Right to Freedom of so and so? I think spying on people takes away from these rights, these freedoms.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ithi. People who can justify and accept having their freedom usurped for the sake of security might as well be locked up and the key thrown away. Face it, people: it may not be much right now, but we're starting to creep into that very dangerous word of 'fascism'.

I know, I know, that word's pretty big, and has many MANY consequences. Having your government openly playing big brother like that is scary. It's possible, prolly very likely, that any and most established governments have been doing that for awhile now...just that this issue in particular has put a bigger spotlight on it.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't like having to watch what I say online, on the phone, or in letters. I don't like having to look over my shoulder and having to think twice on everything I do, not on the basis of my own beliefs or morals, but on the basis of getting caught and thrown in jail. Yeah, maybe I'm reaching a bit, maybe I'm as crazy as Ithi.

Sure, maybe no one's listening to the phone calls as they happen. Sure, maybe they're being recorded, put in a vault and will probably be forgotten. But to me, it isn't so much the actual ACT, it isn't so much what they're DOING, but the plethora of vices and dreadful POSSIBILITIES of where actions like THESE will eventually lead. Think about it, people. The similarities are there.

BTW: Democrats are saying they WILL NOT pursue impeaching Bush for anything, apparently -_- the American Democartic Party need to grow a pair razz

Well, in observing people IRL here in Canada, and in observing politics, media, and general reaction in the States, there are a couple of things that kinda scare me about the state of the world. (for the purposes of ready example, I will use Bush)

1. The people who truly buy into some of the crap Bush and his Administration lay out there. The fact that he got re-elected is scary, the fact that among all those who actually voted, a bit more than 50% *actually* thought he should be re-elected. I mean, Kerry wasn't great, but I guess people should have thought, "he can't be worse than Bush", rather than thinking, "Let's go with the Devil we know" scenario. Then, there are those who actually liked Bush from the beginning.

2. Those who actually think with their heads may be doing too much thinking and not enough acting? I don't know, but I've come to realize there are a lot of people out there who are smart enough to know fact from fiction, truth from bullshit, that simply don't care. At least they don't care enough to make any lasting action, and that's probably the scariest part. I quote Batman Begins: "What happens when the good people do nothing?"

3. Patriotism, and God as your 'sponsor'. This probably SICKENS me the most. The idea that you're unpatriotic if you don't support a certain train of thought. The idea that you're only as safe as how much you're willing to give up. That's just sick. The whole idea, the whole premise, behind this INSANE WAR that Bush has on Terrorism is that WE'RE NOT WILLING TO GIVE UP OUR FREEDOM, OUR RIGHTS, OUR LIBERTIES. That WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET THESE TERRORISTS DICTATE OUR LIVES. Now what happens? Spying, 'Patriot Act', censorship. It's bullshit.

Oh, and then he goes to say that GOD CHOSE HIM TO BE PRESIDENT. I don't know about you guys, but if ANY God that I know of actually chose Bush to be President on the basis that he'd be a good leader, then that's one sadistic God. Unless, of course, God chose him to President to punish us for our sins of pornography... xp

And the reason why the US in particular is so important is because the US make it a point to remind everyone they're the only remaining superpower, that they're the world leader, that the President is effectively the leader of the free and civilized. Anything and everything that happens in the US will--if not directly and immediately--indirectly and eventually affect everyone else. Canada, UK, Australia, Europe, Mexico, EVERYONE.

Then I'll draw your attention to the fact that they're breaking the law.

A government breaking the law is hardly unheard of, but I dunno.

Leadership and organization to form opposition?

The reason I said they could track me all they want is that I don't care what they find out about me. I don't think they should be doing this, and it is illegal, but as far as I'm concerned, let them spy on me if they feel the need. If they want to know it about it, they'll find out. I just feel there are bigger concerns to deal with right now than who calls me and why. Or what I'm spending my money on.

Yeah, but... how do we fix it?

There's got to be a better way to run a country.

"personally think that the hundreds of people dying in Darfur everyday is way more of an issue, way closer to what happened in 1940's Germany, and way more important than some suit in Washington hearing me tell my best friends all the gory details of my love life."
TC

Indeed I think it is, and I think it's more important the gay union, and immigration reform...but this issue has an importance in it touces allot of people directly, and thats why I have a strong hope it catches fire...the sad thing is...most people don't care about any issues because they are so in tune with such media driven bullshit they don't pay attention.

There are many ways to skin a cat, and I didn't like clinton, but this man isn't even a subtle tyrant like he was. I will be glad if they taken him down politically with anything they can find biggrin

Trust me, I know all the ways the government can track you. When I was in the marine corps, I worked in secured communications. I know from my own personal experiences with security clearances how much information they can have on you in seconds. But don't you see the progression of the logic in my sprevious statement's from this very comment?

At one time, it would have been an outrage to keep track of library records and what people read. In another time, it would cause an outrage to keep track of what your citizen's were purchasing. Now people are prone to, well, they certainly have allot of information on me, who cares if they start saving my phone calls? So whats next, terrorists blow up dirty bombs in new york, d.c, phili, atlanta, chicago, and l.a., and then, well...they already have our phone records, it's not such a big deal that they are bugging public transportation and common areas of buisiness? Lets declare martial law, you don't agree with us, well, you checked the koran out at the library one day, you borrowed the communist manifesto from the public library, two months ago, we have phone records that indicate that you spoke about your deislike for the president to your boy friend. You purchased a copy of the anarchists cook book online, a moth ago, what are you cooking up at home?

I know, I sound crazy, but it's to close to bugging my house, how much do we have to tollerate before that goes on without a warrent? I agree with you are there much more important issues in the world, but this is all part of the political climate. We want prayer in schools, we don't want immigrants, we need to tap your phone records, gays do not deserve the rights to be human beings. You don't see a facist trend there? Muslims are our common enemy, we detain them abroad with no ryhme or reason. I think it's quite appropriate you bring up genocide, because it's happening all over the place, and people aren't paying it much heed.

So what do you do to try and change things? I myself, have explored a number of options, and the most appropriate, and expiditious one to me seems to be to try and reach people who are reachable, so they can see whats going on. it's not an all consuming thing for me, but when the oppertunity for conversation comes up, why not. Hopefully, I can touch ten people, which I already have and tenfold, hopefully, they will touch at least ten more, and so own.