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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:00 am
Captain_Theoretical Quote: Viruses are strange because they are dead when they are not in contact with a living organism, then they are alive when they come in contact. Well, not exactly. They just go dormant when they don't have a host. Viruses can't die because they're not alive. They have to have a host to reproduce, they are like little packets of genetic material. Once they have entered a host cell, they reproduce like crazy until the cell ruptures and sends the viruses off to new cells to reproduce. Viruses can be taken apart, but they can never really 'die' per se. You can take a toaster apart so it doesn't work anymore, but you can't really kill a toaster. Oh, I get it. smile
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Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:17 pm
Dr. Kool I have to disagree with you. The babay is a little mess cells supported by the mother. It doesn't care if it dies. However, if a girl/woman is forced to give birth, it can throw her whole life off. She could run out of money, end up on teh street with her kid and maybe die there. Same goes for the kid. Some people simply can't deal with a child.
And I'm not missing the point that not everyone believes in God, but they should (okay ... that was cynical of me sweatdrop ). It's hard for me to discuss things like this, because I can't wrap my head around a life apart from God. However, for the sake of discussion, I will try.
If you don't believe that life is sacred in all its stages, then it's quite easy to make the decision in favor of yourself, to keep from ending up on the streets and what have you. But let me use a personal anecdote.
My sister is a survivor, in two senses. She survived abortion (in that my mother finally decided to keep her) and survived even after being born nearly two months early. My mom was abusing drugs and alcohol at the time she found out she was pregnant. She was living in a halfway home, trying to raise one of my brothers. When my sister was born, everything changed. She realized she had to clean herself up because she had a new life to take care of, one that couldn't be gotten rid of with just twenty dollars. And no, my mother wasn't raped, but she didn't want my sister. Not at first, and some would have argued that it was in my mom's best interest to terminate the pregnancy. But just because consequences are consequences doesn't mean that something good can't come of them. My mom's (and therefore my sister's) story had a pretty happy ending if you ask me.Dr. Kool Consequences happen, yes, however, we can make them less often and easier to deal with. People shouldn't have to deal with a child that they don't want. The kid and parents could both end up with a bad life. Dr. Kool I don't agree that abortion and birth control are wrong. I've been agruing debating that abortion is right. I don't think there's anything wrong with birth control. It's much better than abortion. So, do I not count into "all" or what?
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:10 pm
Quote: Alot of the abortion debate stems from when life begins. You evidently believe it begins after birth or sometime shortly before birth (from what I gather), but I believe life begins at conception. This is our first problem. And I'm not missing the point that not everyone believes in God, but they should (okay ... that was cynical of me ). It's hard for me to discuss things like this, because I can't wrap my head around a life apart from God. However, for the sake of discussion, I will try. If you don't believe that life is sacred in all its stages, then it's quite easy to make the decision in favor of yourself, to keep from ending up on the streets and what have you. Life doesn't begin at conception, both the sperm and the egg are alive. We have separation of church and state here in the US, so arguments based on religion would normally need to be thrown out, but there is a lot more leniency because this is a Christian guild, after all. I spent my naive early childhood believing anything my parents told me, so God, Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny were all givens. Then later, I got older it turned out Santa Clause, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter bunny were all elaborate hoaxes set about by my parents, so I guess I threw out the baby with the bathwater (no pun intended, since this is an abortion debate sweatdrop ). At that time, God was equivalent to waking up at six in the morning to go to church and sitting still while someone was talking about something I didn't understand and then going to sunday school. I rediscovered my faith later, but my point is that me personally, I have no trouble at all relating to atheists. God not existing seems the simplest conclusion. But life isn't simple, and even if God doesn't exist I like believing in God. In fact, I love it. I do believe life is sacred, but the sacredness of life as a justification for making abortion illegal just doesn't work for me. I would never have an abortion myself, but there's bodily domain, the overcrowded racist adoption system, women performing abortions on themselves, and many other reasons why I believe abortion should remain legal. Quote: Less often and easier to deal with. By getting rid of the thing that "causes" the problem? So we should take away alcohol because that would mean abuse of it would become less, and less people would get hurt and blah blah blah. Or, to make a better comparison: you killed a person. Now you can't deal with the consequences (i.e. guilt), so you kill yourself. Tell me how much sense that makes. Most women who get abortions did use protection. Meaning they did not set out to get pregnant, and then have an abortion. And neither did people who didn't use protection. A better comparison would be killing another person in self-defense. Being irresponsible and not using protection is like driving drunk and getting in a wreck. But just because that was completely irresponsible doesn't mean you should face the consequences and not recieve medical attention. Getting rid of alcohol is more like getting rid of abortion. The supply is cut off, but there's still a demand. People are making deals in back alleys, people are getting killed over it. Don't tell me people are already getting killed over abortion, because if the mother dies trying to give herself an abortion the fetus dies along with her. Quote: I never said birth control was wrong. I said abortion as birth control is wrong. As far as I know, today's birth control methods keep the egg and sperm from uniting in the first place. Abortion stops the pregnancy after the egg and sperm have already united. I say control the pregnancy before it happens. Abortion is birth control. It controls birth. What you mean is contraceptives. And most women getting abortions do use birth control/contraceptives/protection/whatever you want to call it. A pack of condoms and some birth control pills won't put a significant dent in your wallet. As opposed to abortion, which will. Not using contraceptives just because you 'could always get an abortion' is stupid. Really stupid.
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:27 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly Alot of the abortion debate stems from when life begins. You evidently believe it begins after birth or sometime shortly before birth (from what I gather), but I believe life begins at conception. This is our first problem.
And I'm not missing the point that not everyone believes in God, but they should (okay ... that was cynical of me sweatdrop ). It's hard for me to discuss things like this, because I can't wrap my head around a life apart from God. However, for the sake of discussion, I will try.
If you don't believe that life is sacred in all its stages, then it's quite easy to make the decision in favor of yourself, to keep from ending up on the streets and what have you. But let me use a personal anecdote.
My sister is a survivor, in two senses. She survived abortion (in that my mother finally decided to keep her) and survived even after being born nearly two months early. My mom was abusing drugs and alcohol at the time she found out she was pregnant. She was living in a halfway home, trying to raise one of my brothers. When my sister was born, everything changed. She realized she had to clean herself up because she had a new life to take care of, one that couldn't be gotten rid of with just twenty dollars. And no, my mother wasn't raped, but she didn't want my sister. Not at first, and some would have argued that it was in my mom's best interest to terminate the pregnancy. But just because consequences are consequences doesn't mean that something good can't come of them. My mom's (and therefore my sister's) story had a pretty happy ending if you ask me. Oh, I believe that life begins when a baby is conceived. It's medically alive, making it alive. However, so I don't think that "life" applies. It's more when it starts caring about that it's alive. It can't think or remeber. It doesn't care at all. What I think we're having more trouble with is the definition of life. You seem to have a totally different concept of life than me. That's why we have so much trouble. I can understand your thinking that everyone should believe in God. I think everyone should be agnostic. I think of us level headed and willing to accept new ideas. Atheists don't care about Christianity, all they know is that it's wrong. And the Christians seem not accept logic. So I totally understand the feeling. You know, I have the same problem, but opposite. I simply can't imagine beliveing in God. It's seems like going on blindly with no proof, yet total faith. It's just not how my brain works. Yes, that's another thing that hinders understanding. I think more about the brain and you think more about the spirit. It's just different values. I think that it's wonderful that your mother had that kind of personal strength. I admire a person who can do that. But legalized abortion is for the people who lack that kind of resolve. Quote: Less often and easier to deal with. By getting rid of the thing that "causes" the problem? So we should take away alcohol because that would mean abuse of it would become less, and less people would get hurt and blah blah blah. Or, to make a better comparison: you killed a person. Now you can't deal with the consequences (i.e. guilt), so you kill yourself. Tell me how much sense that makes. If you were to take away alcohol, the want for it would only increase. If you take alcohol away from people, it just makes them want it. If you let a child constantly eat chocolate whenever they want, they'll get sick of it and sttop eating it. But, if you take the chocolate away, they'll want it, bercause they can't have it. That's how the human brain works. I really don't understand how murder is a better comparison. I might just be tired right now and not able to udnerstand things very well, but I'm going to leave. Quote: I never said birth control was wrong. I said abortion as birth control is wrong. As far as I know, today's birth control methods keep the egg and sperm from uniting in the first place. Abortion stops the pregnancy after the egg and sperm have already united. I say control the pregnancy before it happens. Oh, my mistake. I misunderstood you. oops... sweatdrop Yes, I agree birthcontrol is a much better way to deal with things.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:06 pm
Dr. Kool If you were to take away alcohol, the want for it would only increase. If you take alcohol away from people, it just makes them want it. If you let a child constantly eat chocolate whenever they want, they'll get sick of it and sttop eating it. But, if you take the chocolate away, they'll want it, bercause they can't have it. That's how the human brain works.
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:24 am
Quote: In 99% of the abortions performed in the world today, the reason is “retroactive birth control.” A woman and/or her partner decide they do not want the baby they have conceived. So, they decide to end the life of their child instead of dealing with the responsibility. This is an utmost evil. Even in the more difficult 1% of instances, abortion should never be the first option. The life of a human being in the womb is worth every effort to allow a full-term birthing process. Quote: Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that God knows us before He knits us in the womb. Psalm 139:13-16 speaks of God’s active role in our creation and formation in the womb. Exodus 21:22-25 prescribes the same penalty for someone who causes the death of a baby in the womb as the penalty for someone who commits murder. This clearly indicates that God considers a baby in the womb as just as much of a human being as a full-grown adult. For the Christian, abortion is not a matter of a woman’s right to choose. It is a matter of the life or death of a human being made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26-27; 9:6). For all of you who also say that what about rape well i know this gurl and though i dont walk up to her mother and ask i am pretty sure that her mother had her from a rape and (they r both christians and her daught is one of my close friends) and her daughter is her life, she loves her with ALL her heart and she bought her soo many blessing. I dont think its a bad thing if u get pregnate from a rape i think its a blessing out of pain that God seems fit to give u a loving life from such an unpleasent thing. And yes i do know the pain of rape i suffered about 7yr of sexual abuse so i know the pains of being force into sexual actions but i would never have asked a child to give their life to make me feel better.
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:28 am
Quote: For all of you who also say that what about rape well i know this gurl and though i dont walk up to her mother and ask i am pretty sure that her mother had her from a rape and (they r both christians and her daught is one of my close friends) and her daughter is her life, she loves her with ALL her heart and she bought her soo many blessing. I dont think its a bad thing if u get pregnate from a rape i think its a blessing out of pain that God seems fit to give u a loving life from such an unpleasent thing. And yes i do know the pain of rape i suffered about 7yr of sexual abuse so i know the pains of being force into sexual actions but i would never have asked a child to give their life to make me feel better. I'm really happy for people who get pregnant from rape, and have their child and love it wholly and completely, but not everyone is that way. In fact people can get raped at any age, and they can get pregnant very early. A girl actually got pregnant at five. Would you support abortion for someone who could not give birth because it would kill them? Childbirth will permanently damage your body, even if you can handle it. What if you don't want the child, and it feels to you just a constant reminder of your rape? What if carrying the child to term makes you unable to go to college? These days the only jobs you can get on just a highschool education pay too little to support yourself, and especially not a child. What do you expect people to do if their pregnancy interferes with their entire life and they don't even love the child? To give it up for adoption, after having suffered it for nine months and permanently damaged their body from childbirth? And would you rather the mother try to give herself an abortion with a coathanger? Poison herself? Purposefully fall down a flight of stairs? Don't think I don't know that abortion is a terrible thing. I do. But the alternatives are just as terrible, perhaps more terrible. If you make abortions illegal, abortions won't stop. They will just become more dangerous. A fetus who is aborted will not feel pain, they will not mourn the loss of their potential life, they are another soul that simply slips away, like a miscarriage just a life that wasn't meant to be. But a child born to a mother who doesn't want them? They feel all kinds of pain, and they have the consciousness to know how it 'should' be. I would never have an abortion, but it should always be an option.
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:28 pm
So that girl who got pregnant at five ... that would have to mean she was menstruating around that time as well. I know girls are starting their periods earlier and earlier, but I really think that's a bit extreme and untrue. confused
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:58 pm
Quote: So that girl who got pregnant at five ... that would have to mean she was menstruating around that time as well. I know girls are starting their periods earlier and earlier, but I really think that's a bit extreme and untrue. I'm pretty sure it's true, but it is a fact that the youngest parents were eight and nine. I was using it as an example of someone who could not survive bearing a child. I doubt the child would survive either. In that case, where both the fetus and the mother would die, it would be better for one to die than for them both to die.
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:18 pm
In that case, I can see how that makes sense, the parents choosing for their child to live rather than to lose both their child and their grandchild (especially one who's only five). In cases where the mother is much older though, it becomes harder for me to say what decision I believe is right, or more right.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:37 pm
Quote: In that case, I can see how that makes sense, the parents choosing for their child to live rather than to lose both their child and their grandchild (especially one who's only five). In cases where the mother is much older though, it becomes harder for me to say what decision I believe is right, or more right. There are other cases, in which a mother could carry the child to term without dying. I assume you believe that abortion is right when both would die, that it's better to have just one die. I believe that if the mother knew from an early point that she would definitely die and the child would definitly live, that it would be her choice. As well I think it's always the mother's choice, but if abortion were made illegal I would hope it would remain legal at least when the mother's life is in danger.
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:51 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly So that girl who got pregnant at five ... that would have to mean she was menstruating around that time as well. I know girls are starting their periods earlier and earlier, but I really think that's a bit extreme and untrue. confused it's true.
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:52 pm
Well I'm happy the birth was succesful and all, but what I was trying to get at is that you can get pregnant before your body can handle childbirth.
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:02 pm
Captain_Theoretical Quote: In that case, I can see how that makes sense, the parents choosing for their child to live rather than to lose both their child and their grandchild (especially one who's only five). In cases where the mother is much older though, it becomes harder for me to say what decision I believe is right, or more right. There are other cases, in which a mother could carry the child to term without dying. I assume you believe that abortion is right when both would die, that it's better to have just one die. I believe that if the mother knew from an early point that she would definitely die and the child would definitly live, that it would be her choice. As well I think it's always the mother's choice, but if abortion were made illegal I would hope it would remain legal at least when the mother's life is in danger.
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High-functioning Businesswoman
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:48 pm
Quote: I don't think abortion is right in any case, just easier to understand in the more extreme cases. I hold it against people who are too immature to be having sex and therefore too immature to have babies who end up killing their babies because they made a stupid decision to begin with. I hold them 100% accountable and responsible. In the case where the baby was planned but where the mother or her and her baby would die, I'm more lenient (though it's not really my place to judge ... can't help it though ). I won't think the person is terrible for actually placing value on their life. Personally I would always choose the baby's life over my own, but I can totally see where another woman would be coming from in that situation. Does that make sense? I understand where you're coming from completely. It is the more noble path to choose your child's life over your own, but I wouldn't do it. I would do it if I had already had the child, but if I have an abortion rather than die myself, it won't know what it missed. If I die and have the baby, I will know what I will be missing: watching my child grow up, if not my life in general, and the child will know what it is missing: a mother. And yes I can see where you're coming from with irresponsible people taking responsibility for their actions, but most abortions are not performed on teenagers who are 'too young' to be having sex. All the anxiety and pain that's caused by pregnancy and having an abortion should knock some responsibility into you. If you got pregnant from not using protection, chances are you'll use protection next time. And again, not everyone wants children, not everyone can support children (at any age, there are people who simply cannot afford it), and protection is not 100% effective. I say: if you're going to bring a child into this world, you better take responsibility for it. If you're irresponsible and have sex at a very young age without using protection, I wouldn't trust you with a child. If you're can't afford to support a child, don't have one. Every life is yours to bear, and a lot of people can't bear the fact that they had an abortion. A lot of people who regret their abortions felt pressured into them, and that's terrible. That's against both pro-choice and pro-life idealogies. If you know you will regret an abortion for the rest of your life, don't have one. But consider the risks and benefits. Consider the life that you are taking responsibility for as well. And consider the fact that giving your child up for adoption could be so much more painful, and their life would be so much worse. I believe and hope that I will never be faced with that sort of desicion, because I believe I will not have sex until I can support a child. But you can't predict the future, and I do hope I will not be faced with that because I do not know exactly what I'd do. I say I'd never have an abortion, but I can't deal in absolutes. It would break my heart to have an abortion. But I do not have the strength to give a child up for adoption, I know I would never able to do that. To be able to see your child, and then hand it over to someone else? It would take enormous strength, and I certainly don't have it in me. I just think we need abortions. Sure, it would be great to say that everyone should just not have sex. But jails are terrible as well, and we can't just ask the general population to stop committing crimes. It's unreasonable. And there are no other options like abortion. I hope one day we will artificial wombs or some other such thing to remove a fetus from the mother without killing it. But we just can't. For now, I'm pro-choice.
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