Welcome to Gaia! ::

Human nature is often an excuse given by the weak-minded to give their positions almost automatic justification without examining the social, psychological and other factors that might have led to the current condition or state of mind.



Correct! Even making the claim that warfare is inevitable because of human nature would be false; the reason is simply because all viewpoints, and ideas of what society ought to do (or what is right or wrong) is ultimately subjective and therefore nonexistent, so technically no view is above or below any other, thus making it difficult for groups to come to a consensus because there is no evidence to point that any one viewpoint, lifestyle or suggestion is "superior". Because of this, conflict is inevitable - not merely because it is "human nature", per se.

Christians, if they took their stories and holy book literally, should be communal and live under a form of theocracy or social authoritarianism. The dark ages can help give us an idea of what a christian society would look like.

Socialism, liberalism and Marxism are non-theistic and irreligious at their fundamental levels. (aside from those who adhere to the principles of liberalism / libertarianism and Marxism in a dogmatic, religious way razz ). There have been attempts to reconcile Christianity with modern ideas, and in the US at least there have been some strong christian socialist movements in the past.



The major issue here is that perfection is a nonexistent concept. My conception of a perfect world is probably vastly different from yours, which is probably different to many other people's ideas of such. One could even claim that our current society is perfect. Perfection is used merely to refer to an "ideal world relative to my/these fundamental values/objectives...", and really has no meaning, just as "human nature" has little relevance.



Attempting to prove something such as communism being an ideal system by quoting a religious text would probably turn you into a laughing stock, and I'd probably take what you say less seriously, no offense.



I just had to say I "lol'd" at that, no offense of course and with all due respect.

I would most definitely not support you if you made such a thread. Christianity is, like the other monotheist religions, a cancer to modern society ... perhaps a worse one than capitalism. Some of the biggest Anti-socialists and Anti-Communist groups in the United States oppose them based on so-called "christian" values. Christianity, and the monotheist religions in particular, are little more than an archaic collection of stories and myths which require faith - and thus a presupposition - to believe in. Assuming things are true promotes a degenerate mindset of anti-intellectualism, and only helps perpetuate the amount of ignorance in modern society.

A society of intellectuals - individualistic, rational thinkers is required to combat the propaganda and ignorance surrounding other concepts and ideas such as socialism, which have been cast away as being "immoral". We do not need people who assume things, or jump to conclusions if there are no clear and immediate answers. Religion and absolutism is the recourse for the weak-minded.

Also...as you know xion I'm no supporter of religion, either, though I agree that the general ideal of Jesus was in sync with communist ideals (help eachother, help the poor, love your neighbor, treat people the way you want to do...)

I personally think that Christianity, along with Islam, is currently a bigger problem in the world than most parts of capitalism. In a socialist society I aim for, there would not be much room for such people - and in a pure communist society, Marx envisioned one in which people were rational agents. If people believe in one thing based on faith; if they just assume something to be true, it's little wonder they are likely to simply believe what they are told when it comes to government or societal organization. If you want Americans to break free from the ignorance and propaganda surrounding communism, Marxism and other "taboos" in our culture, then you should be encouraging rational thought, logical reasoning and a philosophy focused more on intellectual advancement to encourage people to learn and research things (such as communism) for themselves, and to understand the arguments for and against a position. If people have a black and white absolutist viewpoint, and believe in concepts such as absolute right and wrong, they are more likely to pass off any ideas that sound wrong to them (such as socialism) without examining them in a less biased, objective fashion.


I'm not even sure I understand what that is supposed to mean ...


I'll agree with you there, but the fact is most socialist thinkers, and Karl Marx himself was strictly anti-religious. The fundamentals for these societies are based on rationalism and an attempt to create a more rational organization of society; not to create a christian "paradise". I suggest you take a look at the first socialist ideas from Saint Simon, who was the first person to coin the term "socialism".


Yes, since all life on this planet evolved from a single microorganism, that is one way to look at it. But your justification seems somewhat dogmatic; people are likely to pass it by. It would be better if you gave a more logical reason for why we should take care of society; such as we are all interconnected, and because we are social creatures, ensuring society is better off helps you be better off as well.


Again, I don't even think I understand exactly what you mean by saying communism is the "truth" for governments ... are you implying that you believe that it is an absolute that communism is our destined, "right" form of social organization? If so, that type of thinking is dangerous and presupposes a whole lot - and again, I'd point out it's all relative. Do you at least leave open the option that there might even be a better idea or system for humanity that has yet to be devised?



As for this quote from the Bible, that does not prove that it is inherently communist. Marxian Communism is based upon materialism; a material view of the world. It simply stresses that man cannot be fulfilled by accepting concessions while ultimately being a slave to the owners of capital (what Marx called alienation of the worker), and that fulfillment comes from doing meaningful work one wants to do. All that quote proves is that Christianity is anti-materialist, and wants humans to focus on (obviously) spiritual interests. But I'd be hesitant to say it proves anything, because the Bible is full of contradictions - it can be used to support a wide variety of behavior, partly because of interpretation as well as its inconsistencies. But nevertheless, a wide range of philosophies or appeals can be used to justify many different political/economic/social systems.

iRage: Please stop giving xion a hard time. Others of us here, like myself, do not like Christianity or religion but I think most if not all of us recognize her right to her belief. She is simply trying to bring more people to communism, a noble cause.

I would like to make a separate post to Comrade Robson and to Poison, your words meant a lot more to me than you'll ever know. I did feel quite attacked and was afraid that you would all take this stance. It seems quite hypocritical to me when my liberal friends are against my religion because it's like they're only accepting of people when it's convenient for them. Thank you.