Welcome to Gaia! ::

Reply General Debate.
Inspiring Killers Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

writercxvii

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:29 pm


I've been thinking about this alot recently, specifically since rereading 'Salem's Lot. Let's assume I'm writing a book (not particularly hard to assume), and in this book, I desribe a series of sex murders (If you check my profile, yes, I am sixteen, but if you've read half of what Socks [my best friend/editor] has read, you'd know I've thought up much worse stuff). Now let's assume that after reading this book, someone goes out and commits a series of crimes based on those murders. Am I responsible? I realize that this is like the 'Do violent video games make people violent' arguement, but this is another perspective on it.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:51 pm


The First Amendment to the United States Constitution protects printed word as well as spoken. (I think.) The idea that you could be found guilty is laughable, and I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. (I'm no safer. In the book I'm working on, I depict underage sex, murder, gang activity, and wholesale violence.)

I don't agree that producers of violence-laden materials should be held accountable for the actions of others. Such a line of thought implies that humans are inherently unintelligent, and whether or not I believe that to be so (I do), that is not among the principles upon which this nation was founded.

EDIT: I ******** love 'Salem's Lot.

Cougar Draven


writercxvii

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:55 pm


I'm not saying that I could be found guilty of anything. My question is this-Am I responsible, or would that person have committed those crimes anyway?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:57 pm


writercxvii
I'm not saying that I could be found guilty of anything. My question is this-Am I responsible, or would that person have committed those crimes anyway?


Legally, you are not responsible. Speculation has no legal merit.

Cougar Draven



faolan


O.G. Gaian

PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:45 pm


writercxvii
I'm not saying that I could be found guilty of anything. My question is this-Am I responsible, or would that person have committed those crimes anyway?

Well, ultimately, if you believe that you are responsible, that's all there is to it; you'd have to be able to step aside and recognize that your creation isn't you any more than a child is its mother, and that furthermore, even then your novel itself was not the murderer or the weapon. The hypothetical murderer made the choice himself, of his own free will, to kill.

For example, the Beatles songs Helter Skelter and Piggies were cited by the Manson family as having inspired their killings. And though I've never heard Paul comment on Helter Skelter being associated with those murders, I do remember George saying that he was appalled that Piggies, a rather sarcastic but amused take on what he saw as the general hypocracy of the middle classes, would have in any way justified in their own minds what they did. So although obviously no one blames George for those murders, he himself did regret it and felt that in some small degree he did share in some of the the moral responsibility for them.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:48 am


You are in no way responsible. If something you wrote provoked someone to go and kill people, clearly they weren't stable from the get go. It's not your problem, and there is no reason for you to feel guilty about it.

CleverScreenname


writercxvii

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:37 pm


For clarity, I wouldn't feel responsible. Now, most of the 'smart' people I've talked with agree that I wouldn't be responsible. But why would the media/society blame me?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:08 pm


Because society will look at it as if you had never written the book, then the killer would never have committed those crimes based on the book. That, and the media needs someone to blame, and sometimes, criminals just don't cut it.

That, and likely the criminal would blame it on the book.

Cougar Draven


writercxvii

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:11 pm


Cougar Draven
Because society will look at it as if you had never written the book, then the killer would never have committed those crimes based on the book. That, and the media needs someone to blame, and sometimes, criminals just don't cut it.

That, and likely the criminal would blame it on the book.

I can play Resident Evil nonstop until I start thinking everyone's a zombie-that doesn't mean that if I start acting on that belief and killing the 'zombies' that it's the fault of the video games, nor should I blame them. The media/society need to get over themselves sometimes...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:53 pm


Cougar Draven
Because society will look at it as if you had never written the book, then the killer would never have committed those crimes based on the book. That, and the media needs someone to blame, and sometimes, criminals just don't cut it.

That, and likely the criminal would blame it on the book.

Some of society would, no question -- I've talked to people who refuse to read Catcher in the Rye because it supposedly influenced Chapman's murder of John Lennon, for example -- but I really think there's just as many people who are a little more practical about it. Because let's face it... if someone's going to blame J.D. Salinger for Lennon's death, then by all rights they ought to be blaming Lennon for the Tate-LaBianca murders... *shrug*

Anyway, though. I think you're right, though -- it's the idea that if that influence hadn't been there then everything would have been different. But really, we know that the book is not responsible for the murders, it's the person -- so if the book hadn't been written, the criminal would still commit the murder, he'd just end up assigning blame elsewhere.


faolan


O.G. Gaian


writercxvii

PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:10 pm


faolan

Anyway, though. I think you're right, though -- it's the idea that if that influence hadn't been there then everything would have been different. But really, we know that the book is not responsible for the murders, it's the person -- so if the book hadn't been written, the criminal would still commit the murder, he'd just end up assigning blame elsewhere.

Okay, I might not have made this entirely clear (I do this a lot, making things seem clear to me, but not to anyone else), but I guess the question I'm trying to ask is this-is it possible to prove that none of the blame lies with the 'inspiration'.
If you're reading this, I'm begging you to read my 'zombies' thread. There is actually a serious question in there.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:49 pm


writercxvii
faolan

Anyway, though. I think you're right, though -- it's the idea that if that influence hadn't been there then everything would have been different. But really, we know that the book is not responsible for the murders, it's the person -- so if the book hadn't been written, the criminal would still commit the murder, he'd just end up assigning blame elsewhere.

Okay, I might not have made this entirely clear (I do this a lot, making things seem clear to me, but not to anyone else), but I guess the question I'm trying to ask is this-is it possible to prove that none of the blame lies with the 'inspiration'.
If you're reading this, I'm begging you to read my 'zombies' thread. There is an actualy serious question in there.

No, I'm understanding you... but after the weekend I just had, my brain is seriously fried today, so I know I'm not being as clear as I'd like. redface

Anyway, proving a negative like that is often not possible. You can prove that something does exist by producing that thing, or offering evidence of its existence, but to prove that it doesn't exist is something else entirely, especially when that thing is essentially an emotion, like guilt.

The best way I can think of to prove that the responsibility lies with the murderer and not with an "inspiration" would be to look at the two reasonably...

On the one hand is a man. Maybe he's a sick, disturbed individual to have done what he's done, but he is a man. He is capable of reason. He is capable of deciding for himself whether he sets his alarm clock for six-thirty or for seven, what he will wear, where he will go -- even if he wears a uniform and goes to work every day, he still decides to do so.

On the other hand is a book. Though there may be individuals who believe the book is sickening, disgusting, the worst sort of filth... it's not. It's only paper. And other individuals may call it masterful or brilliant... but a book can't be brilliant. It cannot reason or deduce or make any brilliant observations. It cannot react at all, in fact; it cannot learn (its information never changes according to its experiences), cannot grow. It is just an object.

If the man is inspired by the book, that means that the man associated the book with his own idea; the book, in fact, had no part in the inpirational process at all. It was completely passive.

Oy, I hope I'm making sense here... xp My concentration keeps breaking! sweatdrop

Don't worry, I'll check the zombies hopefully in a minute -- gotta change the laundry over -- but if not then tomorrow, most likely. xd


faolan


O.G. Gaian


Half Baked SF
Captain

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:45 am


No. You had no reason to believe that people would be so influenced by the book, and you did not use the book to control those killers. They were responsibile for their own actions and are therefore the only ones accountable for their actions.

BTW, I'm 16 too. I don't think anyone will hold reading something considered "mature" against you here.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:24 am


writercxvii
For clarity, I wouldn't feel responsible. Now, most of the 'smart' people I've talked with agree that I wouldn't be responsible. But why would the media/society blame me?
Probably. But you also have to remember that even with a highly unstable person, it's pretty difficult to actually influence them into killing based on a book. People think that Mark Chapman killed John Lennon because he was somehow influenced by Holden Caulfield from Catcher In The Rye, but that's actually a misconception. While it's true that Chapman identified with Holden, he actually admits that that side of him (i.e. the little voices in his head that he claimed to have) was telling him not to kill Lennon. But really, when it comes down to it, he was a disturbed individual and his actions cannot be blamed on anything other than his own psychological instability. Not like that stopped tons of people from believing that Catcher In The Rye was responsible for John Lennon's assassination.

CleverScreenname


writercxvii

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:35 am


Scare Tactic Propaganda
BTW, I'm 16 too. I don't think anyone will hold reading something considered "mature" against you here.

It isn't so much the reading of 'mature' topics. It's the evil scary things that my brain comes up with. As I stated in the first post, I've come up with some pretty scary things. And as to using the book to control people (I realize this is a bit of a tangent): what if the book was written by a sociopath with the intent of having someoenact on it? [Disclaimer-I wouldn't do this.]
Reply
General Debate.

Goto Page: 1 2 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum