disorder or reorder?

[AbrAbraxas]

my young nephew was recently diagnosed with aspergers syndrome as such i have grown quite an interest in the subject. a tv show on my local PBS station discussed new learning methods for young people with this "disorder" Face Reader and more interesting The Engineers Disease and it got me thinking about something that i was diagnosed with when i was young. I was diagnosed with ADD Attention Deficit Disorder, which despite common knowledge is very different than ADHD which has a Hyperactive element. i would choose to call it a different order as opposed to a disorder because i do not see a lack of attention in myself but that i do things differently. sometimes i get so involved with an activity that i forget other things. other times i focus so much on some details that other details pass right by. when i was young this led to problems as of course i had not yet learned to maneuver efficiently, but also because the school system was built for a certain type of youth and anyone else was likely to have trouble, not to mention the fact that my peers knew better than i did how different i was. just some thoughts, anyone else have thoughts on this or similar subjects?  

[MegaTherion777]

i've long been of the opinion that many of these disorders such as ADD are not as big of a problem as we make them out to be. i've always thought that ADD and similar "problems" aren't really problems at all but are different ways of interacting with the world. they are less common than other ways, and are thus viewed as problems. because when the majority communicate in one way and a small minority communicate in another it can cause trouble when one tries to teach both groups in the same environment. but the problem doesn't lie in the alternate way of communicating with the world, it lies in the fact that others can't or don't teach or communicate with the individual in a proper manner.

i generally am skeptical of disorders, and think that it's just a different way of looking at and doing things. i think it is folly to prescribe drugs to control some of these things because the drugs are 1) an attempt to control another person's personality and 2) attempt to eradicate this different way of looking at things, rather than letting us try to understand it. maybe if we understood the alternate method better we would be able to deal with it better, but with drugs controlling the individuals who communicate in this way, that makes it impossible.

i think my language is jumbled and stumbling - my ideas are kinda hard to express properly. if anything is unclear, ask and i'll try to explain...  

[27x]

HAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA lol lol lol lol
I have add and asp ergers syndrom, and I'm just fine. Some times I switch between socially distant, and agressive, and often I have to say," I'm sorry what did you say?" Because I lose focus on the speaker, but it's fine otherwise.

Take two people with glasses. One might have worse vision than the other, and thusly woudl have bigger glasses.

Some people have bigger cases of mental disorders and show more active symptoms. I have a mild case of both. I take concerta, and resperadall, and then I am just fine. You shoudl take your nephew to a siciatrist. It takes a few months to mix and match medecines, what with human individuality and all, but pretty soon you'll find a fit.  

[MegaTherion777]

I_27_04

HAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA lol lol lol lol
I have add and asp ergers syndrom, and I'm just fine. Some times I switch between socially distant, and agressive, and often I have to say," I'm sorry what did you say?" Because I lose focus on the speaker, but it's fine otherwise.
Take two people with glasses. One might have worse vision than the other, and thusly woudl have bigger glasses.

i think all people do this, whether they have "disorders" or not. i know i've done it...a lot...

i like the analogy with the glasses, too.  

[27x]

Hahah I have glasses too. I've had them since I was six. I'm still fine.  

[AbrAbraxas]

i think the use of drugs is a symptom of a maladjusted attempt to fix everything in a purely physical realm(which reality is more than physical) and also the kind of magic bullet wish. many parents are too busy to do the hard work of raising kids right and if a child is not "normal" or what was expected they are not always preapred to put the effort into providing the kind of care needed or have the patience to learn how. this is what i have observed with many people my own age when i was in school, on the other hand many parent of children with extreme disabilities, such as downs syndrome dedicate thier lives to care and sometimes drugs can be a beneficial part of a therapuetic treatment, i know as i was one a couple of differnet medicines growing up and am no longer taking them. imimprimene(spelling?), during youth and adderall in my teen years. both helped me learn ways to cope with, and work with my condition, adderall in particular helped me learn a lot, but it is not the case with many children, i think in many ways i am an exception, though i dont know why. just always have been.
good discussion all.  

[MegaTherion777]

AbrAbraxas

i think the use of drugs is a symptom of a maladjusted attempt to fix everything in a purely physical realm(which reality is more than physical) and also the kind of magic bullet wish. many parents are too busy to do the hard work of raising kids right and if a child is not "normal" or what was expected they are not always preapred to put the effort into providing the kind of care needed or have the patience to learn how.

yeah, that's basically what i was trying to express in my previous post. abraxas, you have a better knack for language than i do lol  

[27x]

AbrAbraxas

i think the use of drugs is a symptom of a maladjusted attempt to fix everything in a purely physical realm(which reality is more than physical) and also the kind of magic bullet wish. many parents are too busy to do the hard work of raising kids right and if a child is not "normal" or what was expected they are not always preapred to put the effort into providing the kind of care needed or have the patience to learn how. this is what i have observed with many people my own age when i was in school, on the other hand many parent of children with extreme disabilities, such as downs syndrome dedicate thier lives to care and sometimes drugs can be a beneficial part of a therapuetic treatment, i know as i was one a couple of differnet medicines growing up and am no longer taking them. imimprimene(spelling?), during youth and adderall in my teen years. both helped me learn ways to cope with, and work with my condition, adderall in particular helped me learn a lot, but it is not the case with many children, i think in many ways i am an exception, though i dont know why. just always have been.
good discussion all.

NO F***ING WAY! I used to take adderal too. Instead of calming me down though, it made he hyper, which wasn't the desired effect. As humans we have different bodies than eachother, and therefore different medecine works for different people. Similar to blood. An englishman might survive a little blood loss at most hospitals, but a cherakee indian will probably die, because there is no blood that will work for him.

In medecine some things work for some people, and some things work for all people. Its a mix and match really. Lots of parents are frustrated by the first couple of medecine switches and turn to something else.

My grandma is where my aspergers and add came from, then to my father, and then to me. My grandma overcame her illness with simple effort, with no medecine whatsoever. My dad couldn't, and also had much worse symptoms than my grandmother. He was often treated severely for his outbersts of energy, and sillyness, and today has many emmotionall problembs. Though the medecine helps some, he was told that he was the problemb, as a child, and now, often refuzes to take it. When he doesen't his symptoms come back, and is easy to anger, as well as not knowing when to stop, and irrationality.

I don't have very severe symptoms( Since I am three generations from my grandma the mental disorders are wattered down), so a little medecine works for me. My children will probably have less than me, and so on.

In a game I play called oblivion: The elder scrolls, a player has many oportunities to become a vampire. After the person becomes a vampire he has many gifts, that increase as he goes withotu sucking blood. The first day he has a weakness to fire, gets no dmg from sunlight, and has a few attribute bonuses. Each day withotu blood these bonuses increase, though after the first day without blood, 24 hours to be precice, there is a greater weakness to fire, the sun, and twards other npc's. Medecine is like this. It patches up the problemb so you don't have to deal with it. This may seem stupid, but consider the fact taht medecine is really the only way to lessen the effects of some mental disorders at all.

It's like physicle education. If you do too much, then you will get injured. If you don't do it at all, then you will be weak, but it is one of the few only ways to make yourself stronger and healthyer. If you work out for a while, then stop, the effects will go away, but people still work out don't they?

If you don't eat, you will die. You eat to keep yourself full. If you eat too much you will get fat. But when you do eat, it wears off, it is a temporary patch.

When you buy cloths, they eveuntally wear out, then you have to get new ones. Same with lightbulbs, cars, computers, scisors, knives, pipes, beds.

Medecine may only cover up the problemb, but that doesen't mean it's bad.
If you only take a pain killer instead of going to the hospital to treat a wound, or perhaps an illness like strep throaght, then you will suffer, it only patches it up a little. But you cant just go and pay for a mentall illness to be fixed completel like a wound, or a(treatable, or curable) illness. It will never go away. You just patch it up for a little bit. Just like food, just like water, just like exercise, just like cloths, and just like most things of life. And really tending to a wound, heals you for a bit, but you will get hurt again later on in your life. No things are permanant, all things are temporary.

Now, imagine you are hyper, you have no idea when to stop talking, or when people don't want to hear when to say. You literally don't know when to stop anything. You are silly, use energy when not needed with most things, occasionally shout random bits of nonverbal sounds, can't focus much on anything, and now everyone around you is telling you there is something wrong with you, and that you need to fix it, though you don't know what's rong. this can devestate a childhood. Medecine makes the brain work right, so A doesent have to worry about his/her B.

It's not really a bad thing. So what if it has the word drugs in it. It is not addictive or dependant. Bad drugs are meant to A: Get you addicted B: Mellow you out and C: make you temporarily happy. That way you will allways use that drug from then on. Not only to they test drugs to make sure they arn't addictive before letting them out now, but they don't try for temprory happieness or mellowing out. When they make good drugs they focus on A: making sure it works, and helps in some way B: Takes away something that the brain or body doesen't need, or shouldnt have(depending on the drug, some drugs add) C: Add something that the brain or body doesen't have or needs(Depending on the drug, some times it just takes away or both).

Anyway I've talked enough about this. one day when you get old, you will have to take medecine anyway, then you might change your mind.  

[AbrAbraxas]

I_27_04

It's not really a bad thing. So what if it has the word drugs in it. It is not addictive or dependant. Bad drugs are meant to A: Get you addicted B: Mellow you out and C: make you temporarily happy. That way you will allways use that drug from then on. Not only to they test drugs to make sure they arn't addictive before letting them out now, but they don't try for temprory happieness or mellowing out. When they make good drugs they focus on A: making sure it works, and helps in some way B: Takes away something that the brain or body doesen't need, or shouldnt have(depending on the drug, some drugs add) C: Add something that the brain or body doesen't have or needs(Depending on the drug, some times it just takes away or both).

Anyway I've talked enough about this. one day when you get old, you will have to take medecine anyway, then you might change your mind.

you are right, there are many illnesses that are too overwhelming to just go away on their own, but i think that there is more that can be done than to prescribe medicine. when you have a child that is bored it is not a reasonable answer to sit them in front of the tv everyday to occupy them. thats just my opinion but the easy answer is not really better in the long run. you were really on to something there in the middle when you speak of moderation but you also need synergy, complementary treatments. giving a person a pill to make their problems go away does not always make them healthy. lets speak about something different than inborn illness what really gets me is depression medicine. i understand that it can have a beneficial effect and through therapy and education one can learn to live without it. however that is not what ends up happening. people who become depressed often put themselves into depression and expend a great deal of energy to stay depressed, they need to be educated, they need to see what they do to themselves, but they do not always have the ability to find out for themselves. so they go to a doctor, what does he do? take this pill and go home, goto therapy once a month and complain about what you think is wrong. but rarely is there education. this person came to a doctor with the knowledge that things need to change but they take this pill and "feel" better, they think "oh well this is all i need." but this chemical is masking the source of the illness, whatever it might be, bad relationship, wrong world view, whatever. so the source is there but the symptoms are masked.
now lets think about what that might mean, if a runner pulls a muscle in his leg but really wants to goto a competition, say he takes pain pills so that he can ignore the pain and run anyways... what is going to happen? the injury will get worse and he will not know as long as he masks the symptoms. what often happens with depressed people is that they dont get better, if they did who would buy all that prosac? you see the pharmaceutical companies are businesses, they sell products and while early on they were very concerned with helping people and while their employees might work under such a pretense, their actions are not encouraging people to get better, but work towards making money.
now you speak of addiction and bad drugs as if there is some clear definition between good and bad, but in philosophical thought we have to question everything that we once knew. addiction has different definitions, simply i would say that it is a habit out of control. the drug however is not the cause but the trigger. what is the cause? it is hard to pinpoint precisely and perhaps is different for different people. i have considered drug use a great deal, as i am commonly an exception. i have used drugs, the kind which you would no doubt call "bad" drugs, and i am not addicted and no longer use them. i find myself a better person as a result of my experiences, but as i have said i am an exception. many people are not configured to experience pleasurable things and not become attached, that is one way to say it. i know that the physical world is exactly what it appears to be once you clear the muck from your eyes, but the real mysteries and delights lie in the levels above and below, where most people never think to look. why should i be attached to the triggers of this world when i seek bigger better things. now i would never encourage any one to do what i have done, for we each have our own way and mine was wrought with danger and i consider myself lucky to be where i am, seemingly undamaged by seemingly reckless actions.
back to the point, if someone is put indefinitely on an anti-depressant to mask the feelings that are not going to go away without proper experience are they not addicted? nothing is solved by running away, you have to stand and face yourself, observe yourself, know yourself before you can be healthy. and yes they do test drugs, but i want you to do some research on paxil, on some of the ill effects have been caused by the once revered drug which they still prescribe. if you stop taking it after taking it for years... you can DIE.
i think that there are interior and exterior realms of our beings and there needs to be balance between the two. without such there will be terrible consequences. if you expect to be happy without developing internally then you are fooling yourself, if you try to treat an interior ailment with the exterior factors of medicines that too is fooling the self and it wont work in the long run.
it is true some people are over whelmed by thier conditions and, some have let it go too long and medicine is a good idea, but i believe to should be administered with an education of how to develop our interior being.
i think i have said too much already,
good day  

[MegaTherion777]

the problem is that many people are lazy and don't want to learn how to "develop [their] interior being." if there's an easy fix, even if it's only temporary, they're going to take that way out i.e. use the drugs without focusing on what's actually causing the depression.

my family has a history of depression on both sides, and there was a time when i believe i was depressed. i never went to a head-shrinker, never got diagnosed, but what i was going through seems to fit the general description of depression. it got pretty friggin bad too, but i guess i'm on of those rare ones who managed to pull myself out of it, i'm much better now. yes, i've still got some days that are troublesome, but it's not every day for three years that i feel that way anymore - it's just once in a while.

now, don't ask me what i did to get out of that bad place - i don't know. i was young and wasn't sure exactly what i was doing, all i know is that by fighting to get through each day i eventually reached some point where i realized it wasn't so bad. that i may have been making things worse for myself than they had to be. and since that, i've been more or less fine.  

[27x]

I've gotten bored with saying the same thing over and over again. Refuzal to post  

[MegaTherion777]

I_27_04

I've gotten bored with saying the same thing over and over again. Refuzal to post

i think you've missed the point abraxas is trying to make...or who knows, maybe i missed it, but from what i understand, he isn't saying that medication is bad, he's just saying that in some cases it is prescribed when it doesn't need to be, or worse yet, it is used as a solitary means of helping an illness when it would function best when paired with some other form of medical care.

at least that's what i get out of it  

[AbrAbraxas]

I_27_04

I've gotten bored with saying the same thing over and over again. Refuzal to post

that is fine, but i may i remind you that discussion is give and take. you read what has been posted and either reevaluate your stance, clarify your opposition or stand mute. but there is no reason that you should say the same thing over and over.
when i say or write things that are in seeming opposition to what another has said it is not to tell them that they are wrong, it is to show that there are other perspectives, that our perspective is limited and to think or believe only in what one thinks without considering or acknowledging other perspectives is narrow minded.

and mega, oyu may not know how but i too was an exception and it can easily be summed up as such "the only way out is through." many people grow tired or fearful or comfortable while in depression and thus stop moving forward. some even struggle needlessly as if they were fighting water, with no results.
good day all  

[MegaTherion777]

AbrAbraxas

I_27_04

I've gotten bored with saying the same thing over and over again. Refuzal to post

that is fine, but i may i remind you that discussion is give and take. you read what has been posted and either reevaluate your stance, clarify your opposition or stand mute. but there is no reason that you should say the same thing over and over.
when i say or write things that are in seeming opposition to what another has said it is not to tell them that they are wrong, it is to show that there are other perspectives, that our perspective is limited and to think or believe only in what one thinks without considering or acknowledging other perspectives is narrow minded.

and mega, oyu may not know how but i too was an exception and it can easily be summed up as such "the only way out is through." many people grow tired or fearful or comfortable while in depression and thus stop moving forward. some even struggle needlessly as if they were fighting water, with no results.
good day all

"the only way out is through"... i guess that brings new meaning to the family motto - i'm part of the scottish hamilton clan, and the motto is "through." i always kinda wondered "through what?" but i guess it's through anything; just seeing whatever problems through to the end, or whatever good things too...  

[Pinny Nickels]

I agree with you. I don't know much about aspergers, but I was diagnosed with ADD too and I don't consider it to be a disorder. I also had taking my ADD medicine because I don't think it's fixing any "chemical imbalance", I just think it's changing me. Yes, I do have trouble paying attention often in class and concentrating on my work, but in my head I think about other things hat I am more interested in and I don't think it's so terrible, I just think it makes me unfit for certain subjects in school.
Some subjects, like history, I have no problem in without my medication, but other subjects, like math and science just bore me and without my medication no matter how much I try I'm still not interested in most of what we learn in them so my brain decides to ignore what I learn and throw the information away.

The truth is, everyone's brain works differently, and everyone's chemical balances are different.

This is the slightest bit off topic, but I also think schitzos aren't as crazy as most people say they are. I think a lot of them might actually just be really smart and know things that other people don't want them to know, so these people labeled them as crazy to protect themselves. I have friends who have been diagnosed with a lot of mental illnesses, and if I didn't refuse to talk to phsyciatrists and doctors I would probably be diagnosed with more than just depression. But it's funny how people who claim they see ghosts or aliens are considered crazy, but all these religious people running around talking about "God" and whatnot are "normal".