|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:23 pm
I'm just kind of curious about what the working difference between these definitions is.
I understand the importance of distinguishing between Athena and some smart booky thought form of Athena who matches a collective interpretation of her but isn't really her.
I get that some people probably have both guides and gods or maybe a close connection to ancestors and gods. I'm sure there's a difference in their relationship and interaction with each. I'd be curious to hear of those differences from anyone here who's comfortable explaining it.
What has me confused are people who claim they have experienced a new deity, they go on to describe the meeting, which to me sounds like a meeting with deity should and then people come in and say that person isn't working with a new deity but a thought form or some entity playing a trick on them. How can you tell? If this thought form or entity states what it wants and what it offers or provides in return is meaningful then how is this in practice different from a god?
I work with guides and varying spirits. I have on occasion worked with thought forms. I know what they are because they told me. Some of them I have long partnerships and understandings with. Two of them play messenger for divinity on very rare occasions and I did once catch a glimpse of divinity. I don't have gods, and I'm not looking for them, but I do wonder what the difference is.
This isn't to be rude to people who worship gods. I've always found the personal stories I've heard to be interesting and to really flesh out some of the Gods into beings I might like to follow, though further research so far shows I'm not well suited. It just seems to me the more I read, the fuzzier the lines between gods, spirits, guides, and even ancestors to a certain point seems to be. It makes me especially curious because I've seen several discussions get very heated not over whether or not what someone experienced was real but whether or not the being they met was a god or not.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:58 pm
I've only really seen it happen when the person describes behaviour or appearance that are really out of character for an established deity. I mean generally, it's very hard to tell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:51 am
Sanguina Cruenta I've only really seen it happen when the person describes behaviour or appearance that are really out of character for an established deity. I mean generally, it's very hard to tell. Yeah, and I understand when someone is trying to assert they've seen deity x only that deity is nothing like anything any or his/her mythos. I didn't mean to say I'd seen that here, just that I have seen it around and was wondering if there's even really a working difference between Gods and guides and ancestors and other spirits. I guess the question might be impossible to answer because you'd first have to establish what specifically a god does, which really varies a lot (same with guides and ancestors and other spirits too) depending on the nature of the relationship and the way the god requires worship. I assume, and I might be wrong, that two people can worship the same god and practice their worship in very different ways either by focusing on differing aspects of the god or focusing on different regional traditions or possibly interpreting the same rites in different manners.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:49 pm
blindfaith^_^ Sanguina Cruenta I've only really seen it happen when the person describes behaviour or appearance that are really out of character for an established deity. I mean generally, it's very hard to tell. Yeah, and I understand when someone is trying to assert they've seen deity x only that deity is nothing like anything any or his/her mythos. I didn't mean to say I'd seen that here, just that I have seen it around and was wondering if there's even really a working difference between Gods and guides and ancestors and other spirits. I guess the question might be impossible to answer because you'd first have to establish what specifically a god does, which really varies a lot (same with guides and ancestors and other spirits too) depending on the nature of the relationship and the way the god requires worship. I assume, and I might be wrong, that two people can worship the same god and practice their worship in very different ways either by focusing on differing aspects of the god or focusing on different regional traditions or possibly interpreting the same rites in different manners. For me it's not a question of what an entity does. The differences between things is really about two things: scale, and connections. You have 'large' gods and 'small' gods. Gods like the Lord and Lady of the Wica, or deities that only really rule one particular location, like a village or a wood, are 'small' gods. They may have absolute power and command over the region or group they rule, but on the scale of things they're 'small'. They may not be connected at all to a larger set of deities, or any other peoples or areas. They also have a tighter area of focus, and may have time to have closer or more personal relationships with their worshippers. 'Large gods' are deities who rule over larger areas or whole pantheons - gods who have more 'connections' to other gods, or whole countries. They aren't that much different than a 'small' god - they're just on a wider scale. Because they're spread out over a larger area and may have more people honouring them, they may not get the chance to have as close a relationship with individuals as a 'small' god. 'Small' gods run into the problem sometimes that things land outside the scope of their abilities, either in the sense of jurisdiction over an area, or that the problem is simply too widespread. For example, you could ask a 'small' god to provide peace for their particular area, but asking them for world peace would be outside their scope. But it works in reverse - whereas a 'large' god might have to consider how fufilling your requests might affect all the other gods and spirits they have connections to, a 'small' god may be more free to grant your request, since he doesn't nescessarily have the same level of 'connection' to be concerned with. Totems are archetypal spirits of particular species of animals. They're the sum of what it is to be that animal. They are not individual animal spirits, nor have they ever been a living animal - rather, they are the collective energy of those creatures. They're usually huge, rather unearthly, and I always find my encounters with them both amazing, and unnerving. As a sense of scale goes...it's sort of like 'large' gods and 'small' gods. Some animals span the globe, and as such those totems are 'larger' than the ones who are only found in specific locations. Unlike the gods, however, totems are not really concerned with doing anything other than watching over their own, and teaching the skills they possess to those who belong to them. Guides are typically the spirits of once-living, individual beings. They're pretty much like you or I, except now they exist purely on the spiritual plane. They'll have the same personality. They also tend to know their way around certain features of spiritual places, and are good for helping us move around. However, I always remember that while they're life-experienced, and may have acquired wisdom or knowledge to share, that they are not perfect, and it's like accepting advice from anyone else. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's not. Because of this, I tend to think of them more as companions along the way, rather than advisors. I think of ancestors as about the same as guides, albeit ones with stronger emotional attachments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:46 pm
Morgandria Gods like the Lord and Lady of the Wica, or deities that only really rule one particular location, like a village or a wood, are 'small' gods. They may have absolute power and command over the region or group they rule, but on the scale of things they're 'small'. They may not be connected at all to a larger set of deities, or any other peoples or areas. They also have a tighter area of focus, and may have time to have closer or more personal relationships with their worshippers. This isn't entirely related, but you've got me wondering if these 'small' gods are only tethered to places or if they can be tethered to groups of peoples like an immediate family or even an extended family. Are these gods considered large gods or does that depend on the family size? Also, I'm curious if there is a proper way to meet, introduce or otherwise acknowledge a regional god. Do all spaces have them? I've just moved about 1,200 miles from where I last lived. I had a good feel for the land before and I'm sort of trying to get a feel for where I live now. It occurs to me that if there are local gods or beings in the area, it may be polite to say hello. Quote: Guides are typically the spirits of once-living, individual beings. They're pretty much like you or I, except now they exist purely on the spiritual plane. They'll have the same personality. They also tend to know their way around certain features of spiritual places, and are good for helping us move around. However, I always remember that while they're life-experienced, and may have acquired wisdom or knowledge to share, that they are not perfect, and it's like accepting advice from anyone else. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's not. Because of this, I tend to think of them more as companions along the way, rather than advisors. I think of ancestors as about the same as guides, albeit ones with stronger emotional attachments. Morg, you always have such great succinct answers. I'm going to have to think some more about what you've said before I have something on topic to come up with, but I wanted to than you for the information now. I was wondering if you knew of any books or websites that talks in more detail about the large god small god concept or the major differences between differing spirit world beings. You've sparked my interest for more, but I'm just not sure exactly what more I'm want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:06 pm
Blindfaith: Have you read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett?
Also: your comment about gods being attached to family reminds me of the Disir. They're sort of female ancestors and also involves entities that are not. They tend to look over family lines.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:13 pm
blindfaith^_^ This isn't entirely related, but you've got me wondering if these 'small' gods are only tethered to places or if they can be tethered to groups of peoples like an immediate family or even an extended family. Are these gods considered large gods or does that depend on the family size? Also, I'm curious if there is a proper way to meet, introduce or otherwise acknowledge a regional god. Do all spaces have them? I've just moved about 1,200 miles from where I last lived. I had a good feel for the land before and I'm sort of trying to get a feel for where I live now. It occurs to me that if there are local gods or beings in the area, it may be polite to say hello. Well, it's more than likely that deities who look over certain bloodlines or families are 'small' gods, but there are sometimes exceptions, like lines of royal families. Very often they are connected to the heads of pantheons, or are reputed to be related by blood to the actual gods. The Japanese royal family comes to mind. Usually, though, these families also have strong connections to specific places, and so aren't likely to go very far from their deity's lands either. It gets complicated at times - some gods watch only over the land no matter the people there, some watch only over the people of a certain land no matter where they are, and some are tied to the land and to the people of that land - but only ON that land. If you're looking into the concept of spirits or gods who may be local to you, you're getting into the concept of the genus locii, the spirit of a particular place. Just about everywhere has one, if it hasn't been driven off or killed in some manner. It's certainly polite to introduce yourself if you can, and get to know the spirits of the place around you. blindfaith^_^ Morg, you always have such great succinct answers. I'm going to have to think some more about what you've said before I have something on topic to come up with, but I wanted to than you for the information now. I was wondering if you knew of any books or websites that talks in more detail about the large god small god concept or the major differences between differing spirit world beings. You've sparked my interest for more, but I'm just not sure exactly what more I'm want. I can't think of any books, persay. All I can think of is this site: http://www.wildspeak.com/ - Moonvoice has some great articles about animal spirits and guides. She's also a shamanist who works with the genus locii where she is in Australia. I can't remember if she has any articles up about it, but she is a good resource. I don't know if people have really written anything about the small/big god dichotomy. Basically, my rule of thumb is that if the god's attached to a feature of geography, a town or city, or a small portion of a specific nationality, chances are it's a small god. Gardner said that the Gods of the Wica were 'small' gods - and since they're really only associated with Britain, and their chosen priesthood, I tend to agree. I think that the Feri Tradition has said the same of their gods. I personally think that 'small' gods are often the ones with deep Mysteries - ones you really have to journey far to find, and even farther to really experience or understand. It's how they stay small - they aren't easily accesible, or found everywhere.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:04 am
Sang: I haven't read Small Gods by Prachett. I've only read two of his works from the discworld series but they were both quite clever.
In the case of the Disir what does looking over family lines entail? Do they offer advise, do they protect the family, or is there something else? Does the family have to acknowledge the Disir or do they do their thing regardless?
Morg: Thank you for the link and the expansion of info. I'm still going through the info there, but it looks promising.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:26 pm
blindfaith^_^ Sang: I haven't read Small Gods by Prachett. I've only read two of his works from the discworld series but they were both quite clever. In the case of the Disir what does looking over family lines entail? Do they offer advise, do they protect the family, or is there something else? Does the family have to acknowledge the Disir or do they do their thing regardless? The role of the Disir seems to be linked to guardianship or stewardship but isn't absolutely clear. The Norns are said to be Disir, so it's not limited to family stuff. Ancestors tend to be honoured generally, and the Disir can be honoured particularly at Idis-thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
