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 Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:26 pm
Okay guys, here is the deal, a guild member wanted to have a debate here in this guild and this is for whoever wants to join in. I can't say that I'll have all of the answers for the LDS side so I am going to be the moderator instead. I'll list the topics and you talk about it.
I only have one rule. Just respect each others point of view, no arguing or belittling each other. If things start going south, I will shut this topic down. Got it? Good.
Topic 1: Jesus, and how he plays a role in your religion.
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Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:42 pm
Ok, I'll give this a shot, though I might slaughter this. If I do, someone else please correct me. ( biggrin )
In the LDS religion,there are three members of the godhead, Heavenly Father, (capital G God) Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Each are seperate beings, with their own purposes.
I'll go ahead and start at the beginning of what I know, In the Pre-Existance, Heavenly Father created a plan, to give his spririt children (us) a chance to become like him. Jesus then presented this plan, and offered to serve as a Savior.
Christ then instructed the prophets and taught them while he was still a spirit, without a body, and taught them to prepare for the day when he would come to redeem those who would change and leave their sins behind, and take up his name.
He was born, and ministered in his Earth-Life , and at the Garden, he performed the Atonement, where he paid for the sins of everyone, to give them a chance to repent, even if he knew that they wouldn't take it. he experienced all of our pains, and sufferings there, and the atonement also provides a way for us to be strengthened and uplifted, when we cannot carry on on our own.
He died, and while he was dead, he went to the Spirit world, and taught those in Spirit Paradise to go over to spirit prizon, and begin teaching those who had never had a chance to hear the gospel. This allows for these spirits to choose, and gives them the same chances as everyone here on this life.
In three days, he returned, breaking the bands of death, and becoming the first to be resurrected. He taught his desciples on a couple of occasions, and then he left.
The Holy Ghost, still a spirit, and not flesh and Blood like the Father and the Son, guided the saints for the most part from this point, but in time, the Apostasy occured, and in time the truth was lost.
In 1820, christ and the Father both appeared to the prophet Joseph Smith, and Joseph was led to organize the Lord's church again, the same church that had been built in the beginning, after (or around, I'm not sure, I haven't studied that as well) his death. He continues, with the Holy Ghost, to guide modern prophets in the administering of Church affairs, and will, in time, come again, this time in his glory. -That's a quick summary. Anyway.
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Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:53 pm
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:07 am
Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) is an honored Prophet and Messenger of God in Islam.
He was the Messiah sent to the Children of Israel and born of the Virgin Mary (may God be pleased with her).
He was given the Gospel to guide the Children of Israel.
Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing dead people back to life, etc.), all by the permission of God rather than of his own power.
According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means, instead, "God raised him unto Himself".
Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered a Muslim (i.e., one who submits to the will of God), as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" as commanded by God.
Islam rejects the Trinitarian Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind.
The Quran says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him.
Muslims believe that Jesus will return to earth near the Day of Judgment to restore justice and to defeat al-Masih ad-Dajjal ("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist).
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:01 pm
Does anyone else have anything that they would like to add? Or would anyone like to respond to either post?
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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:19 pm
Well, I'd definitely like to comment on one specific thing that you mentioned. In some christian churches, there is the belief that God and Jesus are the same person, and that Jesus is just God with a body. This isn't what the LDS church believes. We believe that Jesus is a separate being, in essence, our older brother. Still the son of god, physically, to fulfil his purpose of the Atonement, but also seperate.
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Posted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:00 am
I had the opportunity to speak to a southern baptist the other day- she informed me that the LDS religion is not considered christian because they do not accept the traditional idea of the trinity. To expound on what's been said already, the LDS religion testifies that God is our Heavenly Father, Jesus is his son, and that the Holy Ghost is the comforter. They are three separate beings, with the same title of "god", though at different levels. It's like the family thompson. They all have the same title of thompson (being as it's the shared last name), but obviously the father thompson has more authority than the child thompson. There are two things the LDS religion considers in regards to the Muslim faith's teachings of Jesus claiming or not claiming that he is the Christ. 1) We have the famous "I AM" quote that the Bible shows Jesus saying (if studied from it's language of origin/with the old testament usage of the same verbage-the LDS claim that this is evidence that he did in fact claim his divinity) 2)Jesus himself did say that if he came to bear witness of himself-that his witness was false. He came to glorify the Father, and not himself. He was acting under the will of the Father. He said this multiple times. So depending on how you look at it, the LDS religion agrees/disagrees with the Muslim faith. I know this last part can be a bit confusing, so i'd be happy to cite text from "Jesus the Christ" by James Talmage. The text is searchable online as well for those who are interested: Here it is if you are interested- i'ts a heavy read though :p
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:47 pm
Okay, I was waiting to see if there were going to be more responses but good job guys :3
Topic 2: Heaven and Hell
What do they look like? And how would you end up in either of the two?
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:53 pm
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:25 pm
Jester25 Okay, I was waiting to see if there were going to be more responses but good job guys :3
Topic 2: Heaven and Hell
What do they look like? And how would you end up in either of the two? Well, what they look like will be interesting to hear smile Never had that question before! I think sometimes religions butt heads over heaven/hell because they have different definitions of it smile For example a southern baptist I spoke with said she believed you go to permanent heaven or hell as soon as you die. LDS believe in something slightly similar to purgatory for the catholics- in the sense that it is a place spirits go first before going to heaven. It can kinda be thought of as a mini temporal heaven/hell though smile
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Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:28 pm
thetikignat hozergnat Jester25 Okay, I was waiting to see if there were going to be more responses but good job guys :3
Topic 2: Heaven and Hell
What do they look like? And how would you end up in either of the two? Well, what they look like will be interesting to hear smile Never had that question before! I think sometimes religions butt heads over heaven/hell because they have different definitions of it smile For example a southern baptist I spoke with said she believed you go to permanent heaven or hell as soon as you die. LDS believe in something slightly similar to purgatory for the catholics- in the sense that it is a place spirits go first before going to heaven. It can kinda be thought of as a mini temporal heaven/hell though smile
LDS have a belief in different levels/kingdoms of heaven, right? Explain the levels and what each means.
*I know the answers, this is just for others here in the debate*
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:17 am
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:47 pm
I'll try to break down the LDS version, basically, there is the "Waiting Room", the spririt world, which has Paradise and Prison. (Which could theoretically be seen as a temporal Heaven and Hell) at the final judgement, the spirits in either of these places will be given bodies, and will end up in their final "Degree" or "Kindom". There are three of these, Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial. (I may have mixed up Ter & Tel ) Each degree is better than the last. Telestial is for those who never used the atonement (never repented) Terrestrial is for those, who, werent really bad, but weren't really good either. Then there is the CelIestial, which has three degrees. If you do everything that you need to to get to the highest section of the Celestial kingdom, you (in time) will become like god, being able to create our own worlds.
There is also Outer Darkness, which is where lucifer, his servants, and the sons of purgatory will end up.
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:26 am
I was very interested in your videos. I have never had the chance to learn from somebody of your faith. I wanted to be sure I understood a few things correctly before we engaged in any discussion though if that's okay smile I'll post by video. The questions below pertain to the video on heaven (video one) (LDS PPL. you should watch it. just do it. don't be lazy smile ) 1) Did I understand correctly that you believe in multiple levels of heaven as well? Much more than three? if so, are they divided by beauty? is anybody allowed to roam any of the levels? 2) are the descriptions given by the video intended to be taken literally? For example- I believe that the first video mentions one of the levels of heaven having four rivers- and that a river/one of the rivers flows with honey. The LDS are familiar with similar descriptions in the Old Testament especially- but it was believed that descriptions like this did not literally mean that there were rivers of milk and honey, but that it meant that the promised land was fruitful and blessed smile 3) this is probably unrelated, but this question popped into my mind when the first video described occupants of heaven being able to eat as much as they desired for pleasure and not for hunger. Some religions preach something called the 7 virtues and vices. One of the vices is something called gluttony. Some religions preach that gluttony is a matter that is important because it reflects how you take care of your body. Others suggest that it is a matter of self control more than anything (like fighting the urge to watch pornography for example). Does the yrou faith have any stance on virtues/vices? 4 The first video mentioned the poor being first in heaven. Does that mean that they are literally the first to enter heaven (which begs the question- where are the others who are waiting to get in- or is it that the good die first and the not so good wait on earth?) or does it mean they get the preferred treatment? Also- does this refer to the poor in spirit or the poor in material possessions? 5 The first video mentions that in heaven, the occupants roam around in eternal bliss. They will also be with their families. Some religions can only wrap their heads around that in the sense of not having a purpouse- not being able to progress- for eternity. In a way that's a form of damnation (damnation for the LDS, for example does not have to mean the tyical fire brimstone and torture...but damnation means damning your progress- like a damn stops the progress of water). Many people on earth feel the same feeling of bordom/dissatisfaction if they are not progressing in this life. Does your faith teach that there is a different source of satisfaction? Does yoru faith teach that the type of satisfaction I describe is a type of sin? I could see why different faiths may view what I just described as an unhealthy drive for greatness. Anyways. smile 6 Also it mentions husbandly duities. What is that exactly? When I think of husbandly duities. I think of supporting a wife financially, emotionally and spiritually, but that may not be needed in the setting described by the video. 7 If I understood the video right, it said that men may have more than one beautiful wife. Does this mean that all women, even those not seen as "beautiful" in this life will be transformed into the ideal form of beauty, or that the men will become, I guess spiritually mature, and view any kind of girl as beautiful? Or are these girls not girls who have gone through earth as we know them? or a mix of the two? 8 Are women only allowed one husband in heaven? If so, why? 9 children grow up in an hour in heaven. Are they born with innocence as we know it on earth, or with wisdom? What kind of duities would a parent have towards their child? 10 it says that people in heaven will see their enemies suffering bitterly in hell. What if their enemy is somebody who isnt that bad and just had a bad misunderstanding with them? Do people in heaven derive joy from seeing their enemies suffer? (not challenging- i just sincerely dont know) 11 When it says that people who enter heaven will forget their suffering on earth, does that mean they literally forget events from their past, or that they just don't feel bad about what happened before? (if its literal, how do they know the ppl suffering are their enemies?)
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Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:41 am
ISLAMIC TEACHER
Here are my questions for the video on hell:
1 who is "eebliese"? I don't know if that's how you spell it. They mention him/her about 40 seconds into the second video
2) it says that people in hell will be the fuel of the fire. I'm assuming they burn eternally. Is this a spiritual fire that burns their spirits, or their physical bodies? If its for their physical bodies, then do they go straight to hell without loosing their bodies or do they regain it somehow after death? If they regain it, who does that, the divine power of your faith, or the devil?
3 believers who do not repent- does that mena you must have perfect repentance for EVERY sin you have ever commited no matter how small or else you are sent to hell?
4 so it says that angels will pull hell to earth. Does that mean earth becomes hell? and how does that "dash the disbelievers hopes" to be on earth?
5 it says that adam will pick 999/1000 people to go to hell. Is that right or is that just a figurative way of saying most ppl go to hell?
6 it says there are 7 gates. Does that have any connection to the 7 rings of hell (Dante)?
7 at 2:40 in video two, it mentions a ram being slaughtered that represents death. Can you give me more information on this? I'm actually quite interested in animal symbolism, even if we have to make a new thread on it smile
8 it mentions people trying to bribe Alla with gold. Is it assumed all rich people are evil?
9 The deepest pit of hell is for hypocrites of your faith, is that right? Even if they were kind in every other aspect? They are even worse than traitors, murderers, child molesters, and the like, or is it assumed that they hypocrites are all of the above on top of their false belief?
10 at about 4 minuets, I saw that the background had a black cat. Is that just for effect, or does your faith have a certain belief towards black cats?
11 the video mentions "devils". My faith only knows of one "devil". What are the origins of these other devils?
12 who is Maalik? I know it says its hells keeper, but who is he and where did he come from? Remember, I'm the typical Christian who has only been taught of one devil. You gotta be patient with my lack of knowledge ninja heart
Thanks for your time smile Remember I dont expect you to defend anything. Just clarify your views smile
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