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 Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:15 pm
Basically my argument for why we should be critical of the old thinkers and old theories and advance them forward (ie for the new guild idea, the Advance bit):
How did Edison create the lightbulb?
Was it by insisting that the initial, broken prototypes were working? Did he cling religiously to the fifty-year old prototypes, insisting they were perfect but simply hadn't 'been carried out correctly'? Did he simply attempt the old prototypes of his forefathers over and over again and blindly insist it would work?
No! Thomas Edison did not simply accept the old ideas and attempt them over and over again. Had he done so, he rightly would have been considered insane.
Instead he worked to find new ways of doing this, knowing in his bones that creating a working lightbulb would revolutionize the world, change it for the better, and improve the lives of everyone.
We comrades, we advocates of Communism, have long insisted that the classical theories and prototypes of our ideologies would only have worked if they had been carried out correctly.
This may very well be so--however, to deny that the ideals of Communism must improve and evolve, and to deny that they are imperfect is the deny the chance for Communism to ever be implemented.
The ideals of Communism may be pretty as they are, and if we really choose to we can stop the ideals from growing and evolving here and now and freeze it as it once was, letting it sit on a shelf behind a glass and talk about how lovely it is. Or, we could continue to grow and evolve it, to adapt it to the world today, to advance it and to push it forward.
We must be critical of these ideals we hold so dear. We must hammer away at our beloved ideals: harshly but lovingly, so we may see every crack that will appear when the time comes for them to be tested.
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:34 pm
One cannot advance if one doesn't first learn the basics.
One could easily say Thomas Edison wouldn't have succeed if he didn't keep trying.
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:43 pm
Where did I say not to learn the basics? sweatdrop
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:00 pm
Nowhere i suppose. It seems implied however, your basically saying to move away from "old thinkers" but by discrediting them as outdated and to move away is suggesting that you shouldn't look into them. Even though the old thinkers of Communism have made it what it is today.
If you look at today modern Marxists you only have the Post-Marxists like Slavoj Zizek and lacking-theorists like "Our Lord and Savior The Infallible Chairman Bob Avakain!"
Education is important, no doubt, especially on the basics. When you fully understand something, you know how it works, you then know how to make it better
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:19 pm
I suppose I must have written it terribly for you to infer such a thing. I meant no such thing--we should not reject the old thinkers or theories but be critical of the classical and modern theories and improve them.
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:25 pm
The Bolsheviks for the most part were devout Marxists.
No addition or subtraction from his theory
and they overthrew the largest country in the world....
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Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:27 pm
Yet sadly it turned into quite the opposite of Communism and Marxism, little more than capitalism with a rare banner. Obviously being devout Marxists did little to help the fact that they created the opposite of a Communist state, one with classes and exploited workers.
Regardless, that does not mean we shouldn't be critical of our ideals. I don't imagine you think they're perfect? And we can only make them stronger by seeing where they aren't.
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:39 pm
It wasn't the fault of the Bolsheviks for what ended up happening. It was the subsequent generations diverging from what Marx taught.
Taught is a weird word.. it looks like it's spelled wrong. O_o;
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Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:35 pm
Again, why does that mean we must not be critical and evolve the ideology?
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:22 pm
Honestly Poison, I think that what Marx came up with is what works. I think that there would need to slight changes as technology and things of the like presented different problems, but for the most part I think the man was a genius. The fact that the Bolsheviks were able to do what they did following him is proof that it can work. I really don't find much in Marx's writings to be critical of, and instead I find much in our world to be critical of. The only place that I really find anything close to what you think of when you say criticism to be acceptable is when we're trying to figure how to apply Marx's writings to modern day issues that he may not have addressed, like climate change. But just because his time was different than ours doesn't mean there isn't something in his writings that could pertain to that.
It's almost as if I view the Manifesto as the Bible of communism and Marx as Jesus. WE change, IT doesn't, and we need follow it to the best of our ability to achieve success.
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:26 pm
Marx barely spoke on what life under Communism would be like, ie, how a Communist society would be formed, so surely there can be some improvement there?
I am not saying that his ideas and words no longer apply, rather, I am saying we need to be adults about this and be critical of them and evolve them, though we hold them close.
Marx was human, yes, just like your Jesus, and all human ideas are imperfect. There is no way for us to truly know if the Communist ideologies will work, let's be honest here, so it is all the more important to at least attempt to see where they can be approved.
However, if you see no problem with refusing to be critical of an idea and choosing instead to follow it blindly, there is little point arguing this with you.
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:28 pm
*improved not approved.
Don't tell a Christian that Jesus was a mere human if you don't want your head to get bashed in. I'm not gonna flip about it, but for future reference.. it'd be a good idea.
I'm not saying follow it blindly, but I do think that there's a point where it crosses over from criticism to developing a new ideology. At that point I think we've failed. I have no doubts in communism and its chances of success. Also, it's not criticism if you're discussing things that were never mentioned. So, improper wording on your part led to some confusion.
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:32 pm
Xion, Posion, im growing tiered of these quarrels.....
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Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:44 pm
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Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:40 am
All right ******** this guys. You can do whatever you want with a guild or whatever. I was going to make a thread and it was going to be mostly apologetic, but I'm sorry I can't stand Poison. I think that she's an immature little twit and if I were to meet her in person I just might bash her head into a wall. I can't be in a guild with her anymore. I would LOVE to make a new guild, really, I would, but I just can't stand being around her. Every time I see her name posting something I know I'm going to become dumber from reading it. I wasn't trying to fight with you Poison, I wasn't trying to be hostile, but even though I stopped posting in the military and maturity threads I still feel like you have been. So peace out guys, call me immature, call me whatever, I don't give a ********. I don't feel the need to be in a guild with one very vocal person who doesn't even know what they're talking about and just rambles about nothing. Have fun with your new guild.
Oh and Poison, so you can stop being confused, just because I stopped posting in those threads does not make you right. Instead it makes me fed up with your bullshit and I decide from time to time that I don't need it in my life. 4laugh
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