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My Conscience

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:45 am


You maybe thinking "What? It gives homosexuals some rights as married couples." This is not what I mean. I am a strong advocate for gay rights. The reason we have civil unions is because we want to give gays rights as married couples. The whole concept is separate but equal rights. The Brown v. Board of Education clearly stated my point "Separate but equal is inheriently unequal." To make it equal and not separate is making some sort of process of "unity". Marriage should not be a legal occurance. When two people wish to make a unity of themselves, they would apply for unity. This process would make it equal.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:56 am


It does seem a little too much like settling for less than we deserve, I'll say.

Cougar Draven



faolan


O.G. Gaian

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:48 am


I have to agree that marriage should not be a legal contract, but that's what it has been since... well, I'm a history freak, and I have no idea. Even outside of Christianity, marriage was a legal contract -- pagan Rome and Greece, ancient China... it at least dates back to the dawn of civilization.

The only thing about marriage that is new and extraordinary in recent times is that the whole notion of love has become attached to it. Sure, it makes sense to us, but our values and expectations are... well, compared to most of the rest of history, pretty bizarre. Noble families contracted marriages for their children largely for political alliances, and commoners... well, you've heard the term "common-law marriage"? A couple lives together for some certain time frame, and they're considered pretty much legally married, more or less. I don't know if this is still a valid union anywhere in the U.S., though.

But the commoners didn't have any political power to be gained or lost, so... no need to marry in the legal sense. And for those noble individuals who were in love? If they were fortunate (and inclined to) then they could marry; more often than not, that wasn't the case, though (save, perhaps, in polygamous cultures). For example, Constantius Chlorus, father of Constantine, was married to Theodora -- but Constantine's mother was his consort, Helena. She's believed to have been the daughter of an innkeeper, so a marriage with her would have had no political advantages. But they lived together for almost twenty years before he married the daughter of the Emperor and was named Caesar -- I'd call that pretty advantageous!

Anyway, what I'm driving at is that I actually think you're right, and that two persons who decide to sign a legal contract of union with one another should all be given equal legal standing, and if religious nuts are so adamant about marriage being a holy sacrament, let them have the damned word. It's only a word, after all. If a couple's legally united, then sure. Call it a unity. Hell, call it a thingamabob, as long as it recognizes that each person has equal rights -- and keep the segregational terms like "husband" and "wife" in the church's domain, too. Individuals legally united are spouses. It's in the bloody dictionary.

I'd even go a step further: civil unions (non-religious marriages) are not performed by any old schmuck, but by a justice of the peace. Or maybe Elvis. By a sort of state clerk, in a sense. And religious marriage ceremonies are performed by an ordained church official of some variety. Given the constitutional seperation of church and state we're told we have, I don't see any reason why the state should be giving its legal power to any church official, for any reason. That privilege should be revoked. I rather think that to be legally united, a couple should have to have a legal ceremony, period. If they still wish to have a religious ceremony, they can have one of those, too. But the religious ceremony should have no legal implications, just as the legal ceremony should have no religious implications.

[/rant]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:14 am


Acutally Civil Unions can be made so that Gay couples get all the same rights as married couples. It basically means you get married legally, though it doesn't have the same name. Though I suppose that's a right in and of itself, but it's one that I, personally, would be willing to overlook. New Jersey has adopted these kinds of civil unions

I don't see how marriage (or something like it) could work if it weren't a legal process. At least in the case of insurance and all that.

CleverScreenname


My Conscience

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:13 am


CleverScreenname
Acutally Civil Unions can be made so that Gay couples get all the same rights as married couples. It basically means you get married legally, though it doesn't have the same name. Though I suppose that's a right in and of itself, but it's one that I, personally, would be willing to overlook. New Jersey has adopted these kinds of civil unions

I don't see how marriage (or something like it) could work if it weren't a legal process. At least in the case of insurance and all that.

Like I stated before, separate but equal is inherently unequal.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:25 am


My Conscience
CleverScreenname
Acutally Civil Unions can be made so that Gay couples get all the same rights as married couples. It basically means you get married legally, though it doesn't have the same name. Though I suppose that's a right in and of itself, but it's one that I, personally, would be willing to overlook. New Jersey has adopted these kinds of civil unions

I don't see how marriage (or something like it) could work if it weren't a legal process. At least in the case of insurance and all that.

Like I stated before, separate but equal is inherently unequal.
Yes, I agree. However, no one is asking gay couples to drink at different water fountains or to eat at different resturaunts. It's just a matter of the name, which is yes, unequal, but as long as the same rights as heterosexual married couples is garunteed (which I know is not usually the case as of yet), then it shouldn't be a big deal. Which sounds terrible, of course. But I mean think about it, as long as you get the same rights as a hetrosexual couple, what's the big deal about having it be called a civil union instead of a marriage? If I may, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

The whole "calling it marriage" situation to me seems a little rediculous right now. It's like how people flip out if someone says "that's so gay." Don't we have bigger fish to fry? I think first we should work on getting all the same rights, and then actually calling it "marriage."

CleverScreenname


[Ernie]

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:37 pm


CleverScreenname
Acutally Civil Unions can be made so that Gay couples get all the same rights as married couples. It basically means you get married legally, though it doesn't have the same name. Though I suppose that's a right in and of itself, but it's one that I, personally, would be willing to overlook. New Jersey has adopted these kinds of civil unions

I don't see how marriage (or something like it) could work if it weren't a legal process. At least in the case of insurance and all that.


Actually, they don't. Marriage has 1,000+ federal benefits that are only granted to something that is federally recognized. Marriages and civil unions in New Jersey may have the same state rights, but the federal benefits and privileges are still denied homosexual couples. (source)

I agree with Conscience. Making something separate from straight couples--even if the only difference is the name--is unfair. Why should we make it different? Why shouldn't it be the same?

As for "that's so gay", I find that to be a very important problem. It's not all that great if wherever you go, you hear people using that word as an insult when you yourself identify as that word. Yes, there are bigger things--but that doesn't mean we should ignore the littler ones.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:27 am


[Ernie]
CleverScreenname
Acutally Civil Unions can be made so that Gay couples get all the same rights as married couples. It basically means you get married legally, though it doesn't have the same name. Though I suppose that's a right in and of itself, but it's one that I, personally, would be willing to overlook. New Jersey has adopted these kinds of civil unions

I don't see how marriage (or something like it) could work if it weren't a legal process. At least in the case of insurance and all that.


Actually, they don't. Marriage has 1,000+ federal benefits that are only granted to something that is federally recognized. Marriages and civil unions in New Jersey may have the same state rights, but the federal benefits and privileges are still denied homosexual couples. (source)

I agree with Conscience. Making something separate from straight couples--even if the only difference is the name--is unfair. Why should we make it different? Why shouldn't it be the same?

As for "that's so gay", I find that to be a very important problem. It's not all that great if wherever you go, you hear people using that word as an insult when you yourself identify as that word. Yes, there are bigger things--but that doesn't mean we should ignore the littler ones.
Really? I did not know that. Every article I read made it sound like they had all the same rights. Haha, and I even live in Jersey! Well thank you for clearing that up for me.

I acknowledged that it was unfair to have two separate names. However, I think that it's a little early to get our panties in a bunch over a name when, as we've clearly pointed out, we don't even have all the same rights. That's what I meant by "much bigger fish to fry."

I suppose what I meant by the "that's so gay" issue is that I've been around friends where someone has said "that's so gay" and then someone else says "hey, that offends me!" and it makes things uncomfortable. Granted, that person has every right to voice their opposition to the use of words that offend them by their friends. But at the same time, it's just a word. I believe that as we gain equal rights for gblt, the eventual disuse of the word "gay" as a derogatory word will follow. Obviously, it won't be perfect, there will always be people who are ignorant and bigoted. However for the time being, I personally am a little more concerned with equal rights.

I also think that if there is any effective way to do anything about using gay as a derogatory term right now, its to try and make younger kids understand that it's offensive now than to try and correct people who have been using it for years. But then again, kids will be influenced by their older siblings using the word, and may begin to use it themselves. Who knows. There don't ever seem to be any fool-proof ways to try and change things for the better.

CleverScreenname


[Ernie]

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:39 am


CleverScreenname
Really? I did not know that. Every article I read made it sound like they had all the same rights. Haha, and I even live in Jersey! Well thank you for clearing that up for me.

I acknowledged that it was unfair to have two separate names. However, I think that it's a little early to get our panties in a bunch over a name when, as we've clearly pointed out, we don't even have all the same rights. That's what I meant by "much bigger fish to fry."

I suppose what I meant by the "that's so gay" issue is that I've been around friends where someone has said "that's so gay" and then someone else says "hey, that offends me!" and it makes things uncomfortable. Granted, that person has every right to voice their opposition to the use of words that offend them by their friends. But at the same time, it's just a word. I believe that as we gain equal rights for gblt, the eventual disuse of the word "gay" as a derogatory word will follow. Obviously, it won't be perfect, there will always be people who are ignorant and bigoted. However for the time being, I personally am a little more concerned with equal rights.

I also think that if there is any effective way to do anything about using gay as a derogatory term right now, its to try and make younger kids understand that it's offensive now than to try and correct people who have been using it for years. But then again, kids will be influenced by their older siblings using the word, and may begin to use it themselves. Who knows. There don't ever seem to be any fool-proof ways to try and change things for the better.


Yeah, it usually refers to state rights. It's awesome that Jersey's giving gay couples the same state rights as straight couples, but it's still not nationally legal yet.

I understand that. There a lot of inequality issues to address with queer rights, and some are more important than others.

I think one of the ways to diminish the use of "gay" as a synonym for "stupid" is to educate people, young and old. Not just about language, obviously. But a lot of people who use it really don't understand what kind of effect it can have. Yes, it's just a word, and if I hear it I normally just blow it off. People usually get ticked if you try to correct them every single time they use it. But at the same time, it's aggravating, it's offensive. Something one would rather not hear. So it's not a huge deal, but it's annoying.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:36 am


CleverScreenname
My Conscience
Like I stated before, separate but equal is inherently unequal.
Yes, I agree. However, no one is asking gay couples to drink at different water fountains or to eat at different resturaunts. It's just a matter of the name, which is yes, unequal, but as long as the same rights as heterosexual married couples is garunteed (which I know is not usually the case as of yet), then it shouldn't be a big deal. Which sounds terrible, of course. But I mean think about it, as long as you get the same rights as a hetrosexual couple, what's the big deal about having it be called a civil union instead of a marriage? If I may, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

The whole "calling it marriage" situation to me seems a little rediculous right now. It's like how people flip out if someone says "that's so gay." Don't we have bigger fish to fry? I think first we should work on getting all the same rights, and then actually calling it "marriage."

Well said. Very well said. A name is just a word, yes, but I suppose we can't overlook the fact that words do have an inherent power and importance, if you think about it.

But just because two similar but slightly different things might have different names is not, I think, necessarily cause for alarm... I mean, my sister's name is Kim, and mine Katy -- somewhat similar, they both start with K, but different. Her name is shorter, but mine comes first if you're going alphabetically. So were our parents playing favorites in some way by giving us seperate names and still telling us we were equal?

I know the comparison sounds wacky, but really -- different names don't necessarily confer different treatment. While I do agree that there's really no good reason to call it a civil union and not a marriage, I still have to say that a different title doesn't automatically mean "seperate but equal." The central issue, I think, is whether or not a civil union is given "seperate but equal" rights as a marriage -- if the reality of it is any different.

[Ernie]
I think one of the ways to diminish the use of "gay" as a synonym for "stupid" is to educate people, young and old. Not just about language, obviously. But a lot of people who use it really don't understand what kind of effect it can have. Yes, it's just a word, and if I hear it I normally just blow it off. People usually get ticked if you try to correct them every single time they use it. But at the same time, it's aggravating, it's offensive. Something one would rather not hear. So it's not a huge deal, but it's annoying.

*sigh* I'm not cold-hearted, but I don't think that it's a problem that needs as much attention as it's given. Language changes, especially the coloquialisms like that. Of course, if we focus on it, tell everyone not to say "that's so gay!" when they think something's stupid, well... it's like telling people not to think about the elephant in the room, isn't it? It ends up being counterproductive.

And I agree about educating people, but... what does "gay" mean, after all? Coloquially, it's come to mean homosexual, we know that. But it means happy. Light of heart and spirit. You know --

I feel pretty, oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gaaay!


Like that. And queer means odd. Strange. When queer refers to homosexuality, it is a little more derogatory than simply saying "gay" -- or I suppose I should say that it was until Queer Eye came along.

But mostly, especially when it comes to terminology, I think calming down would be a good thing. Words can only hurt you as much as you let them.


chibi-faolan


Modern Antiquarian


[Ernie]

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:12 pm


chibi-faolan
*sigh* I'm not cold-hearted, but I don't think that it's a problem that needs as much attention as it's given. Language changes, especially the coloquialisms like that. Of course, if we focus on it, tell everyone not to say "that's so gay!" when they think something's stupid, well... it's like telling people not to think about the elephant in the room, isn't it? It ends up being counterproductive.

And I agree about educating people, but... what does "gay" mean, after all? Coloquially, it's come to mean homosexual, we know that. But it means happy. Light of heart and spirit. You know --

I feel pretty, oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gaaay!


Like that. And queer means odd. Strange. When queer refers to homosexuality, it is a little more derogatory than simply saying "gay" -- or I suppose I should say that it was until Queer Eye came along.

But mostly, especially when it comes to terminology, I think calming down would be a good thing. Words can only hurt you as much as you let them.


Doesn't need as much attention as it's given? It hardly gets any attention in the real world. I know that language changes, but just because of that doesn't mean we can't try to fix that. It's different than just any old colloquialism when is slams a minority group.

Queer is used all the time by LGBT. It's not derogatory anymore. "Not straight and cisgendered" has become another definition for it.

I don't see how it's counterproductive to ask people to stop using it that way. And your analogy isn't making much sense to me either. Ignoring the elephant in the room would be ignoring something very obvious and quite possibly a problem, wouldn't it? How does that correlate to asking people to stop using "gay" as a synonym for "stupid"?

Like I said, it's not a huge deal. And it's not like a I take offense every time I hear it. But it does reflect on society to an extent, and the people saying it.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:32 pm


Civil union - legal.
Marriage - religious.

I can live with that.
However, if this is to be enforced marriage should still be open to all couples to account for the religious institution and independent clergymen who don't mind a homosexual couple marrying. Here nobody would be forced to marry a couple, but those aforementioned groups wouldn't be forced to live by some other church's doctrine when they're of a different denomination or something.

Half Baked SF
Captain


Cougar Draven

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:35 pm


[Ernie]
chibi-faolan
*sigh* I'm not cold-hearted, but I don't think that it's a problem that needs as much attention as it's given. Language changes, especially the coloquialisms like that. Of course, if we focus on it, tell everyone not to say "that's so gay!" when they think something's stupid, well... it's like telling people not to think about the elephant in the room, isn't it? It ends up being counterproductive.

And I agree about educating people, but... what does "gay" mean, after all? Coloquially, it's come to mean homosexual, we know that. But it means happy. Light of heart and spirit. You know --

I feel pretty, oh so pretty
I feel pretty and witty and gaaay!


Like that. And queer means odd. Strange. When queer refers to homosexuality, it is a little more derogatory than simply saying "gay" -- or I suppose I should say that it was until Queer Eye came along.

But mostly, especially when it comes to terminology, I think calming down would be a good thing. Words can only hurt you as much as you let them.


Doesn't need as much attention as it's given? It hardly gets any attention in the real world. I know that language changes, but just because of that doesn't mean we can't try to fix that. It's different than just any old colloquialism when is slams a minority group.

Queer is used all the time by LGBT. It's not derogatory anymore. "Not straight and cisgendered" has become another definition for it.

I don't see how it's counterproductive to ask people to stop using it that way. And your analogy isn't making much sense to me either. Ignoring the elephant in the room would be ignoring something very obvious and quite possibly a problem, wouldn't it? How does that correlate to asking people to stop using "gay" as a synonym for "stupid"?

Like I said, it's not a huge deal. And it's not like a I take offense every time I hear it. But it does reflect on society to an extent, and the people saying it.


I might be wrong on this, but I can try to explain. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The "Elephant in the Room" was a term used to describe anything problematic and obvious, which was summarily ignored. The way homosexuality was treated in the early 1980s by the U.S. government is an excellent example.

And another way to word the analogy is to cite the movie Ghostbusters. In the end, Gozer says that the first thought that any of the Ghostbusters thinks will be the form that it chooses to destroy them all. Peter Venkman instructs them to not think of anything, but since that is generally impossible, Ray Stanz thinks of the most harmless thing he can: The Stay-Puft marshmallow man. Hilarity ensues.

Yet another way: DON'T THINK OF A BLUE BULL. Now tell me the first thing that comes to mind.

It's somewhat like the problem with underage drinking in the United States.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:44 pm


Cougar Draven
I might be wrong on this, but I can try to explain. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The "Elephant in the Room" was a term used to describe anything problematic and obvious, which was summarily ignored. The way homosexuality was treated in the early 1980s by the U.S. government is an excellent example.

And another way to word the analogy is to cite the movie Ghostbusters. In the end, Gozer says that the first thought that any of the Ghostbusters thinks will be the form that it chooses to destroy them all. Peter Venkman instructs them to not think of anything, but since that is generally impossible, Ray Stanz thinks of the most harmless thing he can: The Stay-Puft marshmallow man. Hilarity ensues.

Yet another way: DON'T THINK OF A BLUE BULL. Now tell me the first thing that comes to mind.

It's somewhat like the problem with underage drinking in the United States.


Yeah, that's what I thought it meant. I'm having trouble understanding how that proves her point about correcting people who use "gay" in a derogatory way.

[Ernie]


Cougar Draven

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:52 pm


[Ernie]
Cougar Draven
I might be wrong on this, but I can try to explain. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

The "Elephant in the Room" was a term used to describe anything problematic and obvious, which was summarily ignored. The way homosexuality was treated in the early 1980s by the U.S. government is an excellent example.

And another way to word the analogy is to cite the movie Ghostbusters. In the end, Gozer says that the first thought that any of the Ghostbusters thinks will be the form that it chooses to destroy them all. Peter Venkman instructs them to not think of anything, but since that is generally impossible, Ray Stanz thinks of the most harmless thing he can: The Stay-Puft marshmallow man. Hilarity ensues.

Yet another way: DON'T THINK OF A BLUE BULL. Now tell me the first thing that comes to mind.

It's somewhat like the problem with underage drinking in the United States.


Yeah, that's what I thought it meant. I'm having trouble understanding how that proves her point about correcting people who use "gay" in a derogatory way.


Because if you tell someone that doing X is wrong, it is human nature to do X as much as possible. Or maybe it's just American nature. We have a streak of anti-establishment in us.

Off-topic, but God, my head hurts. Last time I stay up until 4 after going to Necto.
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