|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nileregwen DoUrden Captain
|
 Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:21 pm
Here's the breakthrough topic!
I'm currently working on my first of the breakthroughs...
Also, I'm going to index breakthroughs in this first post!
Here's an example (and the first): 2/1.
2 is the post number and 1 is the page that the post is on.
INDEX:
2/1 - The Relationship Between Thranduil & Celeborn - Nileregwen Do'Urden
9/1 - The Ancestory Line of Haldir, Marchwarden of Lothlorien - Nileregwen Do'Urden
heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:23 pm
First off, you all will need to have this chart handy to see what I am getting at and the like... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v383/LegolasLover2003/LOTR Characters/ALLELVES.jpgAlright, now to start off with how I think this and all my backup info on it. I believe that Thranduil & Celeborn... Are Cousins!Here's why... ~~~ When I picked up the library copy of "The Tolkien Companion" by J.E.A. Tyler, I wanted to see what it said about the great Elvenking. Turning to page 477, I read his bio. It stated, 'Thranduil A Lord of the Sindar and a kinsman of Celeborn of Lothlorien, and for at least two Ages of the World the Elven-king of Northern Mirkwood; his realm lay between the Forest River and the north-eastern eaves of the forest itself. It has been recorded that Thranduil journeyed eastward across the Misty Mountains during the first part of the Second Age, after he and Celeborn had left their homes in Harlindon (South Lindon), together with a retinue of Grey-elves...'Now, this struck me as odd. I had never heard of Celeborn and Thranduil going anywhere together. It is true that I had remembered that Thranduil made his kingdom in Greenwood the Great because he wanted to be seperate from Celeborn and the Elves of Lorien, but I had never heard that they were kinsmen. If you then turn to page 84, you find the entry for Celeborn. Part of it is as such: 'Celeborn 'Silver-tree' (Sind.) During the Elder Days, a Grey-elven lord and kinsman of King Thingol Greycloak. He later wedded the Lady Galadriel, afterwards becoming Lord of Lothlorien...' It goes on to say, 'At the beginning of the Second Age Celeborn dwelled in Lindon (last remnant of Beleriand), later travelling to Eregion with Galadriel, most noble of the High-Elven Exiles. When Eregion fell, Galadriel and Celeborn - and his kinsman Thranduil - passed east over the Misty Mountains to establish realms among the Silvan Elves of the forests far away. Thranduil took the northern part of Greenwood the Great for his kingdom; Celeborn and Galadriel passed further south to the ancient Elf-realm Lorien, known also as Laurelindorenan.'So, here I am thinking that this is all one big typo, because I know that none of the dwellings in Lindon looked like Thranduil's palace. However, that's when I pulled out my trusty, "The Atlas of Middle-earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad. I figure out that Eregion is actually what Lindon was latter called. Lindon was Ossiriand, which was just West of the Ered Luin (Blue Mountains). But I had thought that Celeborn started out in Lindon and later moved to Eregion... how could they be the same thing? This, I think is conflicting. If you flip to page 107 in the Atlas, you find the section called "Thranduil's Caverns". This gave me yet another hint, saying; ' The Elvenking was Thranduil, who once had lived with Thingol and Melian, so his dwellings were understandably reminiscent of both Menegroth and Nargothrond: All lay under wooded hill beside a river, with a stone bridge leading to the great gates; all had a great pillard hall used as a throne room, and many twisting passages leading to other rooms of varying sizes at different levels; all had been enhanced by the mining efforts of Dwarves. Thranduil’s dwelling was different in two ways: Although extensive, it seems to have been somewhat smaller than the great ancient underground kingdoms; and it had an underground stream.' So, with the knowledge that Thranduil lived with Thingol, I decided to go and look up Thingol on "The Encyclopedia of Arda" (or EA, can be found at http://www.glyphweb.com/arda) to try and find out just who else might have lived with Thingol. According to EA, Thingol was first called Elwe and he had two brothers, Olwe and Elmo. Then, the most interesting thing popped up. Under Elmo on EA it said; 'The younger brother of Elu Thingol of the Sindar and Olwë of the Teleri; he dwelt in Doriath with his elder brother Thingol, and is said to have been the ancestor of Celeborn, Lord of Lórien.'So I was suddenly like, "Well... at least I know who Celeborn is related to..." But that still didn't completely answer my Thranduil question. So, I pieced all these people together using EA and eventually, it just kinda looked right. It's never said who Olwe's descendants are and, if Thranduil and Celeborn are supposed to be "kinsmen" then they should be closely related. Like... cousins perhaps? I mean, all Hobbits are related, right? But Sam wouldn't call Frodo his kinsman. Pippin would, because they are... once more... cousins! Anyway, I may not have answered completely how old Legolas is, or who Legolas' mother was. But I have successfully shown that there is a very good possibility that Legolas and Aragorn are related, through the brothers Thingol and Olwe. I've also shown that Legolas is related to the Elves of Lorien, mainly Celeborn, from the brothers Olwe and Elmo. Also, here are a couple more things that help my ideas. First off... Thranduil does not like the Noldor Elves (Sons of Finwe mostly). When Gil-Galad wished for the Elves of Greenwood the Great to help fight in The Last Alliance of Elves and Men, Thranduil was reluctant. Gil-Galad is a descendant of Finwe through Fingolfin then Fingon. Why, do you ask, does Thranduil not like the Noldor? Well, the sons of Feanor (who was a son of Finwe) killed Dior, the son of Beren and Luthien (Luthien being the daughter of Thingol), all over a Silmaril. Also, what I found interesting, is that Celeborn rules Lorien and Thranduil Mirkwood. This may not seem odd normally, but when you consider that if one was descended from Elmo and the other Olwe, Kings in their own right, then it would only be natural for Celeborn and Thranduil to have a royal bloodline from their ancestors. The only thing I thought was weird, was that there's very little mention of Oropher. It's said that he was with Thranduil when Greenwood the Great was established, and Oropher lead the armies of Greenwood in the Last Alliance (which his son, Thranduil, had been against) and that he was slain there. But that's all that is ever said about him. Lastly, Legolas HAS to be related to Thingol in some way (and this I've known for a long time) because he is a Sindar Elf. Even though he says he is Silvan, both Thranduil and Oropher are Sindar, which leads me to believe that Thranduil married a Silvan Elf and thus Legolas was born. Anywho, I hope I cleared this up for a few people... but I really do think that Thranduil and Celeborn are related and thus... perhaps... I have proven my point. 'Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.' -Celeborn ( "The Lord of the Rings": pg. 346) heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nileregwen DoUrden Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:11 pm
It is possible that the term "kinsman was used to reffer Thranduil as Celeborn's traveling companion, or really good friend if you would like. This is just me opinion, because the only other relation between the both of them that I see is that they are both Elves; and therefore have the same back ground from long ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 1:19 pm
Eleanorkeyheart It is possible that the term "kinsman was used to reffer Thranduil as Celeborn's traveling companion, or really good friend if you would like. This is just me opinion, because the only other relation between the both of them that I see is that they are both Elves; and therefore have the same back ground from long ago. It is true that they would both have the same background, for it would be true that all Elves are related. However, when you think about it, they rarely use the word "kinsman" lightly. It would be quite a different story if they had not referenced Celeborn as closely and as particularly as they did. Picking him out of a handful of Elves that Thranduil might have traveled with seems a bit too concidental. Also, there is the quote from Celeborn himself, when speaking to Legolas in Lothlorien, that adds added credence to the idea that the word "kinsman" (or in this case "kindred") is more than it simply appears. Although J.R.R. Tolkien never actually said who Legolas or Thranduil or Oropher were descended from, their looks, being similar to Celeborn's, could be an added line to their relation. Of course, then one would have to point out that Peter Jackson took liberties in hair color, for Legolas was never said to have fair or dark hair. However, the Elves of the Noldor were said to have dark hair (at least as far as Elrond and his children go, if I remember correctly) and thus I would think most Noldor would sport a darker hair pigment. Of course, this isn't correct either due to Galadriel's light hair... so who can say for sure. All I know, if that from the research I have done, and the conclusion of a few of my points and ideas, if that it is highly possible that Celeborn and Thranduil were cousins through Olwe and Elmo. Usually, I have found, where Legolas is concernered, there is no definites. His age and his family tree are all but mysteries, unless you look deep into Tolkien's works. For an example, I agree with a man who wrote that Legolas is probably closer to the age of 500-800 than the 3,000 he was in the films (which is actually the age for Elladan and Elrohir). You can read more about that at my website... http://www.angelfire.com/or3/mirkwood/Main.htmlBut as I said, where Legolas Thranduilion is concerned, very little is definite. heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nileregwen DoUrden Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:07 pm
I am sorry, I had to write that last post in a hurry.
Yes I agree with you, but as was leaving the library last night, and I was thinking, "The word 'kinnsman' means "relitive" yes, but it also means "A man with the same background, or cultural as another" which made me think of the Hobbits. I do recall them using the term as well, and it makes sence because they are not just related; they were travel partners of the same race, and background."
About the hair-color thing. Legolas, the elves of Mirkwood, and Lothlorien are elves from the clan Teleri, not the Noldor, which makes them the "Silvan Elves". And if you look at all the Elves in Lothlorien, for example (because we the only time we are in Mirkwood, in the books, is in the Hobbit) they all have either gold, or silver hair. So in my opinion it would only make sence if he had light colored hair; but once again, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong; I do not truly know what Tolkien intended for the Mirkwood elves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:54 am
I do agree about the hair color thing, though many will still argue that Legolas was dark haired.
With the kinsman thing, yes, the Hobbits did use it, but if you look closer at the Hobbits, they were truly kinsmen. They were all related one way or another, and not as distantly as the Elves no doubt were.
Apparently, the only Hobbit not directly related was Samwise. However, I can understand why Frodo would consider him a kinsman. Sam and Frodo were very close friends. However, if you look at Thranduil and Celeborn, The Elvenking did not think of those in Lorien as friends. In fact, that was partially why even Lothlorien and Eryn Lasgalen exists as seperate kingdoms. Thranduil wanted to be farther away from Lorien, meaning that I do not think he would consider them as close friends of his kingdom. I dare to speculate that Thranduil would have called on their aid as a last, life or death, resort.
As for getting back to the Hobbits...
Peregrin and Meriadoc are cousins, for Pippin was the son of Paladin II and Merry the son of Esmeralda. Paladin II and Esmeralda were brother and sister from Adalgrim.
Frodo is related to them through his mother Primula and her mother Mirabella. Mirabella was the sister to Hildigrim who was the father of Adalgrim who was the father of both Paladin II and Esmeralda from whom came Pippin and Merry.
They are also related a second way, from the Baggins line instead of the Line of the Brandybucks or the Tooks.
Frodo was the son of Drogo who was the son of Fosco who was the son of Largo who was the brother of Ponto who was the father of Rosa Baggins who married Hildigrim Took who was the father of Adalgrim who was the father of both Paladin II and Esmeralda from whom came Pippin and Merry.
So you see... Hobbits are related in many many ways, especially within the Brandybuck, Took, and Baggins lines.
And technically, later on, Samwise was related to them all by blood, though through his children, since Sam's daughter Goldilocks married Pippin's son Faramir Took.
It actually appears that Rose's family and Samwise's family was not related to the Brandybucks, Tooks, or Baggins. At least, according to the charts in the appendicies. They may have been through some relative that Tolkien failed to mention.
Anyway...
The point of that was to show the two distinction between a kinsman (family member) and a kinsman (friend / companion).
I still stand by Thranduil and Celeborn being related, simply because of Mirkwood's limited contact and seperation, not to mention even moving farther north, of Lorien.
heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nileregwen DoUrden Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:17 am
I have been thinking about this again, and I have come to consider (by reading, and watching a few things about it) that the term "Kinsman" was used because they are from the "Teleri Clan". They were both from the same clan; as two people from Egypt would say that the other was their "kinsman".
That is the only logical explanation for that word being used; because if Tolkien had intended for Celeborn and Thranduil to be related in some way (other then them both being elves) he would have put that in the family trees that he created. That is were I am at a loss anyway, because if they are related, then there is no way of knowing how, because they both come from different lines on the family tree. Anyway, it would only make sense that the word was used just to emphasize that they are (and traveled together)from the same clan.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:38 am
This reply won't be as long because I'm kinda busy with housework right now.
So, onto the subject at hand...
Thranduil and Oropher split off from the Sindar of Lorien out of differing opinions and such. They were angry with those of Lorien, mainly with Celeborn and Galadriel and the encroachment on their lands.
Also, as another note, Thranduil's halls are far too akin to Thingol's to have been designed by one who did not live within Thingol's palace itself which, I believe, at least Oropher did. The only ones who would have lived within that palace would have been the royal family, a few servants perhaps, and the King's kin. I highly doubt that Thranduil and Oropher would have been any other than kin to the King via his brother, simply because of the noble blood within their veins.
Look at it this way...
Thranduil rules his realm, a land fallen into darkness under the shadow of Dol Guldur, without the aid of a Ring of Power. Only one of kingly or noble birth could have done such a feat and, since he is not related to one of the Noldor, the only kingly Sindar whom I am familiar with (though I am sure there is another which I forget... I'm distracted by the dog growling and can't really recall at the moment) is Thingol.
heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nileregwen DoUrden Captain
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nileregwen DoUrden Captain
|
Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:44 pm
My most recent breakthrough came while eating a parmesian chicken sandwich at Subway...
Odd, but true.
I was looking over my David Salo book, trying to prep myself to write my Linguistics paper on the Phonology, Mutations, and Plurals of Sindarin, when I decided to see if Haldir's name was in the Sindarin Names portion of the book.
It was!
But to my surprise... It had Haldir's father's name!
So, without further adieu, here is Haldir's lineage!
Haldir, and his brothers Rumil and Orophin, are the sons of Arothir, who was the son of Angrod.
Angrod was the King of Nagothrond and the elder brother of Galadriel, as well as the son of Finarfin.
Finarfin was one of the sons of Finwe, from his second marriage.
Finwe was the first High King of the Noldor and the father of Feanor, from his first marriage.
Thus, Haldir is a direct descendant of Finwe, just as Galadirel.
Oddly enough, if you look back upon my past breakthrough, where I discussed the possibility of Legolas being a descendant from Thingol's family line, this would make Haldir and Legolas cousins... of a sort.
I mean, Galadriel is a great aunt to Haldir, but since Celeborn is married to Galadriel and Celeborn would be a cousin of Thranduil, thus, by marriage relations, Haldir and Legolas would be distant cousins.
Is it just me, or are Hobbits and Elves, in their lineage, getting more and more similar?
But anywho... my breakthrough just now is focused on Haldir, because this shows that the Marchwarden of Lothlorien is much more than a mere warrior.
heart
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
