Who am I?

[27x]

Who am I? Who are you? Who are we? Who is to say? Who knows? What do I mean when I say myself. What is a self. I should say it is my mind, but what is my mind? A complex system made up of which side of my brain I use? Perhaps what we might call a soul, or a personality? Or is our mind set. Is it nonexitent? Who is to say? Supposing I could controll my brainwaves, and I changed the way my mind works, would I still have a self? Would I have a new self? Would I know who I was? Would I even change at all? If My memories where changed, would I change as well? Who is to say? Who knows? Who am I? Who are you?  

[CaboCor]

I kno who i am, if I love i am, if i feel pain, i am, if i feel anger, i am, if i feel sadness, i am.....I am just an average person, who is living in dis dark but beautiful world.....Just a single being, who is a questions God, but follows his Almightiness at the same time.....

well, deez sorts of questions, sumtimes r never meant, to be answered, perhaps time, or rather the Almighty God, will give da answer...  

[AbrAbraxas]

sometimes it is easier to examine who or what you are not and from what remains you may have a better idea of what you are looking for.

i would say that i am not my thoughts, i am not my emotions, i am not the sensations i feel or the things that i experience. who or what is the driver behind all of this, how could we define something like that? pure force? consciousness?  

[27x]

I think I understand what you're going at. I think we are our memories. People with amnesia, memory loss, alshimers, can be very different from themselves, depending on the severity of the condition. If I forgot the past five years of my life, then I would be exactly like I was five years ago, except with memories that where less dimm(since I don't remember exactly what thigns happened before five years ago. Just getting older I suppose). I could still function. I could walk, breathe, and eat, but I still wouldn't be exactly the person I am today. I would still be me but I would have changed. If I forget when I learned how to read, then I could still read, because of the memories afterwards. If I fet all of my memories of reading, then I couldn't read. Trial and error. If I forget my mistakes, then I forget my punishments, and forget what wisdom I have learned. I suppose behind the memories is some kind of essence, but the memories discern the rest. If I forget everything, I am just a baby in an older persons body. I suppose it is kind of sinister, but I don't mean to put this as a depressing view.

Have any of you ever seen that movie where they took a teenage boy who had done some kind of crime, then altered the memories of his childhood. Before he remembered a terrible childhood. They gave him memories of a loving family, and a happy moral life. Afterwards he was a better person for it. I suppose I can't base all of my beliefs on a movie, but seeing it gives a good example. I am sorry, but I can't remember the name.  

[aaaaafkp]

To turn around and say, "Who am I?" is really best followed with "Who do I want to be?"

Life is really more about creating ourselves than finding ourselves. The subjective concept of a "self" is nothing more than a perception of some highly complex biological processes which we all react to in unique yet still predefined ways.

Is it non-existent? Of course not. You questioned it, didn't you?
If it were non-existent, it would be sort of like nothing, but even nothing is something. You cannot even comprehend "nothing".

Take apart half the things you do on a daily basis, and realize they're only there because you believe in doing them. Why or how you believe in doing them, well that's unique to the external stimuli around you. If your memories change, you might be different. It just depends what roles those memories play in the creation that is "you".  

[AbrAbraxas]

Paracket

Take apart half the things you do on a daily basis, and realize they're only there because you believe in doing them. Why or how you believe in doing them, well that's unique to the external stimuli around you. If your memories change, you might be different. It just depends what roles those memories play in the creation that is "you".

very good points there and it brings up some ever unanswered questions, like why is it that some people believe in a good and fair reality yet bad things repeatedly occur in their lives, yet other people might not examine reality more than superficially and seem to live a life full of "good luck" and the same might be reversed. i suppose i am not really saying anything. most of our beliefs about reality, those beliefs that shape reality as you have said, are subconscious, that people dont always intend to believe in what they do believe so at a certain point in their lives it is each of our responsibilities to search deep within those dark halls of our being to find what it is that is in there regardless of how it got there and confront or deal with the contents of our being, to know and acknowledge those unknown beliefs and make our reality as you have pointed out, a choice, a creation and not just a collection of impressions that agglutinated around us in the process growing up. it is our responsibility to do both as is the topic of this thread to find ourselves and to do as you suggest to decide who we want to be and resolve the differences. as it is said that would require some deal of soul searching, just because you find something within does not mean that it has to be there we have the opportunity especially as humans with the power of awareness and free choice to metaprogram the contents of our being.
good day
and welcome  

[aaaaafkp]

AbrAbraxas

Paracket

Take apart half the things you do on a daily basis, and realize they're only there because you believe in doing them. Why or how you believe in doing them, well that's unique to the external stimuli around you. If your memories change, you might be different. It just depends what roles those memories play in the creation that is "you".

very good points there and it brings up some ever unanswered questions, like why is it that some people believe in a good and fair reality yet bad things repeatedly occur in their lives, yet other people might not examine reality more than superficially and seem to live a life full of "good luck" and the same might be reversed. i suppose i am not really saying anything. most of our beliefs about reality, those beliefs that shape reality as you have said, are subconscious, that people dont always intend to believe in what they do believe so at a certain point in their lives it is each of our responsibilities to search deep within those dark halls of our being to find what it is that is in there regardless of how it got there and confront or deal with the contents of our being, to know and acknowledge those unknown beliefs and make our reality as you have pointed out, a choice, a creation and not just a collection of impressions that agglutinated around us in the process growing up. it is our responsibility to do both as is the topic of this thread to find ourselves and to do as you suggest to decide who we want to be and resolve the differences. as it is said that would require some deal of soul searching, just because you find something within does not mean that it has to be there we have the opportunity especially as humans with the power of awareness and free choice to metaprogram the contents of our being.
good day
and welcome

Very good, that pinpoints a sort of self-revelation.

A hypothesis:
When you look at what makes you, and you compare it to your perception of the world-- that is an ultimate method in choosing which direction you could go in your life. There are some things about ourselves which feel so natural and next to impossible to change, that which just feel right with who you are, but what if they're really in our heart of hearts MALLEABLE? What I mean is when you look, you see what makes life easy and what makes life more difficult. The control of your being in conjunction of going after your goals in life could make life much easier (even if to some degree changing yourself to suit society to make life easier is very much a lie). It's still more honorable to face life through any endeavors you go through. I personally believe life was not meant to be easy, even though I experience extended periods of time when everything is just chill and easy to flow with.

A belief:
And a superficial perception on life is the healthiest (granted it's positive anyway, but even a negative one is none the less better than the purely articulative), because you're LIVING. There comes a point when all the words you've spent in articulation of the obvious and perplexities become irrational, and it is only wise to live your life, taking day by day in a state of being a bit more subconscious despite you've looked at what is behind these larger conceptions.

Personal conception from my own hindsight:
There was a point in my adolescence when nothing was subconscious. Tell me, how do you live when you're busy trying to find out what living is and how you're gonna do it? I see people who are in constant articulation of themselves and others, and my belief is (I guess it's contradictory to my point, because I'm analyzing analytical people. o_O) :
1) They're bored.
2) Uninteresting.
3) Lonely.
or/and
4) Confused.

Contemplation of these "deep" concepts is personally interesting to me (and of course everyone else in this guild). It's something for our brains to chew on. But really, there's a time and place for it. I'm by no means suggesting to abolish thought processes of observation in general- that's part of what we do as humans.

A Conclusion:
I guess all I'm trying to say is too much cognizance doesn't construct anything about you. It has little personality, and little true outcome. It can't help you do well in school either ('cept for more English-type subjects).

You can only be yourself in the purest sense when "you" isn't sought or second guessed on a highly cognitive level. You can only understand and modify (if you wish) your self when you wish to contemplate it.





So Yup, there's another one of my drawn-out conceptions and guesses. rolleyes Lots of time on my hands...

Any thoughts though? I'm curious.  

[Necera]

I_27_04

I think I understand what you're going at. I think we are our memories. People with amnesia, memory loss, alshimers, can be very different from themselves, depending on the severity of the condition. If I forgot the past five years of my life, then I would be exactly like I was five years ago, except with memories that where less dimm(since I don't remember exactly what thigns happened before five years ago. Just getting older I suppose). I could still function. I could walk, breathe, and eat, but I still wouldn't be exactly the person I am today. I would still be me but I would have changed. If I forget when I learned how to read, then I could still read, because of the memories afterwards. If I fet all of my memories of reading, then I couldn't read. Trial and error. If I forget my mistakes, then I forget my punishments, and forget what wisdom I have learned. I suppose behind the memories is some kind of essence, but the memories discern the rest. If I forget everything, I am just a baby in an older persons body. I suppose it is kind of sinister, but I don't mean to put this as a depressing view.

Have any of you ever seen that movie where they took a teenage boy who had done some kind of crime, then altered the memories of his childhood. Before he remembered a terrible childhood. They gave him memories of a loving family, and a happy moral life. Afterwards he was a better person for it. I suppose I can't base all of my beliefs on a movie, but seeing it gives a good example. I am sorry, but I can't remember the name.

Interesting stuff....

B.T.W. nice sig smile  

[AbrAbraxas]

I_27_04

I think I understand what you're going at. I think we are our memories. People with amnesia, memory loss, alshimers, can be very different from themselves, depending on the severity of the condition. If I forgot the past five years of my life, then I would be exactly like I was five years ago, except with memories that where less dimm(since I don't remember exactly what thigns happened before five years ago. Just getting older I suppose). I could still function. I could walk, breathe, and eat, but I still wouldn't be exactly the person I am today. I would still be me but I would have changed. If I forget when I learned how to read, then I could still read, because of the memories afterwards. If I fet all of my memories of reading, then I couldn't read. Trial and error. If I forget my mistakes, then I forget my punishments, and forget what wisdom I have learned. I suppose behind the memories is some kind of essence, but the memories discern the rest. If I forget everything, I am just a baby in an older persons body. I suppose it is kind of sinister, but I don't mean to put this as a depressing view.

Have any of you ever seen that movie where they took a teenage boy who had done some kind of crime, then altered the memories of his childhood. Before he remembered a terrible childhood. They gave him memories of a loving family, and a happy moral life. Afterwards he was a better person for it. I suppose I can't base all of my beliefs on a movie, but seeing it gives a good example. I am sorry, but I can't remember the name.

that is a very well thought out response, but there is one thing i would like to say about it. even if you lose your memory you still are, it is still you. what you are doing here is identifying the ego self with the whole I what i am saying is slightly different. in certain metaphysical philosophies they speak of a higher self, an over soul, the ideal soul, the I AM, the archetypal soul, and it is said that that is who and what you really are. this body is a tool through which you experience the physical world, your emotions allow you to experience each other and to relate to separate things, to love, to hate, to enjoy and all that, it is all about relations. your mind, including your memories, may seem to be the seat of your identity but that does not mean that it is who or what you are. you mind is used to assemble and sort the vast amounts of data available to you, it is the tool that you use to master the lower self (the body and emotions) and in turn the mind must be mastered in order to be used properly, who is it that does the mastering? at death there is still a body, the glands that produce the feelings of emotions still lie within it, there is still a brain possibly full of memories, but what has gone? the I has gone. that is something that we have to explore for ourselves because it is a self knowledge and cannot be passed on through words as you could describe how to build something or perform a physical task.
i am not trying to say that anyone is wrong or discourage anyone from their own views, but i am making my point.
good day

and paracket, i have begun a response to your post that is written on paper and i will type it up later.  

[27x]

Memory is experience. experience is wisdom. wisdom teaches you how to act. Without memories you couldn't have said all the things you have just said, and it would take you many many years to understand it again.

But then again that's just my opinion. Yours is kind of interesting.  

[AbrAbraxas]

I_27_04

Memory is experience. experience is wisdom. wisdom teaches you how to act. Without memories you couldn't have said all the things you have just said, and it would take you many many years to understand it again.

But then again that's just my opinion. Yours is kind of interesting.

i understand and agree with you and i am very glad that you find what i have said interesting. many of the wise philosophies speak of the true self as existing before the body is fully formed or even before the body, and thus before any experience. it makes me think of the famous picture by Michaelangelo in the Sistine chapel where god is reaching out with one finger to touch the outstretched finger of man. if i were to redo it to fit my concepts i would have man sitting in a lotus position and gods over sized ethereal hand is reaching down and the very tip of his finger is touching the top of man's head, because i think that we we take to be everything, this life and all that we do, this body and all our feeble grasping and experience is only the tip of gods finger, in metaphor. god is our true self, our true reality, yet we think that all these things that we do are... but what we think, whatever it may be doesnt matter, and doesnt change anything but can only shape our experience and only has to do with the narrow scope of our life in this small corner of the world which we live in.
good day  

[Stallin]

Quote:

Who am I? Who are you? Who are we? Who is to say? Who knows? What do I mean when I say myself. What is a self. I should say it is my mind, but what is my mind? A complex system made up of which side of my brain I use? Perhaps what we might call a soul, or a personality? Or is our mind set. Is it nonexitent? Who is to say? Supposing I could controll my brainwaves, and I changed the way my mind works, would I still have a self? Would I have a new self? Would I know who I was? Would I even change at all? If My memories where changed, would I change as well? Who is to say? Who knows? Who am I? Who are you

I would say that we exist. I dont know how you feel about existance, as for me id say that if one thing was undebatable its that the world and everything in it exists. If we didnt who am i would be a pretty hard question to put an answer on. Lots of philosophers have their own definition of what makes our existance an existance. "I think therefore i am" or "compassion seprates us from beasts." if a brain defines your existance then it has to define the existance of everything that has a brain. Human knowlege of what a soul is, if it is, and what it is, is very limited. Its based on faith. If you have faith that you have a soul and that it defines your existance then thats what you believe and your question is answered. If you change your mind, memories, or personallity you have definatley changed. I would not say that you where a new person, thats only my opinion. I dont know if everything changes but i know that change happens. However if you where a new person everytime you change, how would you be old twice? Or a better question, If you cycle between old and new as often as you change would it really be concidered old and new? a car is only new once. Even recyclables like glass and paper is only really new once. For one person to define the existance of self for every thing with existance, thats very tough. You can define your own existance by thought, or spirit, or compassion whatever you decide to put your faith on. I wont try to define my own existance because there is always a possibility of the other alternative being correct. there is no definite way for me to define my own existance. But i know that i am.  

[AbrAbraxas]

Paracket

Very good, that pinpoints a sort of self-revelation.

A hypothesis:
When you look at what makes you, and you compare it to your perception of the world-- that is an ultimate method in choosing which direction you could go in your life. There are some things about ourselves which feel so natural and next to impossible to change, that which just feel right with who you are, but what if they're really in our heart of hearts MALLEABLE? What I mean is when you look, you see what makes life easy and what makes life more difficult. The control of your being in conjunction of going after your goals in life could make life much easier (even if to some degree changing yourself to suit society to make life easier is very much a lie). It's still more honorable to face life through any endeavors you go through. I personally believe life was not meant to be easy, even though I experience extended periods of time when everything is just chill and easy to flow with.

A belief:
And a superficial perception on life is the healthiest (granted it's positive anyway, but even a negative one is none the less better than the purely articulative), because you're LIVING. There comes a point when all the words you've spent in articulation of the obvious and perplexities become irrational, and it is only wise to live your life, taking day by day in a state of being a bit more subconscious despite you've looked at what is behind these larger conceptions.

Personal conception from my own hindsight:
There was a point in my adolescence when nothing was subconscious. Tell me, how do you live when you're busy trying to find out what living is and how you're gonna do it? I see people who are in constant articulation of themselves and others, and my belief is (I guess it's contradictory to my point, because I'm analyzing analytical people. o_O) :
1) They're bored.
2) Uninteresting.
3) Lonely.
or/and
4) Confused.

Contemplation of these "deep" concepts is personally interesting to me (and of course everyone else in this guild). It's something for our brains to chew on. But really, there's a time and place for it. I'm by no means suggesting to abolish thought processes of observation in general- that's part of what we do as humans.

A Conclusion:
I guess all I'm trying to say is too much cognizance doesn't construct anything about you. It has little personality, and little true outcome. It can't help you do well in school either ('cept for more English-type subjects).

You can only be yourself in the purest sense when "you" isn't sought or second guessed on a highly cognitive level. You can only understand and modify (if you wish) your self when you wish to contemplate it.





So Yup, there's another one of my drawn-out conceptions and guesses. rolleyes Lots of time on my hands...

Any thoughts though? I'm curious.

Well after reading your message i had no time to respond immediately and perhaps that is a good thing because i likely would have said a whole lot without making any point, i was inspired later that day and wrote a bunch of stuff on a piece of paper most of which i wont use. now i too may be guilty of a similar offense but i seems that you are attacking something yet im not sure what it is, at one point i thought that you might be trying to discredit me but i dont think that is the issue. you seems to have something against analysis and as you pointed out you paradoxically make this point through analysis. what i think that you are trying to put your finger on is the potential pointlessness of thought for thoughts sake, or the empty life of an intelligitsa, but im not even sure why you attempted to make this point. you also seem to think that someone is bored, uninteresting, confused and lonely, yet im not sure who you are directing that towards, regardless those are merely matters of perspective. a bored person who is engaged in activity is no longer bored, uninteresting is always a matter of opinion, and who isn't a little lonely and confused sometimes, if you are not then you probably should be.
another point you half heartedly make is against, perhaps, the ideal of being articulate? and for a superficial awareness. i would have to agree that many people perhaps are better of with only knowing the basics of how to live rather than being distressed about the immensity of life. but i find life more fulfilling when i view it as an endless source of awe and wonder and an immense mystery which i have little hope of completely knowing. people who think that they know everything because they have a grasp of the superficial realm may be successful in the world yet they are often unhappy and pained by stress and prematurely aged by an ebbing amount of vitality, though there are seeming exceptions. regardless the happy unexamined life might be a baseless myth, ignorance is only a momentary bliss, the only real bliss is through awareness.
i feel and think that expression is one of mans greatest gifts. a superficial use of it churns out crappy emo-bands but a true diligence and disciplined approach produces authors and poets revered decades and century's after their deaths. how many musicians have been forgotten in a matter of years while you think consider that over a hundred years ago Emily Dickenson and R.W. Emerson were writing timeless reflections that are still read by seekers and intelligent people today. it is true analysis can separate us from the experience of life but it can also bring us into a great awareness and i do not believe that there is a time to stop and put away our tools of reflection and awareness.
if you want to read more about a similar subject read the matrix thread or this excellent book available online:
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/gsoy/index.htm
good day  

[aaaaafkp]

AbrAbraxas

Paracket

Very good, that pinpoints a sort of self-revelation.

A hypothesis:
When you look at what makes you, and you compare it to your perception of the world-- that is an ultimate method in choosing which direction you could go in your life. There are some things about ourselves which feel so natural and next to impossible to change, that which just feel right with who you are, but what if they're really in our heart of hearts MALLEABLE? What I mean is when you look, you see what makes life easy and what makes life more difficult. The control of your being in conjunction of going after your goals in life could make life much easier (even if to some degree changing yourself to suit society to make life easier is very much a lie). It's still more honorable to face life through any endeavors you go through. I personally believe life was not meant to be easy, even though I experience extended periods of time when everything is just chill and easy to flow with.

A belief:
And a superficial perception on life is the healthiest (granted it's positive anyway, but even a negative one is none the less better than the purely articulative), because you're LIVING. There comes a point when all the words you've spent in articulation of the obvious and perplexities become irrational, and it is only wise to live your life, taking day by day in a state of being a bit more subconscious despite you've looked at what is behind these larger conceptions.

Personal conception from my own hindsight:
There was a point in my adolescence when nothing was subconscious. Tell me, how do you live when you're busy trying to find out what living is and how you're gonna do it? I see people who are in constant articulation of themselves and others, and my belief is (I guess it's contradictory to my point, because I'm analyzing analytical people. o_O) :
1) They're bored.
2) Uninteresting.
3) Lonely.
or/and
4) Confused.

Contemplation of these "deep" concepts is personally interesting to me (and of course everyone else in this guild). It's something for our brains to chew on. But really, there's a time and place for it. I'm by no means suggesting to abolish thought processes of observation in general- that's part of what we do as humans.

A Conclusion:
I guess all I'm trying to say is too much cognizance doesn't construct anything about you. It has little personality, and little true outcome. It can't help you do well in school either ('cept for more English-type subjects).

You can only be yourself in the purest sense when "you" isn't sought or second guessed on a highly cognitive level. You can only understand and modify (if you wish) your self when you wish to contemplate it.





So Yup, there's another one of my drawn-out conceptions and guesses. rolleyes Lots of time on my hands...

Any thoughts though? I'm curious.

Well after reading your message i had no time to respond immediately and perhaps that is a good thing because i likely would have said a whole lot without making any point, i was inspired later that day and wrote a bunch of stuff on a piece of paper most of which i wont use. now i too may be guilty of a similar offense but i seems that you are attacking something yet im not sure what it is, at one point i thought that you might be trying to discredit me but i dont think that is the issue. you seems to have something against analysis and as you pointed out you paradoxically make this point through analysis. what i think that you are trying to put your finger on is the potential pointlessness of thought for thoughts sake, or the empty life of an intelligitsa, but im not even sure why you attempted to make this point. you also seem to think that someone is bored, uninteresting, confused and lonely, yet im not sure who you are directing that towards, regardless those are merely matters of perspective. a bored person who is engaged in activity is no longer bored, uninteresting is always a matter of opinion, and who isn't a little lonely and confused sometimes, if you are not then you probably should be.
another point you half heartedly make is against, perhaps, the ideal of being articulate? and for a superficial awareness. i would have to agree that many people perhaps are better of with only knowing the basics of how to live rather than being distressed about the immensity of life. but i find life more fulfilling when i view it as an endless source of awe and wonder and an immense mystery which i have little hope of completely knowing. people who think that they know everything because they have a grasp of the superficial realm may be successful in the world yet they are often unhappy and pained by stress and prematurely aged by an ebbing amount of vitality, though there are seeming exceptions. regardless the happy unexamined life might be a baseless myth, ignorance is only a momentary bliss, the only real bliss is through awareness.
i feel and think that expression is one of mans greatest gifts. a superficial use of it churns out crappy emo-bands but a true diligence and disciplined approach produces authors and poets revered decades and century's after their deaths. how many musicians have been forgotten in a matter of years while you think consider that over a hundred years ago Emily Dickenson and R.W. Emerson were writing timeless reflections that are still read by seekers and intelligent people today. it is true analysis can separate us from the experience of life but it can also bring us into a great awareness and i do not believe that there is a time to stop and put away our tools of reflection and awareness.
if you want to read more about a similar subject read the matrix thread or this excellent book available online:
http://sacred-texts.com/hin/gsoy/index.htm
good day

I'm not directing it toward your statements, right. I'm just picking at my brain which has formed this weak conviction through my friends, myself, and books I've read. It's simply an existentialistic train of thought. I related that to this thread because it's "Who am I?" as in through the process of existentialism you reveal the "am I".

I sometimes feel that the searching, the enlightenment of any correlations of facts is just calling existence as a whole something just with a different name. We're just seeing it a different way. Perhaps to learn is actually the converse of understanding life in some cases.

Another thing about analysis though is that the more words you spend on articulating a concept, the more loopholes it sends out. If we spoke in paragraphs to one another for all of time, we could expound upon it for just about that entire length of period in time.

I've got a bit more to say, I'll come back. Gotta pick a friend up for her birthday.  

[AbrAbraxas]

it is true, in trying to express what i feel and know within i have often found myself dancing circles with words without saying anything for certain. words in themselves have great power in the realm of our lives but no definite reality in the larger scheme but i feel it is necessary to weed out the things that have made their way into our beings without our permission, sometimes before we had the power to give permission, sometimes through our habits, through the words of others, through the media who for the most part isnt concerned about our personal growth or integrity, especially advertising. sometimes real growth is achieved by unlearning rather than learning. these are some of the things that i have been trying to say. you are right in saying that sometimes the effort in philosophy or thought is a practice of self delusion, but in other times it is the only thing that we can do to strengthen ourselves and protect ourselves from the assault of suggestions and influences outside of us that want us to be soft malleable consumer robots and rigid social work wheels.

it could be said that who we are is a synthesis between what we want to be and what our environment wants to make us, and in this it really matters what you tune into. do you choose to tune into social groups, whatever their bent might be, that is for, against or indifferent to establishment, or tune into a deeper nature, god, spirit, higher self, archetypal realms, or what ever you want to seek or call it.

you mention existentialism and from my little studies into it i know that they love analysis and near irrelevant rationalizations. as a personal practice it can be very useful to examine fully your own motives and the consequences of the way you think and live but if you are not fully open and fully honest it is a practice in wordplay.
good day
hope to hear more soon