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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:14 pm
Seriously, when the general public hears about incest, whether it be sisterxbrother, cousin/cousin, auntxnephew, the general reaction is: EEEEEEWWW!!!
((I'm not talking about ***** here, like fatherxdaughter. Children can't give legal consent.))
But truly, what's wrong with incest? Just "It's plain wrong" and "It's gross" doesn't cut a suitable explanation. Cow meat is "plain wrong" and "gross" to me, but you don't see me picketing outside your house and blackmailing you! And many countries don't see what's so "OMG WRONG" with arranged marriages either. And homosexuality? Despite a large population of homophobics (of whom I suspect 80% is actually homosexual), we're gaining more tolerance.
But incest? Noo, it's not even a major issue because mostly everyone's against it!
CousinxCousin marriage is legal in most countries, but siblingxsibling marriages aren't.
Why is is wrong? If it's because recessive genes are bought out more and "two-headed one-legged mutant demented babies" are brought out, if it's because many believe that it's inbreeding the gene pool and weakening the population, let's also outlaw marriage between Down Syndrome couples because they're more likely to produce a Down Syndrome baby. Yes. Let's also ban "weak" traits like predisposition of cancer etc.
Discuss, dammit!
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Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:08 pm
If the goal of this place is to weed out bad genetics, then we need to draw a line between what is "tolerable" and what is "bad" for the reasons you describe. It has to be concrete too, no "This woman has the genetics for causing progeria - ban her from breeding. This couple has a higher chance of passing down progeria, but they look like nice people. Let's let them get married." While we're at it, we'll have to draw a hard line between "tolerable" and "too related," considering we all share a huge chunk of DNA.
Also, this ban still acts under the assumption that only married couples have kids and all married couples have kids. Not all married couples produce children and there are more and more children born out of wedlock nowadays. If they really want the ban to work they'll have to ban the sex - but when its between two consenting adults, that's nothing but an invasion of privacy.
You'd think two consenting adults should be able to do whatever they want in private - but no, "sexual morality" has to rear its ugly head. You poke around people's bedrooms (not literally - I hope - but you get the point) and make sure they're having sex the "right" way which isn't fully supported by your religion (if anyone can cite a Bible verse saying "Only man-on-top-of-woman-missionary-style-babymaking-sex is okay", by all means, do so.) and you call that moral? I call it bullshit.
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:14 am
For some reason, every time I even look at a topic these days, my political beliefs tend to poke themselves at me again. I don't think incest is right, but that's because I was raised that way, and it's not something I can change about me, because it's deep. I mean s**t, I can joke about about it (the game the whole family can enjoy!), but I could never do it. No matter how hot my cousins are. Never.
On the other hand, once I look at it objectively, it all falls into perspective. I suppose that there's no factual basis for the anti-incest beliefs, and come on, let's be serious. Inbreeding will not be an issue in one generation. Problems are when you have nobility-level issues. I can't remember offhand, and now I'm going to do some meaningful research I've meant to do for close to a year now, but I believe that once you have narrowed the DNA pool to a small enough amount, that is when, after a few generations, problems occur. Case in point: compare possible clan sizes of Native American tribal sittings, upwards of hundreds in size, and European royalty, who could only mate with each other, at, say, a few dozen. Surely that has something to do with it, because Native Americans never had breeding issues that I am aware of, and has anyone seen Prince Charles lately?
God, it's weird talking about humans like that.
In any case, I'm going to try to get my hands on some DNA statistics, to see if there's a threshold there. But I doubt any danger can happen in a single generation. At worst, you'd just have to learn some ******** new reference connections, that's all.
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 10:41 am
Cougar Draven On the other hand, once I look at it objectively, it all falls into perspective. I suppose that there's no factual basis for the anti-incest beliefs, and come on, let's be serious. Inbreeding will not be an issue in one generation. Problems are when you have nobility-level issues. To hell with any moral complaint - if you want to be logical, a member of your family is barely different than a husband or wife - they're all part of the family tree. And if bloodline is the issue, shouldn't it only make family members closer than others? However, I need to emphasize the "one" - if we tolerate it for one, chances are it will became acceptable on a grand scale for extended periods of time, and that can't be allowed. Fact is, genetic inbreeding DOES have negative consequences, and it's not a particularly wise decision to allow it for that reason alone. Just a bad, bad idea.
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 11:29 am
Emperor Fluffzorz Cougar Draven On the other hand, once I look at it objectively, it all falls into perspective. I suppose that there's no factual basis for the anti-incest beliefs, and come on, let's be serious. Inbreeding will not be an issue in one generation. Problems are when you have nobility-level issues. To hell with any moral complaint - if you want to be logical, a member of your family is barely different than a husband or wife - they're all part of the family tree. And if bloodline is the issue, shouldn't it only make family members closer than others? However, I need to emphasize the "one" - if we tolerate it for one, chances are it will became acceptable on a grand scale for extended periods of time, and that can't be allowed. Fact is, genetic inbreeding DOES have negative consequences, and it's not a particularly wise decision to allow it for that reason alone. Just a bad, bad idea. Oh, I know, but why cousin/cousin, then? That's just as bad, if you ask me. And I was really referring to the fact that we have such a varied DNA pool already, that the likelihood of two subsequent generations inbreeding is very unlikely.
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:21 pm
Cougar Draven In any case, I'm going to try to get my hands on some DNA statistics, to see if there's a threshold there. But I doubt any danger can happen in a single generation. At worst, you'd just have to learn some ******** new reference connections, that's all. Good luck with that. I've tried Googling it and got nothing. I have a question: How closely related does one have to be in order for the act to be incest?
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:00 am
Scare Tactic Propaganda Cougar Draven In any case, I'm going to try to get my hands on some DNA statistics, to see if there's a threshold there. But I doubt any danger can happen in a single generation. At worst, you'd just have to learn some ******** new reference connections, that's all. Good luck with that. I've tried Googling it and got nothing. I have a question: How closely related does one have to be in order for the act to be incest? I think if there is any blood relation. For example, if I had sex with my step-brother, there would be no problem. However if I had sex with my half-brother, then there would be the problem since we share one parent. And I use the term "problem" lightly. This thread has me wondering. I don't see anything particularly morally wrong with incest, but I'm something of a hardcore Darwinist, so the inbreeding gets to me. I'm still working on formulating a concrete opinion on the matter, so I'll get back here eventually. However, the fact that it's hard for me to find anything particularly wrong about it probably means my opinion will end up in the "a-ok" end of the spectrum.
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 am
CleverScreenname Scare Tactic Propaganda Cougar Draven In any case, I'm going to try to get my hands on some DNA statistics, to see if there's a threshold there. But I doubt any danger can happen in a single generation. At worst, you'd just have to learn some ******** new reference connections, that's all. Good luck with that. I've tried Googling it and got nothing. I have a question: How closely related does one have to be in order for the act to be incest? I think if there is any blood relation. For example, if I had sex with my step-brother, there would be no problem. However if I had sex with my half-brother, then there would be the problem since we share one parent. And I use the term "problem" lightly. This thread has me wondering. I don't see anything particularly morally wrong with incest, but I'm something of a hardcore Darwinist, so the inbreeding gets to me. I'm still working on formulating a concrete opinion on the matter, so I'll get back here eventually. However, the fact that it's hard for me to find anything particularly wrong about it probably means my opinion will end up in the "a-ok" end of the spectrum. As I said, no moral argument, as there'sa nothing to argue, but taking it from a genetic perspective (hooray, Darwinism!), it's just a baaaaaaaad idea. Also, why is everyone on this guild a Darwinist?!
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:24 pm
Emperor Fluffzorz CleverScreenname Scare Tactic Propaganda Cougar Draven In any case, I'm going to try to get my hands on some DNA statistics, to see if there's a threshold there. But I doubt any danger can happen in a single generation. At worst, you'd just have to learn some ******** new reference connections, that's all. Good luck with that. I've tried Googling it and got nothing. I have a question: How closely related does one have to be in order for the act to be incest? I think if there is any blood relation. For example, if I had sex with my step-brother, there would be no problem. However if I had sex with my half-brother, then there would be the problem since we share one parent. And I use the term "problem" lightly. This thread has me wondering. I don't see anything particularly morally wrong with incest, but I'm something of a hardcore Darwinist, so the inbreeding gets to me. I'm still working on formulating a concrete opinion on the matter, so I'll get back here eventually. However, the fact that it's hard for me to find anything particularly wrong about it probably means my opinion will end up in the "a-ok" end of the spectrum. As I said, no moral argument, as there'sa nothing to argue, but taking it from a genetic perspective (hooray, Darwinism!), it's just a baaaaaaaad idea. Also, why is everyone on this guild a Darwinist?! Because it's an intelligent thing to be. *hides Origin of Species*
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:44 pm
CleverScreenname I think if there is any blood relation. For example, if I had sex with my step-brother, there would be no problem. However if I had sex with my half-brother, then there would be the problem since we share one parent. And I use the term "problem" lightly. Well, how closely do you need to be related by blood? Is sex with my first cousin wrong? Second cousin? Third cousin? How about my aunt? Great aunt? Great-great-aunt? Where's the line drawn and why?
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:45 pm
Cougar Draven Emperor Fluffzorz CleverScreenname Scare Tactic Propaganda Cougar Draven In any case, I'm going to try to get my hands on some DNA statistics, to see if there's a threshold there. But I doubt any danger can happen in a single generation. At worst, you'd just have to learn some ******** new reference connections, that's all. Good luck with that. I've tried Googling it and got nothing. I have a question: How closely related does one have to be in order for the act to be incest? I think if there is any blood relation. For example, if I had sex with my step-brother, there would be no problem. However if I had sex with my half-brother, then there would be the problem since we share one parent. And I use the term "problem" lightly. This thread has me wondering. I don't see anything particularly morally wrong with incest, but I'm something of a hardcore Darwinist, so the inbreeding gets to me. I'm still working on formulating a concrete opinion on the matter, so I'll get back here eventually. However, the fact that it's hard for me to find anything particularly wrong about it probably means my opinion will end up in the "a-ok" end of the spectrum. As I said, no moral argument, as there'sa nothing to argue, but taking it from a genetic perspective (hooray, Darwinism!), it's just a baaaaaaaad idea. Also, why is everyone on this guild a Darwinist?! Because it's an intelligent thing to be. *hides Origin of Species* Regardless, we've got 6 billion people on Earth. The handful of inbreeding couples won't do much.
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:39 am
I really don't have anything thing against incest...although maybe I'd feel differently if I actually had a brother or sister.
I mean, other than recessive mutations (which are not terribly common), there is only the moral issue. I would, however, STRONGLY urge sibling wanna-be-parents (actually, I urge all wanna-be-parents) to have genetic counsiling to evaluate their risk. Maybe the couple would prefer to adopt if they are at high-risk.
I actually think that married siblings would have a lower rate of divorce because they would have most likely lived large parts of their lives together. I mean, if you weren't sick of someone after growing up with them, then you probably will never. As they say, blood is thicker than water.
As for arranged marriages, I can't really say. I don't particularly like the idea of auctioning you're kid off to someone else's parents. Yeah...there'd be no divorce, but there'd probably be a lot more domestic abuse.
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:33 am
*shrugs* Not sure to be honest. INbreeding does increase the chances of very nasty mutations and such tyhough its small and grows from generation to generation.
IMO sisterxbrother relationships are more likely to cause genetic defects than cosinxcousin.
TO me I think incest to be wrong simply because there are negative consequences to such a relationship, both genetic, social and family wise. But it is complicated, who are we to say what love is bad and what love is good?
I am going with Cougar Draven on his coment on a grandscale. That should not be allowed.
That and the idea of having sex with someone who basically came from the same family as me kinda bothers me, why? Because they know how to touch my private parts. O.O
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Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:46 am
This is because the vast majority of incest is rape, in much the same way that the vast majority of heroin addicts are not productive members of society. You might as well say that it's wrong to hold a stigma against heroin addicts, since it's perfectly possible for a junkie to be a fully-functioning citizen.
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:50 pm
ReiDuck This is because the vast majority of incest is rape, in much the same way that the vast majority of heroin addicts are not productive members of society. You might as well say that it's wrong to hold a stigma against heroin addicts, since it's perfectly possible for a junkie to be a fully-functioning citizen. I don't think that's it. If people hear of a guy in a sexual relationship with his sister, they don't immediately think, "Ew! You raped your sister!" They think, "Ew! He ******** his sister! He's a sick b*****d and his sister's a whore!"
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