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 Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:43 pm
So Snaguina and I got on this topic in another thread and I thought it deserved it's of disscussion. These are the pertinent posts. Sanguina Cruenta That's what's interesting to me. That even the most minor players - from our point of view as readers of the lore rather than worshippers - are wonderfully complex. There are so many questions! - when did Odinn and Loki blend their blood? Who is Rin really - Heimdallr or Odinn? What of Nerthus? What of Odh? CalledTheRaven When and how did Freyja get to Asgard? Just were did the Norns come from? There are so many things to question and explore. whatever happened to the rest of the Vanir and who were they to begin with? So many questions. So much to learn on discover. Sanguina Cruenta Yeah, that's the one that really really gets me - who are the other Vanir, and where are they? I know! Aside from Njord and his children Frey and Freyja we know practically nothing about them. Possibly Nerthus was one, though there's really nothing but speculation on that. Presumabaly Gullveig was a Vanir since her slaying (or attempted slaying) was what set off the war between the Aesir and the Vanir. Other than that, it's a blank. There had to be more for them to be strong enough to make war against the Aesir. But in the surviving sources they aren't mentioned once before or after the war. And then there's Gullveig herself. What happened to her exactly? She's refered to as being "three times burned, and three times born" so she's apparently not killed in the traditional sense but it was enough to incur wergild. After that, she is never refered to (at least by that name) again. Some think she was, or perhaps became, Freyja. She was already in Asgard when her kin came there, after all. I've also seen it proposed that the three burnings and rebirths produced the Norns. Or maybe her heart was eaten by Loki to produce a race of Troll women. There's only so far you can go with the sources. At some point you have to start trying to piece it together with only yourself and the guidance of the Gods.
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 3:01 pm
They say - you know, they - that Nerthus is Njordh's sister-lover. I'm unsure of their basis for that one.
I'd like to know Nerthus's real name, too. "Nerthus" sounds altogether too Roman. Not that that's a bad thing in itself, just that I suspect it couldn't be her real name.
You know those lost books of the bible? I live in the vague hope that one day in the future they'll find this cache of Norse stories, written by men of the "old faith" rather than (incredibly helpful) Christian monks and scholars. I'm hoping they'll fill in all those missing gaps, contain those stories elluded to in the texts we still have. Like the one where Loki spent eight years on earth as a woman or something.
Gullveig is weird. I was always inclined to think she was Jotun-kin myself. Without any set reason why. For my own clarification - is she the same entity who sort of turned up and got the Aesir all hyped up on gold? I'm firmly against the "Gullveig is Angrboda" idea though.
And Hoenir and Lodur. I'm in the "Lodur is Loki" camp myself - It was the fact that he has a brother called Helblindi that really sold it in the end - but Hoenir intrigues me. Definitely brother of Odinn at least but I know so little about him. A swapped hostage.
So Vanaheim - we know sort of where it is in relation to other places, but I haven't the first inclination what it is like. Asgard we can speculate: halls we know it has, and a river, and a battlefield so the slain can go have fun every day. (Unless I'm mixing things up, which isn't unusual.) Do the Vanir have similar dwellings?
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:43 pm
I have done very little reading on Norse mythology. I always believed it was rather complicated.
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Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:14 pm
It kinda comes of at first as not particularly complicated (I mean, how can those big hairy barbarians in the north be complicated? Eat boar, drink ale, hit things with axe....). Loki breaks something, Thor threatens to beat the snot out of him, Loki fixes something. Repeat. Odinn sleeps with and/or kills someone. Repeat. But then when you get into it there are all these questions.
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:35 am
Sanguina Cruenta I'd like to know Nerthus's real name, too. "Nerthus" sounds altogether too Roman. Not that that's a bad thing in itself, just that I suspect it couldn't be her real name. Well that would make sense since the only source that mentions her by name is Tacitus. It wouldn't be the first time a Roman scholar decided to romanize a name. Sanguina Cruenta Gullveig is weird. I was always inclined to think she was Jotun-kin myself. Without any set reason why. For my own clarification - is she the same entity who sort of turned up and got the Aesir all hyped up on gold? I'm firmly against the "Gullveig is Angrboda" idea though. That would be her. And while being Jotun-Kin is possible, she still has to have a considerable connection to the Vanir or they wouldn't have had a right to wegild for her mistreatment. Myself, I tend to think she haas at least some connection to Freyja but I don't think they're the same person. I would also love it if a cache of ancient Norse riligious and mythological texts was found. The real problem is that most of the authentic Norse stories were probably oral traditions at the time. shadowflameguardian I have done very little reading on Norse mythology. I always believed it was rather complicated. No more so than any other ancient religion or mythology that I've studied. The hierarchy of the Egyptian Gods changed around pretty regularly depending on whose priests were in power at the time. There are some mysterious figures in Greek and various Gods of questionable origin. Or the fact the the sources are pretty clear that there are exactly 12 Olympians no one seems to be able to agree on just who they are. there are at least 15 Gods that are refered to as Olympians. None of them are as simple as they seem on the surface.
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:03 am
shadowflameguardian I have done very little reading on Norse mythology. I always believed it was rather complicated. CalledTheRaven No more so than any other ancient religion or mythology that I've studied. The hierarchy of the Egyptian Gods changed around pretty regularly depending on whose priests were in power at the time. There are some mysterious figures in Greek and various Gods of questionable origin. Or the fact the the sources are pretty clear that there are exactly 12 Olympians no one seems to be able to agree on just who they are. there are at least 15 Gods that are refered to as Olympians. None of them are as simple as they seem on the surface. I always thought of Egyptian as being more understandable. I guess it all depends on which culture you lean towards. Wouldn't it be wonderful if everything was clear cut but that is just not the case.
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:29 pm
See the Egyptian, to me at least, is another perfect example of seems simple on the surface. I'm not saying it makes sense (edit: that should say doesn't make sense), just that it gets more and more complicated as you learn more aobut it. Which God is in charge changes depending on what time period you look at and of course, they would combine various Gods at ties. Gods are combined. Which one do you prefer, Ra, Amun, Amun-Min Amon-Re, Re-Horakhty? Who was the husband of Isis, Osiris or Ra? Was Horus her husband or her son? Folks today have mostly picked a standarized Egyptian mythology to reference and I have no problem with that but from a historical perspective, it's much more complex than that.
That being said the complexities of the Egyptian Pantheon have a very differnt cause than the questions assosiated with the Norse. In Norse, we lack a great deal of information. We have a great deal of info on Egyptian, it's just sometimes contradictory. Ancient Egypt, as most people think about it, existed for about 2000 years, though not without interuptions. Nothing would stay unchanged for that long.
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:46 pm
CalledTheRaven See the Egyptian, to me at least, is another perfect example of seems simple on the surface. I'm not saying it makes sense, just that it gets more and more complicated as you learn more aobut it. Which God is in charge changes depending on what time period you look at and of course, they would combine various Gods at ties. Gods are combined. Which one do you prefer, Ra, Amun, Amun-Min Amon-Re, Re-Horakhty? Who was the husband of Isis, Osiris or Ra? Was Horus her husband or her son? Folks today have mostly picked a standarized Egyptian mythology to reference and I have no problem with that but from a historical perspective, it's much more complex than that. That being said the complexities of the Egyptian Pantheon have a very differnt cause than the questions assosiated with the Norse. In Norse, we lack a great deal of information. We have a great deal of info on Egyptian, it's just sometimes contradictory. Ancient Egypt, as most people think about it, existed for about 2000 years, though not without interuptions. Nothing would stay unchanged for that long. I guess I have a head up on that compaired to most people, I studied ancient civilizations in college. So I already had to grasp the complexities of politics and religion. However we never went over ancient Celtic or Norse information.
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:05 pm
Good to know. I've known a lot of people that don't understand (or possibly just don't consider) such things but I'm a history nut so I tend to look at the historical context. Maybe, if you ever want to check out Norse mythology and religion, you should do like that class and look at the culture and civiliztion first. It might make more sense.
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:39 pm
CalledTheRaven Good to know. I've known a lot of people that don't understand (or possibly just don't consider) such things but I'm a history nut so I tend to look at the historical context. Maybe, if you ever want to check out Norse mythology and religion, you should do like that class and look at the culture and civiliztion first. It might make more sense. Good point, I love history but usually the classes involve ancient Egyptian, Roman, Greek and Mesopotamian. Does anyone know any good books on Norse history?
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:20 pm
It may be that you're looking into "Ancient History" rather than "History". You'll want to be looking into the early and late Middle Ages. Ish.
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Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:00 pm
Generally, the earliest source we have to a related culture is Tacitus' Germanium. It's a Roman observation of Germanic culture. As to other books, I recommend most anything by H.R. Ellis Davidson.
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:24 am
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:27 am
So random post, in reference to the discussion of Nerthus' name. I think this came up in reading Essential Asatru but I'd been thinking on it anyway. Nerthus and Erda (a germanic earth goddess) have sort of the same root. The germanic word Erde, that we also derive our modern English Earth from.
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:56 am
CalledTheRaven Sanguina Cruenta Gullveig is weird. I was always inclined to think she was Jotun-kin myself. Without any set reason why. For my own clarification - is she the same entity who sort of turned up and got the Aesir all hyped up on gold? I'm firmly against the "Gullveig is Angrboda" idea though. That would be her. And while being Jotun-Kin is possible, she still has to have a considerable connection to the Vanir or they wouldn't have had a right to wegild for her mistreatment. Myself, I tend to think she haas at least some connection to Freyja but I don't think they're the same person. In Our Troth (vol I), there is a whole discussion about it under the section on Freyja. The conclusion being that she is (at the very least) a possible aspect of Freyja.
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