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Hoodimann

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:11 pm


Okay. I'll wait for contact.

(It was never this easy for spies. They had to present codes, watch for assassins, etc. Phew!)

By the way, I'll be on tomorrow. The library's closing, so I have to go.

Is there anything specific you'd like me to look at, that you've already written?

If so, post it here.

Also, how familiar are you with form poems? Which forms do you know, and how well do you know them?

Once you've answered those, I'll know where to start.

I'll do my best, and will confer when I'm confused about anything you bring up.

Later.

Hoodi.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:34 pm


I'm 'ere! I'm 'ere!

I'd be the worst spy since I'd constantly walk around with a nuke in a suitcase if I was ever offed or found out. Take most of everyone in a general area with me to the stars.

Your question: My recent works have been deplorable and displeasing. But if you want to see them just ask.

On the subject of form poems outside my stream-of-consciousness:
Form poems. Heheheh- HA! Forms? What forms?

My knowledge and practice of formats is scare and almost nil.

Conor Olaf Barret


Hoodimann

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:38 pm


Conor Olaf Barret
I'm 'ere! I'm 'ere!

I'd be the worst spy since I'd constantly walk around with a nuke in a suitcase if I was ever offed or found out. Take most of everyone in a general area with me to the stars.

Anyway, ask my friend.


I did. Read mah edited post!

I'll get to your reply tomorrow.

If you've done some form poems, do me a favor, and post two of whichever forms you've already done.

If not, don't hastily write a few. Just let me know.

Later.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:10 pm


Conor Olaf Barret
I'm 'ere! I'm 'ere!

I'd be the worst spy since I'd constantly walk around with a nuke in a suitcase if I was ever offed or found out. Take most of everyone in a general area with me to the stars.


Robert Ludlum would've hated you. xd

Quote:
Your question: My recent works have been deplorable and displeasing. But if you want to see them just ask.


Here's the deal. I would like to see the following, to start with. (if some overlap critieria, so be it, just say so)

3-written within the past 6 months.
1-what you're least proud of, no matter its age
1-what you're most proud of, no matter its age
2- poems you've given up on, which you consider waste

Quote:
On the subject of form poems outside my stream-of-consciousness:
Form poems. Heheheh- HA! Forms? What forms?


I seeeeee. Well, I'll look at your writing for a while, and take it from there.

Quote:
My knowledge and practice of forms is scare and almost nil soon to be vast, and cherished.
stare

I don't know if you meant "scarce" or "scary", but the result's the same. xp

I won't throw you into the pool of forms headlong, though. I want to have some time to go over your works, time to breathe them, experience them, and get a better feel for why you're writing poetry. (Not the superficial reason we'd give if someone asked us...the purpose it fulfills for your spirit.)

I know that seems intangible and New Age-like. Don't flee. I'm not going to be mystical butterflies and wispy smoke floating through the forum.

"Float like a poet, and sting like syphillis!"

Yeah...that's more like it. twisted

See your poems soon.

Hoodimann


Conor Olaf Barret

PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:19 pm


they're all going to be rather nebulous i'm afraid. I used to have some I liked but somewhere along the line they were either deleted or incinerated.


1) that i'm satisfied with(but not much):



allow me to be virulence amoungst the innoculated and be stupendous in
existance and exceeding my body in your reconstructed insominac soul; blessing you with the rest that shut-eye bequeath,
sleeping gas cigarette that you have on your doorstep or at your
window in the mort of noctis- i'll wheel you to sleep with words of non-fictionary truth,
we're metaphysical only in thoughtbut this text I'm giving isn't construct- i'm a historical precipace like you're the evangelical grancestor of angels before they ground out their happiness on rocky grim shores-
when they weren't perpectual tools or consistantly indebted to happiness-

you're just grey eyed so now i wipe them to true colour so see for yourself.
whenever your ash heart tumbles down south on the mysterious flow
i'll pluck it like i've just found etheral
so much more valuable than loose change dropping heads up from sky.




2) i hate:

after the physicalists have their own ways
and all of null and useless things are explained

i'll be a scientist of unemphasized aspects/
things will cease to be things

please wear me as a ring
symbol/tower/a something
more abstract than a studied expirament

let me, the analyst and you, the enviroment
situate
and illustrate our selves

save our conversations for clairvoiances
and when there's nothing else but the bathwater between us

(a couple that are just there):

engorged or bulb-stomached
either way you weighed too much
breaking the burning bridge
for us to plumet and plumet and then
landed on the upside down summit of the valley
there's a little lie that fault is only used by witnesses
and seriously it's used by the subetours suing busineeses
trying to avoid double jeparody
that'll be a scratched line
compared to a pristine sample <******** failure
i have a suicide to succeed to
broken bottles lit burning
at my feet they say it's a hell
but it's just a petty excuse to comfort me-
i can't prepare for it no more than i've thought of it
the train depot is only a light now
halfway gone bulb is about to leave for home
to it's morose records and knock out sleep
i'll strain my chords
a little more
because i'm almost at the core-
and i'll blow it out with bare fists now
cause my hands are limp dead petty instruments
frailty lack of purpose watchin' the fireglobe
before it cancels it's brighter
than it's ever been goldrush before the drought
the tidal wave before the flood

--------------
beware:excitement and overaction cause exclamation points
above your crainiums and outlined pupils-
giving away my position
in a sniper game involving
the authorities and older overseers; a late girlfriend
'- she asked to stay in communication better
to be able to ignore me better;
dumped the akaline voodoo
of degeneracy'

------------------
trap my engineered overspecialized
a** of a donkey's hoof
in a guntower equipped
with cheese buckets
and biscuit jello for the
comfort of house and home-
(--they're repititive those damn reasonings
inadaquete and postulizing
'may they bust'

---------
and like liquid i am premade preheated
maintained at tempatures conditioned
for such a state to maintain
and my
solidification is inevitable



(two i gave up on, though the others count too):


in the comets air
(i, the expanse
she, the curvature of my universe-
negative swung to positive in heartbeats
and then overreacted into flatline)

the failed flare from her fell hair
in our old
notebook preserved forensically
was a remnant of a relation

passing from contentment to contamination-

even now

ceiling snows,
we're in common and common

and it's okay i'll see her in my future wife
she'll be splice of all the loves in my life-

a white sexless figure

sunlight illuminated the dustbowl in
the window traced room
to be as ash/gold/snow in the depths of eruptions;

when in the latest style
even fire
breaks into a river to flow away and wave out

--------------


i've been so detailed that i've lost the content
and i've been elaborating so much that it's muddled together
and i've been so minimal that i've grown too small
to tell that the broken necks
are lined up by the brush piles and
the hanging stalls are merely bathhooks

she was the days between the days
and in this the minutes were closer than seconds
now all that loose dust
made a storm
and this time
i'm gonna wear my merit badge
for getting far as i did-
and all the sickles cut down the moon
because it was a poor-a** poser
now like a doomsday anvil it's coming down
now in layers it's pouring
she looked in the mirror and anticipated
posing like venus for him
and slyly dropped her shirt and
as vents he drained enough
to drain the whole and she caught each drop
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:10 pm


Okay. How am I to recognize when something's merely spelled differently where you are: amoungst/amongst, and what look to me like spelling errors: expirament/experiment?

Makes it difficult for me to know when to ignore and when to say something. lol

I'll go through, anyway, leaving what I think is cultural, and noting what I am not sure of.

Hoodimann


Conor Olaf Barret

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:19 pm


Conor Olaf Barret
Hoodimann
Okay. How am I to recognize when something's merely spelled differently where you are: amoungst/amongst, and what look to me like spelling errors: expirament/experiment?

Makes it difficult for me to know when to ignore and when to say something. lol

I'll go through, anyway, leaving what I think is cultural, and noting what I am not sure of.


That's more than likely the best. I'm kind of a worst case in spellingland, I spell it as it hear it. It's one of those things I'm having to improve on.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:44 pm


Conor Olaf Barret
they're all going to be rather nebulous i'm afraid. I used to have some I liked but somewhere along the line they were either deleted or incinerated.


I'm going to merely give my first impressions of these, and will do more in-depth critiquing a bit later.


Quote:
1) that i'm satisfied with(but not much):

allow me to be virulence amoungst the innoculated and be stupendous in
existance and exceeding my body in your reconstructed insominac soul; blessing you with the rest that shut-eye bequeath,
sleeping gas cigarette that you have on your doorstep or at your
window in the mort of noctis- i'll wheel you to sleep with words of non-fictionary truth,
we're metaphysical only in thoughtbut this text I'm giving isn't construct- i'm a historical precipace like you're the evangelical grancestor of angels before they ground out their happiness on rocky grim shores-
when they weren't perpectual tools or consistantly indebted to happiness-

you're just grey eyed so now i wipe them to true colour so see for yourself.
whenever your ash heart tumbles down south on the mysterious flow
i'll pluck it like i've just found etheral
so much more valuable than loose change dropping heads up from sky.


You have a bold style which reaches, and reaches far. I like that. The minor technicalities (spelling) will be addressed later. You should keep in mind that many people today are lazy when they speak, so what you hear is not always going to be an accurate indicator of how something is spelled.

After all, here, people say "Scuse me," for "Excuse me,".

Quote:
2) i hate:

after the physicalists have their own ways
and all of null and useless things are explained

i'll be a scientist of unemphasized aspects/
things will cease to be things

please wear me as a ring
symbol/tower/a something
more abstract than a studied expirament

let me, the analyst and you, the enviroment
situate
and illustrate our selves

save our conversations for clairvoiances
and when there's nothing else but the bathwater between us


I'm not sure why you hate it, so explain. There may be some areas which can stand a little tightening up, but overall I don't see much wrong with it. Of course, you may just dislike the writing itself, and never mind the technical aspects. So. Tell me why you don't like it, so I can gain some insight.

Quote:
(a couple that are just there):


Okay.

Quote:
engorged or bulb-stomached
either way you weighed too much
breaking the burning bridge
for us to plumet and plumet and then
landed on the upside down summit of the valley
there's a little lie that fault is only used by witnesses
and seriously it's used by the subetours suing busineeses
trying to avoid double jeparody
that'll be a scratched line
compared to a pristine sample
----------


Very interesting. I like your style, as I've said before. Your execution can be improved, but your subject matter and your scope are fairly strong.

Hmm. I've changed my mind about how I'm going to approach working with you, Conor. At first I thought I'd go straight into forms. Then I decided no. Now, after reading these, I've reverted to wanting to try forms first. I am impressed with what I've seen so far, and look forward to working with you, Conor.

I will go over each of these poems more thoroughly, but in the meantime, we are going to begin work on the villanelle.
It's a form which requires you to repeat certain lines in a predetermined way.

I will return tomorrow to give more details. Sorry I don't have time today.
(Library terminals!) sad

Hoodimann


Hoodimann

PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:52 pm


About villanelles.

Here's the Wikipedia page for them, as it's got much more data about villanelles than I do in my head. In fact, I've learned some stuff about them I didn't know before, regarding meter. So yay!

lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villanelle


Even though there's not supposed to be a set meter, I think you'd benefit if, at first, you did try to write a couple in iambic pentameter.

There's Dylan Thomas' well-known poem, which he wrote for his ailing father.

Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how, in Thomas' poem, the repeating lines wind up together at the end for the most powerful emotional punch within the poem. This aspect of the repeating lines is not to be overlooked or underestimated.

The poem can be likened to a boxing match, where the all the stanzas leading toward the end consist of jabs. They can be hard jabs, and should be accurate ones, and all those punches really do is set up the opponent for the knockout punch, which is what your repeating lines should culmintate in, like Thomas' do.

So.

Notice which lines are repeated, and where. Also, the rhyme scheme's pretty simple. Two rhymes for the entire poem. Choose them well. lol

Here's two villanelles I wrote. The first one I wrote was this one.

The Obsessive Singularity

I tip gentle hearts, leave the seeds alone.
Flamencan moves: I'm nervous, lost my grace;
it's only you round gentle curve of bone.

Brigades of light help settle on a tone;
we strip away pretensions face to face.
I tip gentle hearts, leave the seeds alone.

Limits have those lines of planned and zoned,
only home when dropped from living race.
It's only you round gentle curve of bone.

Our pinkies dance, while clasped hands liken stone,
music of the spheres a sturdy base.
I tip gentle hearts, leave the seeds alone.

See wounded thrush? 'Twas looking for a phone;
flew full on booth, a wing results: "Displaced!"
It's only you round gentle curve of bone.

Each daily pass, your lips neglect my own;
I'm routed like a ghost who leaves no trace.
I tip gentle hearts, leave the seeds alone.
It's only you round gentle curve of bone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how mine flits around too much, regarding relevance, and although I can see what I mean by each stanza, it's probably not exactly clear to the reader. I should, and probably will, rework it some. While mine does obey the form, it's not a strong version of one, in my opinion.

I do feel as if, at the very least, I was able to increase the power of the repeating lines.

Here's one I wrote last year.

Hankering After Grass Grown High

I'm sipping greed like gimlets done in dress
ignoring what the cleaners won't get out,
with nary flick nor trace of fractiousness.

Your bobbing heads convince me: bare noblesse.
These trifling days have settled in like gout!
I'm sipping greed like gimlets done in dress.

When next your face appears I must aggress
to finish off our battles with a rout,
with nary flick nor trace of fractiousness.

Inaction threatens nigh to bring distress
though hardly can a measured thought be out.
I'm sipping greed like gimlets done in dress.

The bustle spins the mind so I see less;
but still I hold aloft my rainbow trout,
with nary flick nor trace of fractiousness.

I see you there, your petty dreams a mess.
So should I stay, reclined, and set to shout?
I'm sipping greed like gimlets done in dress,
with nary flick nor trace of fractiousness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It is, admittedly, even more abstract than my previous one, however, there's more cohesiveness to it, at least.

Note the pattern of rhyme:

aba, aba, aba, aba, aba, abaa


Also, for the first couple poems, keep it in iambic pentameter, so that you kill a few birds with one stone, me being a bloodthirsty poet and what not, and the more birds you can slaughter, the better. confused

da-DA-da-DA-da-DA-da-DA-da-DA.......

Now, there's not going to be a crisis if you have an extra syllable or two, or fall short one or two, here and there, if the line says just what you want it to say. That's not too big a deal. However, if one line has three freakin' syllables, and the next has twelve...well...no. That won't work, at first anyway. xd

(Feels I may have to try that now, just to see.)

I'll write the same number of villanelles that you write, Conor.

We can collaborate on one, too, if you want to.

Here's how it breaks down for the repeating lines. I'll use slashes to indicate nonrepeating lines.

1st
///
3rd

///
///
1st

///
///
3rd

///
///
1st

///
///
3rd

///
///
1st
3rd.

See?


So the first and third lines in the first stanza will be your closing two lines.

There should be enough data here for you to get to work, however, if you have any questions, let me know.

Feel free to post whatever progress you make, even if it's not a whole poem. Good luck.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 9:15 am


OH MY-
(so much information! EEEEEK!)
You are one of the most awesome people in my book of awesome people.
I'm getting to
work directly
on this
iambic pentameter villanelle.

But first:
Personally it seems to me that in doing forms it's much harder to converse a concept to the reader since you're working to work inside the bounds of a form- at the same time though it's a little relieving because free form often spirals out of connection to the reader into abstraction- even easier for me at least, because i'm used to either overdoing it or not doing it.
That's just me commenting by the way.
(Scamper off to work!)

Conor Olaf Barret


Hoodimann

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:22 pm


Conor Olaf Barret
OH MY-
(so much information! EEEEEK!)
You are one of the most awesome people in my book of awesome people.


I'm about to knock myself out of that position of "most awesome people", by dint of my beginning to lay the smackdown...right...about...NOW! scream

xd

In other words: I will enter into my "nitpicking" mode, whereby I point out every little ******** typo I run across, be it in your poetry or in your comments.

Here's why. Because imprecision sucks if you're going to write poetry, and until you determine to have precision be just as ingrained as the letters of the alphabet, your writing will suffer. Since you're here to directly have your writing no longer suffer so much, this is pretty much an important function for me. Onward!

Quote:
I'm getting to
work directly
on this
iambic pentameter villanelle.


Amen.

Quote:
But first:
Personally it seems to me that in doing forms it's much harder to converse a concept


But second: I believe the word you meant to use was "convey", not "converse". If you're not sure why...look them both up, damnit.

Quote:
to the reader since you're working to work inside the bounds of a form


Hmm. Not necessarily true. It may be the case when I write, but that's because I'm an a*****e. The goal is not to express yourself so obscurely that you can then say it's poetry by default, as no one can begin to make heads nor tails of what you're saying.
"Whoosh!"
(That was the sound of 98% of my ******** poetry going out the window.)

I understand that my villanelles seem really strange, so they may not be good examples for you to look at. This is why I suggest you look at several at the wikipedia sight, not getting different forms mixed up. If nothing else, enter "villanelle" into your search bar, and read some examples of modern ones. (This way you get the iambic pentameter, too.)
What I meant by killing several birds at once was this: not only would you be learning a new form, the villanelle, but you'd be practicing writing in iambic pentameter, which is important to learn.

That's the thing about free form poetry. Who's to say what's better or worse? (Well, strong readers know what's actually good and what's not, although opinions can certainly vary!) Good writers have some things in common: a desire to speak plainly and strongly with the language; the ability to write with passion, power; recognition of the language's limits.

Actually, you'll find that form poetry frees your writing, and here's why. Since you already know certain limitations regarding line length/repetition...whatever a particular form's parameters are...you are utterly free within them, to use those parameters as a background to say anything at all.

While free form may have fewer limitations, it also provides less of a foundation for you to build on.
Forms say, "Here's a foundation. Here's its shape. Only certain materials will fit. Build what you can."
Free form says, "Here's the piles of material. You shape something decisively, then build on it."

Well, until you've learned to build on something, you're hardly in a position to shape the damned foundation first! Right? lol

THAT'S why form poetry is important. It may turn your free form into the strongest poetry you ever write!

Good luck, Conor.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:40 pm


EDITED! (so make sure you reread, if you've already scanned this!)

There are a couple ground "rules" so to speak, which I'd like you to either begin to follow, or continue to follow, regarding your poetry.

1. Before you post it, read it out loud. The important thing here is NOT that you read what you think you wrote or typed...it's that you read what is ON THE SCREEN (or paper), as you've written it.
Here's why: It will reduce (not remove), typos or spelling errors. It will also show you weaknesses in your writing before you even let someone else look at it. These are both important for this reason.

I can better help you write more strongly if you are aware of how to find minor errors yourself. This allows me to focus on deeper issues in your writing, rather than telling you eighty times that it's "definitely", not "definately". xp

2. Once you've read it out loud once, fix whatever errors or weaknesses you've found. Then...oddly enough...read the whole damned thing...again! Out loud! When you've read it twice through without finding one thing you think you need to change, post it here.

3. Refer to an unabridged dictionary, online or not, for any word you're unsure of, please.
Here's why. It will keep you from using "converse" when what you mean is "convey", for one. confused
See? Amen.

By the way, another reason to read your work out loud first is that it will help you determine stronger enjambment. (enjambment being "line breaks") The pauses in poetry are important, so how you use them will affect the strength and effectiveness of your writing.

If you enjamb poorly, your poem will suffer, and greatly.

Now...I'm not referring to pauses within a line here, I'm only referring to pauses between lines. Keeping that in mind, I'd say (someone's free to correct me if I'm wrong here) that the following is a general way to approach line breaks and the different punctuation available to you.

In order of least pause to greatest pause, I'd say it went sort of like this.

Line break alone
line break with comma,
line break with semicolon;
line break with colon:
line break with period.

Line break with

space.

And so on, again, with spaces.

Things to keep in mind: a dash can be used, but I'd do some reading on the more effective uses of dashes. There are particular settings where it can be more effective, and I don't know them off the top of my head. My apologies. Also, the colon at the end of a line still has connotations of a possible list...so you may wish to use it when you've described a quality about something, and now you're going to give some examples of things which have that quality. Do you know what I mean?

Like so.

The day began with disasters:
toaster exploding;
toaster not exploding;
you not caring either way.


So. Keep that in mind, as well, when reading out loud. That will help you a great deal with line breaks. If you pause when you read it out loud, because that's the way you want it, then there had damned well better be some indication of the sort of pause you want when you post the poem, so that we, the reader, may put the pause there as well. This too, falls under "precision", Conor.
By the time we're through, whenever that may be (October, next June, whenever!), I expect surgeons to call for one of your poems when they need to make that initial cut! rolleyes

I look forward to whatever portions of whatever villanelle/s you post here, and will keep my promise to match you, poem for poem, form for form.

So!

For God's sake...have fun. I have a blast every single time I write and every single time I critique. I nitpick because there are enough weak writers in the world. We've met our quota, and have surpassed it, and I think it's time we evened out the ******** balance a bit, eh? Yes.
(It's not just so that someone can say they're a strong writer...it's so that if/when a strong writer decides they want to make a difference, that when
they begin to communicate their desire to the literate world, they aren't laughed at as less effective/important people.)


I mean, can you imagine Bill Gates typing off a memo that read like the following?

"Attenshun, staff. The shares for this quater will be sold at half the regulared rate, as a bonnus for all your hard werk. Thanx!!! Bill Gates.

confused

Later, Conor.

cool

Hoodimann


Conor Olaf Barret

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:58 pm


Call me a masochist- but I'm in love with critical people.

As you've put it so elegantly, perhaps forms are relieving in that sort of frame of thought. Truely though, I've never thought of it like that. It's always been that if it flowed and expressed as adequately. what I've sought to present- it was a success. But- lately it's been becoming more vapid to approach it that way- and way too nebulous for me to even settle a proper poem.
I think the same goes for my painting but that's a different subject; alternate forum.

(EDIT!)
Wowzers- I never thought of doing that. Reading it aloud- or even thought about line breaks in such a technical way.
Your comments have moved me- to the core! (it's gone critical) I feel energized and inspired to resolve myself to become more of a superfly poet and more superfly in general. Starting with poetry.
(I strike epic Bruce Lee pose!)

And I think that Bill Gates does his notes in 'l33t'. Or I'd like to think so.

Anyways-
I tried out that villanelle but I royally shot that iambic pentameter or regmented line length to the moon. In a bad way.
I'm just going to make another to accomplish the other two objectives.

So here's the super rough copy of my first attempt at villanelle:


so in ribbons she burst into traces of lithium
this enviroment, stoic, breeds itself
although it's a trend in this millennium

so the bed's layers was an interstellar medium
frozen insideout as she was the only one on the debt shelf
so in ribbons she burst into traces of lithium

resembling bacteria in a stifled culture crematorium
burning out in self-depreciating desires leaving dust trails
although it's a trend in this millennium

to be as slick shined as metaimaginary obsidian
though it's so degrading to be an inert rock cleft
so in ribbons she burst into traces of lithium

in a expression of a lack of reason in the atrium
she's spaced out like pages of a tome making a bookshelf
although it's a trend in this millennium

to break down like crushed up calcium-
and manage like a lifetime commercial for the self
so in ribbons she burst into traces of lithium
although it's a trend in this millennium
Reply
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