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Who was Jesus? Is prophecy bogus? What is a true Christian? Are there GOOD answers? 

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Eternal Torment vs. Annihilationism vs. Universal Salvation

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:05 am


IN PROGRESS
Eternal Torment vs. Annihilationism vs. Universal Salvation

You may skip to the bottom of this post to see where I will hold my arguments.

In studying I've come across two broadly taught doctrines on what happens to those who end up in Hell. Those were Eternal Torment and Annihilationism.

One, being that people are tortured forever, the other being that the soul and spirit is completely destroyed from existence, a total extinction of ones self and their awareness.

I am on the verge of concluding that both of these are wrong for the most part. I am slowly being brought to realize that these may not actually be the case, and that many will be given a second chance. As it is commonly known, the Bible has been translated and mistranslated, and many fervently Bible studying Christians realize this, but for some things, they just completely skip over. Why is this?

Many words have been misinterpreted (which I am beginning to suspect it was done purposefully) which leads us to believe that there is literally, absolutely no hope for those who end up in Hell. It makes us sour and many of us who do not believe refrain from wishing to be with a loving, eternal, forgiving God. I am not saying we should just give up and not try to win souls because we may all end up being taken out of Hell, no, not at all.
To be lazy and not try and win denies someone the very precious gift of being of Christs chosen elect. Do you honestly want that person to miss out on one of the best experiences of their long, long life? They have one shot at this, and they should not miss it! Don't deny them such an opportunity! That is selfish and it is lazy.

But yes, back to misinterpretations. God promised to keep his Word, not our language. So that means we should study it diligently, not simply looking into the words we already know, but the ones we don't know, including the Greek and Hebrew texts. Why do so many Churches refrain to learn about this perspective, the view of Universal Salvation? I would like to think that the tradition of men is a culprit in this case. To simply refuse another doctrine whilst using the mistranslated English texts, I find it comparable to a stubborn teen trying to reason with his parents on who is wiser.


I have searched many websites, but never have I come across such a doctrine until recently, and it didn't take much to destroy my previous thoughts on other perspectives. Why is this so diminished? So hidden? Why does no one talk about it? Whenever people attempt to refute it, they don't even use their own arguments against them and go to the Greek and Hebrew to find out just what the Word says, and rather, just quote scripture that uses words like "eternal" or "everlasting" without even checking the previous translations.

It is extremely agitating to come across a person who does not want to study the Bible or attempt to understand what it means because it's "hard" or "it's been translated" or "it's okay that I'm ignorant."
Seriously. Knock that off. The Bible mentions people like you who are "willingly ignorant" and that in the last days, most of the people who followed Jesus were ignorant and/or stupid. I really love it when someone tries to learn about the Bible, rather than trying to keep a prejudice view on it, keeping themselves in their comfort zones and refraining to learn the faults of other worldviews, doctrines, morals and etcetera.

Christians can be open minded, but not to everything, and this is where I lose my patience. Many refuse to test their faith, others don't wish to learn about the world we live in and how it applies to where we are, how the Bible just comes to life through it's prophecy, the faultiness in other religions, debunked claims against Christianity, among many, many other things.

I hope you had the patience to read all of this.

Happy fourth of July, the day I ironically have ended up doing this thread; a day commonly known to Americans as when we received our freedom from bondage, just as how everyone will eventually be freed from their chains of sin. Even the ones who do not believe.

1. The Greek (and maybe a little Hebrew). Where does Hell come from?

2. Faults in Annihilationism.

3. Faults in Eternal Torment.

4. The eventual Salvation of All? Is it faulty?

5. Conclusion.


I warn you. I am not completely sure on what I believe my verdict will be.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:06 am


1. The Greek (and maybe a little Hebrew). Where does Hell come from?

In this part of the thread, I am going to show you where we get some of our interpretations that we now have in our English Bibles.

There is talk, though little of it, of the places of Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna. What are these places?

Note: Sheol is a Hebrew word, while Tartarus, Gehenna, and Hades are Greek.

Gods desire is that all men be saved. Does Hell imply that he will not get what he wants?

Sheol: The grave; the pit; the place of the dead. This is translated as Hell 31 times in the KJV, an abhorrent mistranslation.

Hades: (Direct equivalent to Sheol; Greek word for Sheol)

Tartarus: A place of spiritual darkness, where fallen angels are confined until the final judgement in the Lake of Fire.

Gehenna: Where the Israelites sacrificed their children to Molech, burning them. God hated it. For this to become a place of eternal torment makes little sense, especially being that God said such a thing "never even entered his mind." Jeremiah 32:35. Even the Jews themselves did not see this as a place of everlasting torture. It's known more as a place of shame, disgust, and of a filthy past. A heap. It was actually commonplace to dump the dead bodies of executed criminals here to burn (so they would not stench during decay). Even today, Gehenna does not mean endless punishment to the Jewish people, so why should it be any different to us? Who are we to determine where the origin of a word comes from?
User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.
Seems a little creepy, doesn't it?

Now that we have those down, let's look at Hell. Where does the name Hell come from? What is Hell?
It surely cannot be all of these places at once. That would be a bit contradictory.

The word 'Hell' comes from the (Greek?) goddess of the underworld, Hele. It turns out, this word itself isn't entirely Biblical.

The only occurance of the Greek word Tartarus/Tartaroo.
2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Is your great great grandfather a sinning angel?
I would think not.

What about torment? What does exactly is the Greek behind torment mentioned in the Bible?
Revelation 20:10
And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented (basanos, touchstone) day and night forever and ever.

Touchstone.. What is it? It is commonly used for testing the purity of gold. You scratch the gold against this stone, leaving a streak, and apply acid to it to reveal how valuable it is.
Why fire? What does fire do?
Fire has the uncanny ability to make things simple. It does not destroy and annihilate. It simplifies. Jesus said we must become as little children. Simple. It has the ability to purge impurities from our metals, and it brings pain to our flesh. God himself has manifested as fire on multiple occasions in front of people. Fire is beautiful, fire gives life, but fire can also take it away.
What are our stars?
They are fire.
What is our sun?
It is fire.
Fire purges our meat from disease and parasites and makes it taste better.
When we look at people through heat vision, what do we see?
Ourselves. Our warmth. We are slowly burning, boiling. Too much heat, we die. Too little, we die.
Our flesh is fearful to flame, one of the very things God represents himself as.
No, not every little smoldering coal is God, but God is more akin to fire than many of us have recognized. Beautiful, mesmerizing, powerful, life fueling and life taking. Pure with the given ability to purify. Fire fills us with awe; it is extremely fitting that our God has manifested himself as such.
(Note: I am not saying God is fire and fire is God. That is just absurd.)

So, so, SO many of our modern English translations are corrupt.


Let's learn more about torment and forever as the Bible mentions.


Firstly, let's learn about what the Bible says about forever.

The word "ever" in this verse is pantote which means always.

1 Thesselonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Why do I bring this up? Well, people attempt to refute Universalism with eternal life being paralleled to Eternal damnation, being they are both described as eternal in the English Bible.

Let's elaborate.

Some of the words in the Greek are the same in relation to eternity- but let's look at how they are used.

"And this is eternal (aionian) life (zoen), that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." (John 17:3)

Aion

Aionian

Zoen



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:10 am


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:11 am


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:20 am


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:22 am


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:27 am


"Universal Salvation" plain ignores the second death. That is one of the defining differences between the first resurrection and the second resurrection: if you take part in the first resurrection, you avoid the second death completely and reign alongside Christ for 1000 years; if you take part in the second resurrection that occurs after the 1000 years, and your name isn't written in the book of life, you will be thrown into the lake of fire and will experience the second death.

There are no resurrections prophesied to occur after the second resurrection because there is no death on the New Earth (and you have to die to be resurrected). The millenial reign has already taken place, so has the great white throne judgment after that; all the resurrections that are prophesied to happen, will have happened by then. No one will be resurrected out of the lake of fire, that place is final and contains people who have no desire to obey or repent of sin. No amount of pain or threatening is enough to make them desire the things of God and be in submission to God; even in Revelation 9:20 & 16:9-11, people are refusing to repent while still alive and going through God's wrath. Reading Revelation 20-22, all three chapters in one shot, explains many of these details clearly. Universal Salvation is not really a contender.
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