Welcome to Gaia! ::

Hello everyone! This is my first topic in this guild!
*prays that it won't get deleted...*

sweatdrop

I'll try to keep the language toned down as much as possible, but keep in mind that this is still a mature discussion of sexual issues. If you feel uncomfortable with that you probably shouldn't be reading this.

Anyway, here's my little story.

Despite the fact that I label myself as bisexual, I have never had sex with a man, nor do I foresee myself ever doing so. I've found the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with; we've been together for quite a while and we're definitely in for the long haul. We're going to have a commitment ceremony in the summer of 09.
This probably leads others to label me as a lesbian, but I still call myself bi to recognize the capability I still have inside me to be attracted to men.

This leads me to my question.
Consider the situation of a person like myself - someone who, for whatever reason, has never been with someone of the opposite sex and has no desire to do so. Assume that the person in question will never engage in straight sex at any time in their life.

At what point would you consider this person not a "virgin"?
At any kind of penetration? Oral? Or would the person remain a "virgin" in your eyes forever?
How does your definition of "virgin" change for someone who's gay compared to someone who's straight?
Why does it change? Why don't the same acts have the same meaning in both homosexual and heterosexual relationships? It strikes me as being a pretty large double-standard, now that I think about it...
(note: you don't need to discuss ALL this crap. XP)

I've pretty much come to my own conclusions about this topic after a lot of thought; I'm just interested to hear and discuss other's thoughts and opinions.

I happen to have a very liberal view of virginity that's been somewhat solidified by my involvement in the queer community.

Most of society appears to think that you're a virgin until you've had sex involving penile penetration of...something. A lot of people appear to think that oral sex isn't "serious sex" or something like that.

I personally think that vaginal, oral, a**l, manual, clitoral, and so on all count as virginity-killers, if you will. This kind of definition is especially important in the lesbian context. Clitoral stimulation, for instance, doesn't necessarily mean penetration, but it can bring you to orgasm, you can be doing it with someone else, and if you do both of the above many, many, many times all your life, are you really still a virgin? 'Cause personally, I think that promiscuous or just extremely active lesbians are pretty non-virgin. It'd be pretty funny to have great sex everywhere and call yourself a virgin, really.

I use this standard for pretty much everyone, but when it comes down to it I just ask the person if they still think of themselves as a virgin. I'm not about to pry, so what matters most is what individual themselves think.

But yeah...Winget's definition of any intimate sexual encounter with another person kind of captures the idea.

Finally the confusion ends!

I personally think that vaginal, oral, a**l, manual, clitoral, and so on all count as virginity-killers, if you will.

Agreed. P-into-V as a way of deciding virginity is a decidedly heterocentric way of doing things. Men are not necessary for sex.

I agree that "taking care of yourself," as you so skillfully put it, is definitely not virginity-annihilating. My opinion is that it's a perfectly healthy, normal way of addressing your personal physical needs, and getting familiar with yourself.

One problem a lot of girls have with orgasms seems to be that they don't know themselves. Most guys do--it's well known what kinds of work on males will bring orgasm about, and it's widely socially accepted for men to indulge in the kind of behavior that does that.

On the other hand, there's this huge social stigma surrounding females doing the same thing, and the public in general seems to be severely underinformed about what gets a girl off. A lot of times, people seriously don't know what the clitoris is, and they can't at all identify it or where it is. I think girls should get to know themselves and what gets them off, because if they don't know themselves...how the hell is anyone else going to figure it out? You're probably in for some seriously bad sex until you figure yourself out.

I think someone looses their virginity when they become intimate with someone. I think it's defined on a personal level as well. Having sex with a man or woman would constitute it in my opinion. 3nodding I don't think oral sex counts. It's...like...the foreplay to losing virginity.

I hope that helps. sweatdrop

Hrm... This reminds me of my first visit with checkup with the gyno... =_=
She asks me if I'm a virgin and I'm like: "Heh... And what exactly is it you see as still being a virgin? ^^;;" (This was when I was still in Germany and soo not out and quite so comfortable bout my sexuality)
And my doc's like: "What do you mean what do I see as a virgin? You either are, or you're not!"
Me: "Well.. I mean... I've like.. well... you know... never had sex with a guy... but I have had it... *squirms in seat*"
And my doc gave me this dumbfounded look, like she really didn't know what the hell I was talking about =___= Yeah... def made my first checkup quite an interesting one... So I ended up just saying that yes, I am still a virgin, cause I really didn't feel like going into details with her *shakes head*

And now if someone asks me, my answer is "If you mean have I ever slept with a boy, then yes, I'm still a virgin. But if you see it more freely, no I'm not"

But ya... I personally don't see oral, or toys as losing your virginity... To me that's just petting (I don't even know if petting is an English term or not ^^;; But ya... haha Germans would understand XD cause it's not meant as like... petting an animal XD)
So when it comes to me, I see losing your virginity as needing penetration... So with lesbians finger penetration....
Although I do have to admit one can have amazing sex without... *nods*

Oh, my doctor didn't really bat an eye. He was just like "okay" and asked for a quick rundown on what I'd done so he could figure out what tests, if any, I needed. =O I think he was a little taken aback, but overall he was really cool.

I bet you were helllla cute all embarrassed and such! Hahaha *hugs* Mika being squirmy about her sexual experience is adorable.

I personally see oral as more intimate than manual, probably because of my own reservations or something. That's why I don't view penetration as central to virginity. The other thing is that some lesbians (and girls of other sexualities, but that seems rarer) are absolutely against penetration on themselves. They just don't want it. And again, I think it's silly if they're really sexually active and called virgins just because they've never had anything stuck in them.