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The point of this is not to try and prove whether God exists or not, but rather, if the relevance of a God will always be there.

Let's take a look at this. In many religions there's the concept of an apocalypse. A time when people are judged as to whether they're truly good or not, those who are not condemned, and those who are condemned.

Now, if at this point all of society becomes "good", would God not destroy His own meaning?

At this point society would be perfect (whatever that utopia may be in the eyes of that religion), we'd all be perfect, lack of war or hatred. So at that point would we not need a God anymore? Think about it, God represents perfection, absolute perfection, and if at that point we've all become perfect wouldn't the concept of needing something perfect to look to become irrelevant?

Also, if God stands as someone who judges and punishes those for being evil, and if at this point evil does not exist anymore, wouldn't He again destroy His own meaning because there would be no evil to worry about and no-one to judge?

So, if any of this is true, if we can use that term, then, to continue the concept of God, would we not need to continue sinning, and avoid apocalypse at all costs? Somewhat of a contradictory statement, rather, would we need to continue having our quarrels short of destroying the human race to be able to support the concept of God?

Ideas???

See, the concept of apocalypse is basically to end the world of "sinners", in other words, Apocalypse leads to the second utopia.

I'm not completely understanding what you mean by "god/gods can exist without anyreal 'existance' around him/her", please explain further if you can. Thanks.

Now see, if in a religion, such as in Roman religion, when you would worship a god/ gods to attain something, say a good harvest, and it was believed that if you didn't, would that god/ god's not be judging you because they choose not to give you a good harvest (judging your lack of worship as 'bad'), or giving you a good harvest because you did worship?

I guess we should say, in concern to what you brought up, that the base meaning of a god, when this god was lonely, was not to judge humans, or whatever it was they created, but rather just to make a friend(s), however, through creating those friend(s) he created judgement.

sounds to me like a basic start to the 'problem of evil' that most of us have come across already. it's a nifty topic, and while i know that you stated 'the relevance of a god', i think the topic itself still deserves to be refreshed at little.

Wikipedia Crash Course. There, lemme toss that down as a quickie for everyone to thumb through real quick.

i'm not entirely clear at this time of night what 'relevance of god' would mean versus something about god existing, but who knows if a utopia could even exist.

being perfect (i believe) entails being free from any moral constraints as comes with omnipotence. but you cannot expect a society that is unbound by morals to not harm itself.

uh, crap. it's 2:30 in the morning here, i took a break to go get a cup of tea and lost my train of thought. cry

Sorry, I meant to add "Catholicism" after Roman...

Anyway, that's exactly what I'm arguing here is that His making us perfect would turn His meaning irrelevant. One could argue that the mere fact that he created us would be enough to keep him relevant, however, you must take into account, if God was perfect, would he really always need the attention? I'm not sure, I guess it's what you define as perfect, that's what it comes down to.

Why would he be lonely? Just because we're perfect doesn't mean that he would be lonely. We'd be there, we'd just never give him anything to get excited over.

Also, if he cast us off as a mistake, creating something in his image and then making it perfect, wouldn't that make God imperfect? I mean, if we eventually lead ourselves to be perfect, like God, and at that point we become a mistake, but we're perfect by God's standards, wouldn't that mean that God is imperfect, or at least to have made a mistake? And how do you make a mistake when you're perfect?

Haha, that is too true.

I don't believe God creates out of bordem, because the perfect nature of God would mean that he is never 'bored'. This of course poses the question, why did God create and is it better to have created a flawed man, or to never have created at all. I of course am very glad that he chose to create. wink

_Pearl.

well i think that there are a lot of unexamined assumptions in the original post and at points im not sure what the intentions are but i will go with what i can see.
so you are saying that apocalypse will remove the evil element and what remains will only be good. well i dont know if that will happen, i think of religious writing as being symbolic of personal and societal passages, but if it does the same rules will apply, God will not be changed nor will spiritual laws, it will remain important that people seek unity with god for to lose such just because the world is now all good would then lead back to evil.

"Now, if at this point all of society becomes "good", would God not destroy His own meaning? "
man made society, god is in all things but is not defined by them. i would
argue that it is the other way around, god gives definition, meaning. if something is to be destroyed then it is only to make room for a new birth. this is my opinion but if man were removed from the earth i believe that another species would at some point evolve to sentience because life is striving to reunite with god.

"At this point society would be perfect (whatever that utopia may be in the eyes of that religion), we'd all be perfect, lack of war or hatred. So at that point would we not need a God anymore? Think about it, God represents perfection, absolute perfection, and if at that point we've all become perfect wouldn't the concept of needing something perfect to look to become irrelevant?"
i think it is very unlikely that anything can bee achieved that is called perfect, perfect is a matter of opinion and is a concept to strive towards. ask ten people what the perfect society would be like and if you get an answer they will likely all be different especially when it gets to details. what we can strive for is a balanced and harmonious way of living. we see here the symbolism of these words, god, perfection and utopia are all ideals, concepts to be worked for but there is no static form to be achieved or factually known, though i think there is a god he is not what we think or perhaps can think of, beyond thought. so this symbolism i suspect is mostly referring to the Christian apocalypse from the Revelation of John, which is an apocrypha, or coded writing. at the time of authorship the romans were being a real pain to the early Christians who were growing in power. to spread propaganda it had to be written in code, especially if it might be anti-roman. it has been said that Revelations speaks of the fall of the enemies of Christianity. my own opinion is that it speaks of the passages of the spiritual evolution of individuals. the numbers are very important as they make reference to aspects of the self and of life in symbolic terms that cannot be decoded by using the bible alone. the trouble with the bible as it is, besides the blind translations and editing over the years, the bible was meant to be a part of a teaching, there is meaning in the world that is not apparent to just anyone who reads them. the bible is meant to be a study guide for disciples who have learned the true meaning from their masters. much of that meaning is lost today for the sake of blind faith and literal reading.

"Also, if God stands as someone who judges and punishes those for being evil, and if at this point evil does not exist anymore, wouldn't He again destroy His own meaning because there would be no evil to worry about and no-one to judge?"
gods meaning does not come from the roles said to be taken by him by man. god does not punish us, we sin and the law of karma retributes, to keep the scales balanced. there is a price for everything we do our choices, thoughts and actions bring our fortune or destruction.

"So, if any of this is true, if we can use that term, then, to continue the concept of God, would we not need to continue sinning, and avoid apocalypse at all costs? Somewhat of a contradictory statement, rather, would we need to continue having our quarrels short of destroying the human race to be able to support the concept of God?"
a very valid conclusion based on your prepositions, but god does not need our concepts however we do need god for without seeking to know a higher power we may be resigned to ignorant egotism, and become more than an animal but less than a man. a creature sick with stunted growth indulging in whatever impulses that strike him. being good is a discipline, an everyday affair, if all the evil in the world is wiped away then we must guard ourselves more diligently for we would be in danger of sinning perhaps exactly for the reason you give, to support the knowledge of good and evil as spoken of in genesis, to remain as gods. if we are all good then there is no need to have evil to support such but i think that in that state we would be inseparable from god as opposed to without need for him.