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Physical Sex, Gender Identity, & Sexual Orientation

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Is your gender...?
  Female.
  Male.
  Androgynous.
  Neutrois.
  Pangendered.
  Third gendered (two-spirit/berdache, Sadhin, Kathoey, Fakaleiti, Sworn-virgin/muskobanja, Fa'afafine, Hijra, Muxe, Khanith, Mukhannathun).
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FrozenIntellect

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:50 pm


Alright, this thread began many many months ago when I was much more ignorant, naive, and confused than I consider myself to be now. Therefore, I want to revamp the discussion topic and the information I am presenting.

I believe there are three major aspects that assist a person form a social sexual identity.
1. Physical Sex
2. Sexual Orientation
3. Mental Gender Identity

Physical Sex
Many people take for granted this idea of binary physical sex. In fact, did you know that until the Enlightenment (eighteenth century), there was no firm physical binary system? Before the 1700's, people believed that physical sex was a spectrum, that male and female differed to a certain degree, but were not separate sexes altogether. During the Enlightenment, science, philosophy, and psychology flourished and society decided that the details associated with each of these branches of thought needed to be definite and absolute. Hence the formation of a binary sex system.

I disagree with these "categories" of physical sex because I do not think they are specific enough nor do they include all sexes. If you are some "combination" of male and female, or lack the necessary "parts" that obviously make you male or female, then you are "intersex"; a word that few people are familiar with and those who are often fear it. There are three possible responses that usually accompany an intersex birth: the child is a freak of nature or a mistake and is either neglected or killed, the child is considered a horror or perversion of "normality" and must be "fixed" (infant genital mutation and hormone therapy, western culture), or the child is considered a divine blessing (often in asianic areas).

I'm going to refrain from going into how much the the western response to intersex infants infuriates me. But in my opinion, unless the child is in danger of dieing or being hurt from an imbalance in hormones or the configuration of their genitals-- there is NO reason to make them look "more normal". Also note, that an estimated 2% (large minority) of live births are intersex. We aren't even talking about one or two kids a year-- this is thousands.

Sexual Orientation
This aspect of a person's sexual identity involves labeling their attraction based upon the physical sexes of the two (or more) persons. Again, I feel this term is inept since it merely refers to the physical sex of the two people. Your attraction depends upon such a HUGE number of variables and for someone to bind themselves to a specific sex without taking into account the other factors is like saying you are attracted to people with long fingers. That's cool. Is that the only reason you feel attraction to them?

Plus, I believe that sexual orientation is fluid-- perhaps for a few hours, days, or years, someone may consider themselves physically female with a female gender, attracted to other physically and mentally female individuals. But at some point finds a physically and mentally identified male that she wants to date. While the fluidity of sexual orientation may not hold true for all people, MANY people feel attraction for a variety of genders or sexes at different times. However, it should be noted that due to the social implications of acting upon or voicing these feelings, few ever get enough courage to experiment with their sexuality. This is more true (usually) for those who consider themselves straight since it is "scandalous" to be be with someone of the "same" sex, especially if they continue calling themselves straight. Even in the gay community, individuals sometimes find it traitorous to date or sleep with individuals of the same sex, especially if not identified as bi.

Overall therefore, the system by which we label attraction (sexual orientation) is poorly suited for it's purpose, and also constraining.

Gender Identity
Gender is considered the mental counterpart to physical sex. Just because someone is physically male does not make their gender male. Nor are genders confined to male and female (just like orientation and physical sex are not). The more well known genders include female, male, transgendered, neutrois, androgynous, pangender, and third gender.

Transgendered is an umbrella term that includes anyone who's gender is not accurately reflected by their physical sex; the opposite of this is cisgendered.

Neutrois gendered individuals not only do not feel their gender aligns either as male or female, but also feel uncomfortable with the sex characteristics, genitals, etc., that create the "male" or "female" body. Even though this gender may seem fairly specific, it can still be broad since truely unsexing a body is nearly impossible.

Androgynous gender is essentially the opposite from a neutrois; while androgynes do not feel aligned to either male or female, they feel their bodies would be better suited for them were they to be compiled of the various characteristics of male and female both. This is also a bit general because obviously different androgynes may aspire to molding their bodies into any given combination of "female" and "male" attributes.

Pangender is a more general term which encompasses both androgynous and neutrois. It indicates an individual with no gender and all the possible genders. These individuals have a very broad range of how they may perceive and present their gender.

Third Gender is a general term for many other specific genders:


**Alright, I'm not done but this is taking me a while to type up. I'm not even through with the paragraphs above, but I'm going to stop for a while to clean up my apartment and such. I promise to finish soon, hopefully tonight. ** <3
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:12 pm


((wish i seen this early))
Well I don't really want to be either. And I guess I would say I would want the parts of the genders that don't dangle. That would make me happy. and I don't know what to tell you...I didn't even know this feeling had a name...so not much hlp from me.

Aaleayha_Wahida

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:21 pm


I would say I view myself as neither male nor female, I really just don't think about either but if I had to i'd say I could go either way if I wanted
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:31 am


I have to say that pretty much everything including male and female is mch more complicated than it seems. Gender expression is a really odd topic in that nothing is constant even within what is considered the social norm. I have to say that an androgynouse person is someone who feels most strongly that they want to be both or neither genders. Once you start leaning any decent amount to male or female then you are identifying as said gender and are either Cisgendered(confortable with birth gender) or transgendered(a blanket term describing those that express themselves as the opposite gender they were born as) and even within those tehre is veriation. Really there are no set terms its kind of like a large spectrum and certain sections are considered to fall under certain words and some just overlap.

Sorry if that is confusing, but anyway I have to get to class. I will post some concrete recognized terms later today.

Dizy_lizy


chiaroscuro13

Dapper Veteran

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:51 pm


Just to throw this out there, I've recently come across the term "Affectional Orientation" which is under the Asexual terminology. It basically referrs to the view that orientation is defined by whom one has affection towards and that sexual attraction is based on affection for another human being's personal qualities rather than their gender or appearance; sex and gender playing no part in the attraction.

There are just so many compounded variables to achieving true Androgyny, many of them depend on the percievers predisposition. There are certain physical characteristics that pertain to guys and gals that set the mold. One way of creating an androgenous look is to be one of these two genders physically but add strong qualities of the other. The androgyne affect can be created that way, by being seen as another because of the strong cross-gender qualities. An example of that would be a really fine hair cut a girl gets which resembles a guys (i.e. a sk8tor boy hair style which is already a femminine cross-over style for the guys).

My life is daily struggle between true androgyne, that being in the mind. I constantly have to draw the line between my physical actions being percieved vs. the importance of trusting my own self, being myself. I have been wildly succuessful in passing for the opposite gender without having to wear concealing clothing and I relish those external triumphs but what's really important is what's inside even though the outside is largely influential to what's inside.

So to discuss the question about being an androgyne, yes I truly desire to have neither male nor female parts to me but such a thing is a contradictory to begin with. One must have resemblings of something to seem another. My physical body disgusts me at times, so much that I have to look away in the shower and think back to my mental projection of myself inside.
Unfortunately I have not met many others really like me (exept Belial here on my signature/profile) so I can not speak for a community--if one exists.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:29 pm


Okay, I haven't mentioned this yet, but I adore the way you write Chairo. <3

Anyways: affectional orientation. That is incredibly interesting.. and makes sense. My girlfriend and I have had many conversations about our inability to label our relationship (not necessarily a bad thing) since we both consider ourselves "gay".. but my gender is not female-- it's neutrois (androgynous). I think we are considered homosexual since our physical sexes are the same, but could be considered in a heterogendered relationship since our emotional/mental genders are not the same. The problem them comes in that 'hetero-" anything usually indicates "opposite of"... female gender and neutrois gender are not opposites?

In regard to all of that, then, I have often asked her if she would still love me were I male (in the event I was FtM and decided to transition). And she says that she absolutely would because she loves who I am, and my body does not make me, but rather is a part of me and is simply a way of expressing myself. Though she has a stable female gender, I've also expressed the same towards her. But simultaneously, I would like to comment that I'm not sure if this would hold through for either of us for other people. We ARE both attracted to females usually, but in this case, our love is deeper than just our physical sexes. I really like that term.. affectional attraction. <3

chiaroscuro13
I constantly have to draw the line between my physical actions being percieved vs. the importance of trusting my own self, being myself.


I struggled with this more during my years in high school; however, as I've more closely completed moving my body towards the neutrois/androgyny that I desire and feel more comfortable in, I've become less preoccupied in filtering my mannerisms. It could also be that after 4 years of worrying so much about it, I've gotten much better are moving and acting the way I want to. -shrug-


chiaroscuro13
So to discuss the question about being an androgyne, yes I truely desire to have neither male nor female parts to me, but such a thing is a contradictory to begin with. One must have resemblings of something to seem another. My physical body disgusts me at times, so much that I have to look away in the shower and think back to my mental projection of myself inside.


Me too. You are the 1st person I've met who doesn't want any male or female parts! heart I've only ever known one other androgyne, but she is truly more androgynous than neutrois-- she wants all the parts. Actually, for quite a while I thought I might be FtM. My parents kept re-enforcing the idea that I wanted to "be a guy" even however many times I denied the charge. Plus, if anyone ever referred to me as "she" or "her" or a "lady" my brain actually tripped. If a mind can stumble, it does when someone refers to me as female; I have to remind myself that I do indeed have a female body. But after a time, I realized I have no desire to be male or even obtain male parts in part or whole... but I also didn't want female parts.

To be honest however, I would never get any sort of bottom surgery. If I had to choose between female or male parts, I would always choose female. I'm not sure if this is because I'm more comfortable with the idea of being female because I've been raised my whole life as such, or if it's just that there are SO many perks to being female (in my mind), or if the idea of knives need a place with so many nerves just flat out horrifies me. Probably some combination of all of them. However, I actually really want top surgery... not to remove my breasts, but simply to get them reduced and shaped in a way that will allow me to bind and pass or ambipass (as neutrois/androgynous) more easily. Also, I'd never make my chest completely flat because I feel like I'd be robbing my girlfriend of an excellent pillow and toy. xD

Chiaro, I understand you are avoiding any type of surgery right now... but are you hoping for it in the future or what is your opinion of it?

FrozenIntellect


I_am_K

PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:32 pm


I feel like I fit into this only partially. I identify as a woman, I feel that my gender and sex are aligned precisely. But I express myself androgynously, I am not feminine. My gender identity and my gender expression are very different
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:38 pm


All of this is making my head spin. I'll try to come up with something to contribute later. You can also check out my rambling post in Metamorphosis Lycanthropy's thread.

Dystopia Lycanthropia


ftm420

Wheezing Werewolf

PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:51 pm


Huh. This is interesting stuff.
My physical sex is female, and I'm comfortable with that, but I feel better going by both pronouns. It feels more 'me' sometimes to have my girlfriend call me her boyfriend, or to not correct a teacher when he calls me 'he'. (My teachers mistake me for a guy on a regular basis, I think it's awesome/funny)
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:37 pm


Wynter Rain
Huh. This is interesting stuff.
My physical sex is female, and I'm comfortable with that, but I feel better going by both pronouns. It feels more 'me' sometimes to have my girlfriend call me her boyfriend, or to not correct a teacher when he calls me 'he'. (My teachers mistake me for a guy on a regular basis, I think it's awesome/funny)

That would make you genderqueer, from what you've said. :3 Or possibly a little androgynous, too... But I think genderqueer's a little closer to it, if you feel comfortable going by both pronouns rather than a gender-neutral pronoun. *nod*

Dystopia Lycanthropia


chiaroscuro13

Dapper Veteran

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:58 pm


Oh my freakin' gosh, this is so funny to read again after so much time has passed! Wow I responded to this post in like 4 Dec. of '07! So radical!

Sabi, as I re-read through all this it really is astounding how much we've gained in such a short time, and how much I've grown as well in my own personal wisdom.

I also want to thank you for putting "Neutrios" and all of the Third gender terms up there; they are simply excellent and I applaude you for mentioning them! mrgreen (like Berdache and Fa'afafine in particular).


FrozenIntellect
Okay, I haven't mentioned this yet, but I adore the way you write Chairo. <3


Haha, well thank you! Such compliments make my brain trip sometimes too, lol.

FrozenIntellect
...affectional orientation. That is incredibly interesting.. and makes sense. My girlfriend and I have had many conversations about our inability to label our relationship (not necessarily a bad thing) since we both consider ourselves "gay".. but my gender is not female-- it's neutrois (androgynous). I think we are considered homosexual since our physical sexes are the same, but could be considered in a heterogendered relationship since our emotional/mental genders are not the same. The problem them comes in that 'hetero-" anything usually indicates "opposite of"... female gender and neutrois gender are not opposites?


And that leads into the incredibly interesting subject of those third gendereds you mentioned like the Fa'afafine who are considered a blessing to the household for being of two spirits. In Samoa, young men are permitted to engage in sexual relations with Fa'afafine as a first timer experience without it even being considered a homosexual situation. Fa'afafine do not however engage in sexual relations with each other b/c that, in itself, is considered to be a homosexual relation and is taboo. The idea there of gender identiy is more social and idealistic rather than the physical sex organs or outward appearance regulations we excersise here in the West.

FrozenIntellect
...she loves who I am, and my body does not make me, but rather is a part of me and is simply a way of expressing myself.
...our love is deeper than just our physical sexes. I really like that term.. affectional attraction. <3


I believe in that too but also struggle with determining what my true feelings are when pressed with gender identiy as defined by our Western society. How much of my feelings are based on what I truly feel or on what my percieved identity role is comprising.

FrozenIntellect
Me too. You are the 1st person I've met who doesn't want any male or female parts! heart I've only ever known one other androgyne, but she is truly more androgynous than neutrois-- she wants all the parts. Chiaro, I understand you are avoiding any type of surgery right now... but are you hoping for it in the future or what is your opinion of it?


I am glad to have the strength to make gold out of my shadow.
To answer your question, yes I have considered surgery. At the very least mastectonomy and an artificial organ but as I've said: determining my true hearts path and what's the right, most suitable path for me to take depends on me getting in touch with what and who I am, for real.
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♥Gender Issues: Discuss transitioning, passing, meds, doctors or anything else.

 
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