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Young Minds: Easily Deluded or Open Minded? Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

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Starlock

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:43 am


I'm very tempted to post this in the regular forum as it will garner more attention there, but it is really more suited for an extended discussion; as it involves skepticism I figured the best place to put it was here. You'll have to forgive me that much of this thread is going to be idle hypotheses... it really should be backed with a psychology study or two as I'm sure what I'm talking about has been studied in the field, but I have pretty limited access to literature searches now that I'm out of college (sobs).

First thing to note, is that most of the Gaia Online population is of middle school to high school age. There are a few of us around here that are older and younger, but that's the dominant age demographic. Thus most of the individuals in this guild are in that age bracket. Following this...

From the perspective of adults, the minds of young people can be seen in (to simplify) two ways. They are very open to influence, and consequently can be easily deluded but also posess the quality of open mindedness. Belief in magic and the paranormal comes more easily for the young mind, in general. Why is this the case? Is it because they're more easily deluded into false beliefs? Or is it because they're open minded enough to accept other possibilities?

In short, are young people who believe in such things wishfully delusional and holding to false ideas or do they really see things more clearly than most adults can?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:27 pm


It's an interesting thing to discuss, yet there's no simple answer. I like scenarios, so I'll throw out one of those, but I hate to play the race card. Oh well. A Caucasian child walks into his first-grade class and sits beside his best friend who just happens to be African-American. The night before, the white child and his father had a "talk." The father explained that "those negroes are different from us white people." He is extremely racist, and the mother does nothing to tell him otherwise. The child, believing his father due to his position of authority and a trustworthy figure, walks into the classroom and tells his friend, "my dad says you're different and I can't be your friend anymore." This child may grow up to be just as racist as his father, because he was taught to be so at an early age. He didn't care about the color of his friend's skin until his father taught him to recognize it as a negative aspect.
So we see both positive and negative sides of a child's innocence and open-mindedness, if you want to call it that. While they cannot make important and educated decisions as experienced adults might, they can be morally innocent.
But, as for your final question, it would really depend on if one believed in those things. A skeptic would say they're wishfully delusional, while a believer would say they're more pure and clear to see things adults may miss. Personally, I think some of the those things are real, but there is a lot I don't believe in. So I suppose I could say that with some things, I believe children don't put science above feeling, because they don't know much about science yet. If they see a door open without someone visibly opening it or a breeze flowing through, they might assume that someone opened it, and they might just not be able to see them.
So there's my views. But you never stated yours, at least not obviously.

DrasBrisingr


Starlock

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:01 am


Nope, I didn't state my views obviously. I find that to be a good standard to hold to in thread creation so that nobody feels that any particular answer is 'expected' or 'more welcome' than another one.

Interesting comment on children not putting science above feeling. I think it depends, to some extent, on the child. While they're not as common, there are some pretty nerdy kids out there. It can be problematic how people enshrine science as the be-all and end-all of truth. It is no different than what religious fundamentalists do in most respects: both are making claims to absolute truth and both tend to become irate when that claim is disputed. Now, anybody who *really* studies science knows that science is NOT the be-all and end-all of truth, but at lower levels of education you don't get taught the philosophy of science nor its real limitations as a system of knowledge.

At its core, the philosophy of science is about skepticism. Skepticism is not disbeleif, as it seemed from your last post. A skeptic would not neccesarily say children are wishfully delusional; true skepticism is skepticism of all things, including science. Since much paranormal phenomena lies outside the domain of science, a proper skeptic would probably say "I don't know for sure" rather than "it doesn't exist." Skepticism is about accepting that our knowledge is falliable, scientific or otherwise, and that there are no absolute truths. Or at least that's my take on it. I'm sure there are those who would disagree. Heh.

So, then, as a skeptic, it should be apparent what my view on the subject is. I think both have validity; I often try to assess things on a case-by-case basis. Although the sciences would propose psychological explanations (and those are certainly valid and useful) such explanations do not invalidate paranormal possibilities. I prefer to measure beliefs by their consequences, not so much their truth merit (for "truth" and "correctness" of an idea is largely opinion/belief based, while consequences are visible in some sort of physical/cognitive manifestation in the "real" world).

For instance, you can have one kid who has an imaginary friend who ends up being socially maldeveloped and needs counseling as a result. Or you can have a kid who has an imaginary friend who ends up helping them understand interpersonal interactions. It's all about consequences, eh?

Yipe... that got longer than I intended. Heheh.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:33 pm


Young minds are easily deluded. Which is why it is the adults responsiblity to be very careful what they hear.

Guitarhero356


Starlock

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:08 am


Guitarhero356
Young minds are easily deluded. Which is why it is the adults responsiblity to be very careful what they hear.


Why do you beleive young minds are easily deluded?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:45 am


This is an exellent post, and it is a personal failure on my part I did not check this subforum more often. I do believe young children are more easily influenced, true, but I believe if a child is educated in aspects such as the paranormal, and is not taught it to the point of not questioning it, at extremeism, I think they will evaluate things based on personal and what they may see as good evidence either way. True, there will always be some children deluded, just as there will be deluded adults, believing what they do not because it's true, but because they want it to be that way. If you also have studied a little of the scientific community and the limitations of science, as well as the scorn for research such as parapsychology, you may find, as I have, the unspoken belief that "Science should only prove scientific things. Logic should only prove logical things." This is of course not true, but perhaps you willl find more minds closed by it than there should be.

Joshua_Ritter
Crew

Dapper Genius


Tycho Marinus

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:39 am


Joshua_Ritter
This is an exellent post, and it is a personal failure on my part I did not check this subforum more often. I do believe young children are more easily influenced, true, but I believe if a child is educated in aspects such as the paranormal, and is not taught it to the point of not questioning it, at extremeism, I think they will evaluate things based on personal and what they may see as good evidence either way. True, there will always be some children deluded, just as there will be deluded adults, believing what they do not because it's true, but because they want it to be that way. If you also have studied a little of the scientific community and the limitations of science, as well as the scorn for research such as parapsychology, you may find, as I have, the unspoken believe that "Science should only prove scientific things. Logic should only prove logical things." This is of course not true, but perhaps you willl find more minds closed by it than there should be.

I can logically and scientifically prove the validaty of certain paranormal activities...once I wake up...yawn I just got out of bed...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 10:09 am


KilledbyKarma
Joshua_Ritter
This is an exellent post, and it is a personal failure on my part I did not check this subforum more often. I do believe young children are more easily influenced, true, but I believe if a child is educated in aspects such as the paranormal, and is not taught it to the point of not questioning it, at extremeism, I think they will evaluate things based on personal and what they may see as good evidence either way. True, there will always be some children deluded, just as there will be deluded adults, believing what they do not because it's true, but because they want it to be that way. If you also have studied a little of the scientific community and the limitations of science, as well as the scorn for research such as parapsychology, you may find, as I have, the unspoken believe that "Science should only prove scientific things. Logic should only prove logical things." This is of course not true, but perhaps you willl find more minds closed by it than there should be.

I can logically and scientifically prove the validaty of certain paranormal activities...once I wake up...yawn I just got out of bed...


Well, then... you should take up the million dollar challenge put forth by Randi. Somehow I doubt that your claim is true, given that...

James Randi Foundation
The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.

Starlock


Whatchamacalit

PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:02 am


Perhaps we can say that sometimes the youth can be pursuaded by peers and media toooooooooooooo easily. I've noticed that some of the people in the guild are simply playing 'witch'. No offense to anyone but hopefully made some people think. Some people claim to be Wiccans when they were still 7 years old! This assuming that their parents are Wiccans is understandable, but if not.... well... do the math. They take magick as a game, they form covens and brag their 'magickal capabilities'. They are innocent to everything meaning they lack the vital wisdom needed for the craft and not to mention the maturity for handling it. I think, based from personal experience, children get influced by everything they see during a certain age and even if they did not want to have that habit/trait/belief, will do it because the idea has been implanted in their subconcious. (Also behaviors can be inherited through their parent's genes).
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:43 am


Question... what if these seven-year-old Wiccans have Wiccan parents? There are some, for the first time, second-generation Witches and Wiccans out there. Not all of us are just converts from another religion anymore. Also, perhaps they claim that age because they felt they have always in some respects held to the ideals of the Craft even though they were not diligently practicing? Perhaps using the term for that reason isn't appropriate...

Starlock


Whatchamacalit

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:07 pm


Starlock
Question... what if these seven-year-old Wiccans have Wiccan parents? There are some, for the first time, second-generation Witches and Wiccans out there. Not all of us are just converts from another religion anymore. Also, perhaps they claim that age because they felt they have always in some respects held to the ideals of the Craft even though they were not diligently practicing? Perhaps using the term for that reason isn't appropriate...


But i did mention that part, assuming that they HAVE Wiccan parents then it is understandable. (Please read it completely before replying) Are you sure they thought for themselves already? That they have the guts to tell their parents: "Mom, Dad I don't want to go to Church anymore because I don't believe in this religion" We're talking about minds easily influenced by media. There is Charmed, Harry Potter, Sabrina, and so much more. Just like immitating extreme sports or violence children enjoy what the television enjoys. This is the age of globalization where communication play the msot vital roles in society. If you were told that pagans are demons and their god is Satan when you were so young would you believe? To a point yes. Because you trust in teachers, parents, and other adults. Let's create a situation: A child was holding a book about magick, his parents see him, and his parents are devout Catholics. They punish him and burns the book or throws it away. There are two possiblities: One, he will never touch it again, two, he rebels and curses his parents. Read the work "Clay" by Juan Gatbonton and you will see easily deluded. But when you read "The Yellow Shawl" by Francisco Arcellana then that's innocence. Then perhaps after reading the 2 short stories, we can assume that young minds CAN be deluded when bombarded with false facts (the truth can be boring sometimes + they have very active imaginations). And open-minded when it comes to experience and teachings.
PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:34 pm


The people who the child likes and loves can easily delude their thoughts and beliefs, whereas with people that the child knows less of can only suggest ideas, as the child will keep an open mind for what strangers think about something.


Fallaryn


Ornate

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Laren

PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:28 am


Innocence grants the young fresh perspective which the old have forgotten, however they lack the experience to judge when they are being wound up. As with all things, it is a tradeoff to age.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:45 pm


There was actually a study along these lines (woot!) that I remember reading about in grad school. And, as usual, no I do not have access to the copy anymore, nor do I remember where it was published. The study ran like this:

Scientists rigged up a table with a bowl on it so that, when they activated it, the bowl would hover an inch or two off of the table. Adults and children from various backgrounds were asked to sit at the table and note any unusual occurrences; after the end of a set period of time, each person was interviewed by the sicentists. Across the board, children were more likely to report that the bowl had floated above the table. Many of the adults refused to believe it had happened even after being taken back into the room and showed by the scientists how the bowl could be made to levitate (I suspect magnetics, but the article didn't say). Some of those even became angry at the suggestion.

What this study shows is that children are more likely to notice and report the "impossible", for whatever reason - presumably it can be generalized as having a more flexible attitude toward reality. However, that also means that children can be more easily manipulated. Since they *aren't* as likely to be married to the concept of "reality", they are open to interpretations, which can be given by the unscrupulous as well as the scrupulous. If the scientists had told the children they were part of a study on psychokinetics, and that the bowl had risen because the child was unconsciously doing it themselves, and that they were going to be held for further training...well, the kids probably would have been okay with that explanation too.

As Laren said, it's a fine balance between open-mindedness and experience. A few more years honing their bullshit detector, and most kids would never buy the bullshit explanation. A few more years after that, they're just as likely to be adults who never even admit the bowl behaved strangely.

Personally, I feel that the staggering credulity I see so much of in the younger generation is a direct response to the excessively hostile attitude of the world at large toward conventionally unexplainable phenomena. It's a defense of room for possibilities, which in older generations at least had some outlet in folk customs and religion (all curse the new fuzzy "friendly" face of modern religion). So it gets a bit ridiculous at times - meh. At some point, everyone has to nail down their own relationship with so-called "reality". If we were all at the same place, even as grown-ups, it would be bloody boring.

Yvaine


Starlock

PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:59 am


Too bad you don't recall the study... it'd be an interesting read if I could get ahold of a copy. I think that in general, young or old, people just want an EXPLANATION for something they've seen. If it is plausible within their current worldview structure, they tend to buy it without much question. It makes you wonder how much truth is really worth at all, when it is so arbitrarily decided on the biases of any given individual.
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