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 Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:12 pm
I have an inkling that maybe, just maybe, the Goddess I have been somewhat familiar with for the last couple years could be Danu. I had a basic knowledge of the Tuatha De Danann before I considered this, and so I knew that Tuatha De Danann meant 'People of the Goddess Danu'. I also knew that the Tuatha De Danann were viewed as a faerie race (though I think it depends who you ask. Some people say they were an actual ancestral race, others say they were deities, then some people just view them as a race of immortals in a certain sense). I never really made the connection between Her and Her people and what I was encountering.
I have a few questions regarding Danu, mainly because I've been all over the internet reading about her and the Tuatha De Danann.
1. I read that the God that is supposed to be her husband is Bile/Beli/Belenus. With Dagda it was a bit more confusing, because one source said that he was her husband/son, while another said that she was his mother/daughter. There were even some sources that associated Danu with Cernunnos. Now Bile and Cernunnos more accurately fit the bill of what I though the God I was seeing looked like, but the relationships She apparently has with Dagda better match the relationship I was feeling. Can anyone help clarify who Danu was matched with historically?
2. Anu and Danu are supposed to be one in the same, but I also saw some similarities between Danu and Don. Is it possible that Don could be another form or name of Danu?
3. When I first wondered who I was encountering, I wondered if it could be Brigit, but didn't really think so. Then I read somewhere that some people thought Danu was in some way connected to Brigit, or that Brigit was another form of Danu. It didn't make much sense to me, but does anyone know anything more about this association?
4. I've heard that Danu is thought of as a Mother Goddess, but other people say She isn't at all. I've read that She is sooooo many different things, so does anyone really know all that Danu is associated with?
I also read that there is little to no written record of Danu, so I get it if people have been making up things as they went along. I just wanted to know as much as possible, because I really think I'm on to something this time. When I think 'Is the Goddess I've been encountering all this time Danu?' I don't feel hesitation or a reluctance to approach Her.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:47 pm
Maybe reading old Irish myths would help?
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:29 pm
I have been trying to read as many as possible, and I even checked out Sacred Texts, which has some nice stuff, but it's just been so hard to find myths with Danu included. There's plenty on Tuatha De Danann though. I just keep getting 'She's so old that there aren't really any written records about Her'.
However, I did find out that Don and Danu are connected; Don is supposed to be Danu's Welsh equivalent.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:36 pm
Morg knows a lot more about the Irish gods than I do... she may be able to help. In the meantime, Irish Celtic lore.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:47 pm
Corabella 1. I read that the God that is supposed to be her husband is Bile/Beli/Belenus. With Dagda it was a bit more confusing, because one source said that he was her husband/son, while another said that she was his mother/daughter. There were even some sources that associated Danu with Cernunnos. Now Bile and Cernunnos more accurately fit the bill of what I though the God I was seeing looked like, but the relationships She apparently has with Dagda better match the relationship I was feeling. Can anyone help clarify who Danu was matched with historically? Personally my understanding of the lore is that Danu's husband is Bilé. The Dagda is her son. Cernunnos is a Gaulish Deity - while people like to try to conflate Danu with the river Danube, it's not clear that she was ever worshipped on the continent. Bilé is the Lord of Life and Death, embodied in the Crann Beatha, the Tree of Life. His roots touch both the upper and lower worlds - he joins the three realms of Land, Sea, and Sky. He is the axis on which the Three Realms align, while Danu is the ruler of the physical Land, the Middle World. He has the vertical, essentially, while she is the progenitor of the horizontal. I'm not sure how he came to be associated with Belenus, a sun/fire god. Probably through the thought process that 'similar=same', which it doesn't. Corabella 2. Anu and Danu are supposed to be one in the same, but I also saw some similarities between Danu and Don. Is it possible that Don could be another form or name of Danu? The problem a lot of scholars and irish recons have with Danu equalling Anu, is that Anu is much more ancient. Danu never really appears in the literature, and is sometimes thought to be a Victorian-era invention, along with Bilé. to make a tidy little package out of what's sometimes a very messy set of mythologies. Some recons and Irish scholars believe Anu to be the deity proper, and that there is no Danu. While I agree that Anu and Danu are spearate and different entities, I do believe that Danu exits, is a deity, and is not a fictional invention. It's possible that different Celtic-speaking nations had goddesses with similar names. But I'm personally of the opinion that similar names do not make gods or goddesses 'equivalent' to one another. Irish and Welsh mythology is very -very- different. Same with the Irish and the Gauls. Corabella 3. When I first wondered who I was encountering, I wondered if it could be Brigit, but didn't really think so. Then I read somewhere that some people thought Danu was in some way connected to Brigit, or that Brigit was another form of Danu. It didn't make much sense to me, but does anyone know anything more about this association? Bríd isn't associated with the main body of the Tuatha de Dannan. She seems to have appeared some time after the majority of them, and did not take the oaths to the people and the land of Eíre. New-age and neopagan thought, however, has mashed many 'Celtic' goddesses into each other, in the spirit of 'All Goddesses are One Goddess'. Brighid is many things, as is Danu, but they do not represent the same concepts. Corabella 4. I've heard that Danu is thought of as a Mother Goddess, but other people say She isn't at all. I've read that She is sooooo many different things, so does anyone really know all that Danu is associated with? She's thought of as a Mother goddess because of her position as the progenitor of her tribe. She is literally the mother of her people. However, she is more closely associated with being the physical embodiment of the spirit of the earth, of fertility, of prosperity, of health, and of sovereignty. She also has underworld connections - soil is flesh, stone is bone, water is blood. Some people who work with her find her quite primal, and dark. Others encounter her as more lush, green, and nurturing. Chances are she's both at the same time. Corabella I also read that there is little to no written record of Danu, so I get it if people have been making up things as they went along. I just wanted to know as much as possible, because I really think I'm on to something this time. When I think 'Is the Goddess I've been encountering all this time Danu?' I don't feel hesitation or a reluctance to approach Her. There really isn't a lot of lore to support her existence one way or the other. Those who choose to work with her are generally left with their UPG as a guideline. That may work well for some, and not for others. http://www.imbas.org/articles/danu_bile.html is a great article written on the subject; it's worth your while to read it. The entire Imbas site, while showing its' internet age (I remember when the article was newly published! OMG, how old does that make me? xp ) and being a bit tricky to navigate, is stuffed with some well-sourced articles on Irish lore.
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Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:04 pm
Sanguina Cruenta Morg knows a lot more about the Irish gods than I do... she may be able to help. In the meantime, Irish Celtic lore.Thanks Sang, I always dig more stuff to read :3 I'm actuallly enjoying sifting through stuff to learn about Danu, because it finally feels like I'm getting somewhere. Morgandria Personally my understanding of the lore is that Danu's husband is Bilé. The Dagda is her son. Cernunnos is a Gaulish Deity - while people like to try to conflate Danu with the river Danube, it's not clear that she was ever worshipped on the continent. Bilé is the Lord of Life and Death, embodied in the Crann Beatha, the Tree of Life. His roots touch both the upper and lower worlds - he joins the three realms of Land, Sea, and Sky. He is the axis on which the Three Realms align, while Danu is the ruler of the physical Land, the Middle World. He has the vertical, essentially, while she is the progenitor of the horizontal. I'm not sure how he came to be associated with Belenus, a sun/fire god. Probably through the thought process that 'similar=same', which it doesn't. Ahh, that explains why I was confused. One source I referred to considered Bile and Belenus to be one in the same, so it didn't make sense to me after that because...well...they are apparently completely different, considering one is Lord of life and death, and the other is a sun/fire god. Not site I had found illustrated the connection between Bile and Danu, either, so that helped set things straight, a lot. Morgandria The problem a lot of scholars and irish recons have with Danu equalling Anu, is that Anu is much more ancient. Danu never really appears in the literature, and is sometimes thought to be a Victorian-era invention, along with Bilé. to make a tidy little package out of what's sometimes a very messy set of mythologies. Some recons and Irish scholars believe Anu to be the deity proper, and that there is no Danu. While I agree that Anu and Danu are spearate and different entities, I do believe that Danu exits, is a deity, and is not a fictional invention. I wondered quite a bit at how it seemed like any goddess that had a name remotely similar to Danu was suddenly Danu. One of the sites that I came across linked Danu to Anu, as well as a goddess found in India, simply because they had similar names. Morgandria Bríd isn't associated with the main body of the Tuatha de Dannan. She seems to have appeared some time after the majority of them, and did not take the oaths to the people and the land of Eíre. New-age and neopagan thought, however, has mashed many 'Celtic' goddesses into each other, in the spirit of 'All Goddesses are One Goddess'. Brighid is many things, as is Danu, but they do not represent the same concepts. I kind of wondered at this to begin with. It just didn't make sense to me because the two were some completely different. I even found a site that took it a step further by saying that Danu, Brigit, and Morrighan were all the same. I don't even know what that is supposed to be about, but I thought it sounded off. Morgandria She's thought of as a Mother goddess because of her position as the progenitor of her tribe. She is literally the mother of her people. However, she is more closely associated with being the physical embodiment of the spirit of the earth, of fertility, of prosperity, of health, and of sovereignty. She also has underworld connections - soil is flesh, stone is bone, water is blood. Some people who work with her find her quite primal, and dark. Others encounter her as more lush, green, and nurturing. Chances are she's both at the same time. Ok, this seems to be the only things that a vast majority of the sites got right. It was just that by the time I got through all of the other stuff that was off, they started to list of all these things she was associated with and I wasn't sure how right most of them were. But thankfully they were correct smile Thanks for the link as well, Morg. I will be sure to read up on that page and explore the site, too. The more I find out about Danu, the more I'm beginning to suspect that this is in fact who I have been encountering. I know a lot of Irish deities are connected to the land or parts of Ireland specifically, so would it be far fetched that Danu would associate with someone outside of Ireland?
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:57 pm
I also keep seeing people attaching Beltaine and Litha to Danu. I thought Beltaine was attached to Belenus?
Also, it seems like people keep saying that Danu (Irish), Anu, Don, Danu (Hindu), etc, are all the same Goddess in a really egotistical manner. They keep making these references saying 'Oh, She's found everywhere, so she is THE Goddess'. I've found a couple of site that are...I don't know how to put it. They're all very 'peace, and light, and love, and female power' and that's all good and well but...it just feels very sugar coated and not right. I personally don't believe that all these goddesses are the same...so it's just aggravating.
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:03 pm
Corabella The more I find out about Danu, the more I'm beginning to suspect that this is in fact who I have been encountering. I know a lot of Irish deities are connected to the land or parts of Ireland specifically, so would it be far fetched that Danu would associate with someone outside of Ireland? The Irish are a closed culture. The Gods of Ireland are very closely associated to the physical land of Ireland, and don't really owe anyone outside of that land, and their people, anything at all. It isn't impossible to do this - but effectively you have to be taken into the Irish people by the Gods. Adopted, if you will. There's also the language barrier - it really does help if you speak Irish, and can read Old Irish to properly read the lore in its' original form - and the fact that people who are outside Irish culture are a) going to be missing certain understandings and connotations, and b) aren't really able to actively interact with the land of Ireland or its' people. Having Irish ancestry isn't enough. Now, I will say that I don't think it's impossible. But it's unlikely, in many ways. Tread carefully, if you proceed. Corabella I also keep seeing people attaching Beltaine and Litha to Danu. I thought Beltaine was attached to Belenus? Belenus isn't Irish. He's a Gaulish sun God. If he's associated with Beltaine on the continent, that's one thing. But it doesn't make the Irish fire festival his. I fear it's a casualty of the way people want to make everything 'Celtic' one big pantheon. And it's not. "Celtic' refers to a language grouping. There were several different Celtic nations, each speaking their own variant of Gaelic - and with their own mythologies and deities. Some deities do seem to have existed in multiple pantheons, but it's very hard to track down what may have been in antiquity, and what's a modern pagan invention. The Irish didn't celebrate what we call the minor Sabbats today. The solstices and equinoxes were astrological observations - a calendar day used to track time. The Druids were said to observe them, but they weren't celebrated, persay. Samhain is often associated with the mating of The Dagda and The Morrigan. Imbolc is a holiday associated with Bríd. Lughnassadh is both the first harvest, and the funeral games Lugh held at this time in honour of his foster mother, Tailtiu - she helped clear the land of Ireland for agriculture, and then died of exhaustion. Beltaine doesn't have as clear as an association with specific gods and goddesses, really. The holiday is a fertility festival, as well as the Irish start to summer (they only have two seasons, winter and summer), so the focus is getting the summer season off to a fruitful start, and to purify ones' self and possessions of anything lingering from the dark half of the year. Corabella Also, it seems like people keep saying that Danu (Irish), Anu, Don, Danu (Hindu), etc, are all the same Goddess in a really egotistical manner. They keep making these references saying 'Oh, She's found everywhere, so she is THE Goddess'. I've found a couple of site that are...I don't know how to put it. They're all very 'peace, and light, and love, and female power' and that's all good and well but...it just feels very sugar coated and not right. I personally don't believe that all these goddesses are the same...so it's just aggravating. There are many people who are content to have a soft polytheistic perspective on Deity. I find it contradictory, in many ways. Some people are content not to delve deeply into Deity, and are not interested in confronting the darker emotions or events that occur both within themselves, or without. It is a shallow sort of way to go through life, in my opinion - and there is absolutely nothing that says you have to agree with them. Just avoid those sources from this point forward.
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:19 pm
Morgandria The Irish are a closed culture. The Gods of Ireland are very closely associated to the physical land of Ireland, and don't really owe anyone outside of that land, and their people, anything at all. It isn't impossible to do this - but effectively you have to be taken into the Irish people by the Gods. Adopted, if you will. There's also the language barrier - it really does help if you speak Irish, and can read Old Irish to properly read the lore in its' original form - and the fact that people who are outside Irish culture are a) going to be missing certain understandings and connotations, and b) aren't really able to actively interact with the land of Ireland or its' people. Having Irish ancestry isn't enough. Now, I will say that I don't think it's impossible. But it's unlikely, in many ways. Tread carefully, if you proceed. I figured this much. But I'm going to go ahead and follow through with things. This is seriously the only deity that hasn't made me feel hesitant and the only deity that 100% fits the bill of who I've experienced. Not only that, but I'm assuming if Danu wants nothing to do with me, then that would probably mean that any other Irish entity would feel much the same. That being said, I was interested in Danu because entities that I always referred to and treated as an Irish variety of faeries (I was instructed to look into the Tuatha De Danann) have not once said, 'Hey, whoa, we have nothing to do with Irish anything'. So sort of feel like if She doesn't want anything to do with me, and therefore They don't want anything to do with me, then this entire time I've been making this up in my head, and have zero faith in anything short of something I fabricated to feel like something out there was listening. That or something has been lying to me about what it is, and I still have faith in nothing but lies, and therefore not much faith at all. As far as approaching Her or proceeding; I don't have that planned out yet. But I keep seeing many people casually say 'I talked to this God or that Goddess, and they were alright/didn't really want to talk/etc', and sometimes these were deities outside the pantheon that the person was involved with. I've never heard 'I talked to them, and they told me to get the hell away/told me they didn't give a single ******** about me/etc'. so I guess I feel like 'How bad could I seriously screw this up if I go in with the most honest intentions, speak to Her in a language that she is comfortable with (I am currently learning Irish), and make it clear that I expect nothing of Her because it's not like I'm entitled to jack squat'. I at least have to give this a shot. Morgandria I fear it's a casualty of the way people want to make everything 'Celtic' one big pantheon. And it's not. Yep. Pretty much making everything I read a manner of 'Oh gee, let me untangle all this BS so I can figure out what actually makes an ounce of sense'. Morgandria There are many people who are content to have a soft polytheistic perspective on Deity. I find it contradictory, in many ways. Some people are content not to delve deeply into Deity, and are not interested in confronting the darker emotions or events that occur both within themselves, or without. It is a shallow sort of way to go through life, in my opinion - and there is absolutely nothing that says you have to agree with them. Just avoid those sources from this point forward. Couldn't agree with you more. I'm getting sick of 'life ish allllllll rainbowz' variety paganism, because life isn't all rainbows. There are dark things, and knowing them, accepting them, and learning about them is what makes life with the occasional dark stuff livable. I don't know how people who are all about rainbows cope with 90% of the bad things that happen to them. But, naive as it seems, if it gets them through the day, whatever I guess.
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:53 pm
Corabella Not only that, but I'm assuming if Danu wants nothing to do with me, then that would probably mean that any other Irish entity would feel much the same. That being said, I was interested in Danu because entities that I always referred to and treated as an Irish variety of faeries (I was instructed to look into the Tuatha De Danann) have not once said, 'Hey, whoa, we have nothing to do with Irish anything'. So sort of feel like if She doesn't want anything to do with me, and therefore They don't want anything to do with me, then this entire time I've been making this up in my head, and have zero faith in anything short of something I fabricated to feel like something out there was listening. That or something has been lying to me about what it is, and I still have faith in nothing but lies, and therefore not much faith at all. I'm not sure what the f--ries have to do with anything. They're small spirits, and they are not a part of the Tuatha De Dannan. The Gods are a separate race - they are not f--ries. One of the things that happened down the years was to reduce stories and legends of the Irish Gods down to smaller status, to diminsh them in favour of Christianity. This is also why f--ries and nature spirits got shorter and smaller, and more twee - to reduce their power in the minds of people. So gods became f--ries...and f--ries became bugaboos or twinkly little insects. To be honest, I wouldn't take the word of a f__rie as worth anything - they do not like humanity, and have always tried to mislead and lie to them, for that reason. But that might just be me. You'll notice I also do not use the word 'f--rie' in its' full form - I do not wish to attract in any way. They're not welcome in my home. As I said, the situation with the Irish Gods isn't impossible. It is entirely possible that, for whatever reason, one of them may choose to adopt an outsider, and place them under the mantle of their people - effectively adopting them into the Irish people. The Gods often do not share their motivations with us, either, so we might not know the reason why. But it would have to be a -very- good reason, one would think. Otherwise, in asking these Gods to interact with us outside of the land of Ireland and its' people, we are asking them to effectively become oathbreakers. Adoption is really the only situation that would maintain their oaths' and admit an outsider - and it still doesn't admit them fully to what is a closed culture. So as I said - tread carefully. Do your best to gauge the situation's veracity - that it isn't a thoughtform, or some entity masquerading as another. Be aware that you may be entering an area where UPG will be your guiding force, and others will not be able to accept or believe what you have experienced.
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