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Ysta and Lyshev

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Rimbaum

PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:20 pm


Okay, so I've had a file sitting around on my hard drive for a little while, and I find it again, and see inspiration. I ended up writing a whole EIGHT paragraphs in addition to what was already there, completing an actual chapter of fairly decent length.

There might be some stylistic changes about halfway through, though I kinda expect that. I also type stuff up in Notepad because MSWord has a habit of killing my computer as of late, so I'm also expecting a random typo here and there, no matter how much I try to avoid them. But what I'm really looking for is opinions and critique on the overall style, and how to minimize the impact of a style change when I've left something to sit for too long on my hard drive xp

Before I begin: yes, it does have Lyshev. No, it is not in any way currently related to any 'canon' storyline I have going with him and Seishak. I started this as a way to look into Kresari culture, and since Lyshev was my original Kresari character (by only half), I decided to see how someone with his circumstances would be accepted by a caravan 3nodding

Quote:
"Ysta! Get your head out of the clouds, boy, and pay attention to your work!" His mother's sharp, commanding voice and the riding crop that hit him on the shoulder made the teenaged boy jump. "I know that look, boy. Stop staring at the girls and get back to work."

In a hurry to comply with his mother's orders, Ysta swept back his dark hair and resumed his previous task - repairing the wheel to his family's cart. His father, with a broken arm and told by the healer to stay inside as much as possible, couldn't do it, and the caravan would be moving on in a couple of days. So, as the only other man in the cart, it was his job to do the repairs.

After another few hours of making sure everything was just right, he set the wheel back on the cart, trying not to jar anything too much and wake his father. With his chores finished, he could finally go and really admire the person he was staring at before.

Unlike what his mother had thought, Ysta did not really fancy the girls his own age; it didn't matter that the girls were forbidden to him. In fact, the man he had been admiring for the past several days was nearly his father's age, but still unmarried and quite handsome.

Lyshev - the outsider that was allowed to stay because of his Kresari blood. With his honey-blonde hair and unique hazel eyes, many people admired his looks from afar, but waited for him to prove himself. In Ysta's mind, the blonde had already done just that, by daring to take the challenge presented to him without fuss or complaint. He only proved himself further with each leering harassment of his handiwork, using the derision to fix even the smallest of mistakes and create a true masterpiece. Ysta wondered if his kinsmen realized what they were really driving the outsider to do.

By now, the outsider's cart was nearly finished - devoid only of the personal touches that marked it as belonging to Lyshev Kirrith... and whomever he chose to marry in time. "It looks very nice. You did a good job," Ysta said quietly, approaching the older man with some caution. He'd seen the blonde easily lifting things he and his father had trouble with even together, so it was clear that this outsider was no pushover.

Slightly startled by the boy's approach, Lyshev turned around to see who was talking. He gave a kind smile and just nodded slightly. "Thank you. I only hope I can help contribute to the rest of the caravan," he replied, sitting down and stripping off his shirt.

Ysta stared for a moment, unable to help himself when he saw how well-built the man was up close. If Lyshev even noticed, he gave no mention to it. "I'm sorry, I don't know your name, but I've seen you around a lot and I feel like I should know," the blonde said amiably after a moment of studying the boy.

"My name is Ysta Ashkuril. You're Lyshev Kirrith... My dad knew your grandparents," the dark-haired boy blurted out, feeling like an idiot the instant he did so.

Instead of chastising Ysta, though, the tall man leaned closer with an interested air. "Really? My mother never talked about my grandparents. I wish I'd known them."

The two talked for hours, right up until sunset, when Ysta's mother called for his help in making dinner. "It's nice to have someone to talk to, Ysta. You can come by anytime."

"Thank you," the young teenager smiled, leaving the blonde to cook and eat his own dinner alone. Having grown up with people around him at all times, all of whom willing to help him and keep him entertained, the thought of being alone triggered a deep sense of pity for the outsider. How awful it must be to live alone, even among so many people, and to be constantly harassed simply because you weren't born among them.

The feeling passed as Ysta helped his mother prepare their food. He hoped that the child his mother was pregnant with would be a girl, so that he didn't have to help with so much of the domestic work in their family. Domestic jobs belonged to the women; Ysta should be out helping the men in hunting parties, not assisting his mother in cleaning the kills that were brought back.

During their dinner, Ysta's father brought up a sudden change in the conversation. "Ysta, I think you should consider being abashyan." The unexpected announcement nearly caused the teenager to choke on his stew, but he managed to swallow and stare at his father.

"What? Why?" The Kresari tradition of abashyan was meant to keep boys his own age from causing a pregnancy out of wedlock by attaching them to older, unmarried men in a steady relationship. Although many outsider cultures looked at the abashyan couples as perverts of nature, it did work. Still, Ysta hadn't thought his father would be pushing him to start a relationship with an older man.

"You're a young man now, with a man's urges. Your mother saw you looking at the girls earlier, and I think it's time you learned how to have a steady relationship with someone else before you marry."

That did explain it. Ysta nodded, drinking some more stew from the shallow bowl in his hands in an attempt to keep his expression neutral. Although the thought of having a relationship with an older man - either sexual or otherwise - appealed to him, the matter still remained of beginning the abashyan.

An older man couldn't simply approach a boy Ysta's age and request to become abashyan. Even in Kresari culture, it was considered taboo for a man more than a few years older than a teenager himself to take such a marked interest in having a largely sexual relationship with one. The younger partner had to initiate the relationship, and would ultimately be the one to end it as well.

Ysta knew who he wanted to be abashyan with, but the matter still remained of asking him in the first place. On top of his own nervousness was the fact that Lyshev was not fully accepted by the rest of the group, and Ysta might be partially shunned by the people he'd grown up with by initiating the relationship. It wasn't an easy decision, and it didn't have to be made... but it was what Ysta wanted.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:19 am


The end feels a bit like an info dump... er... I'm not sure how to fix that. Then again, it's 2am, so... I'll get back to you on that, shall I?

Make sure these folks have really low infant mortality rates, or the whole male companionship thing will seem amazingly anachronistic. You've probably got that covered all ready, but... just making sure.

I'll do a more in-depth critique, but as I said, it's 2 am. I need to sleep now.

ElviraMadigan


erikakaiser
Vice Captain

Dapper Inquisitor

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:51 pm


It's exceptionally hard to critique style, although I can tell you straight off the cure for style changes is to just re-write the whole thing so it matches. You do tell instead of show a lot, like saying Ysta is "feeling like an idiot the instant he did so" when talking to Lyshev -- why does he feel like an idiot? And you have the scarce beginnings of a conversation between Lyshev and Ysta, then you quickly jump to saying that they talked for hours, which feels like something of a cop out. Not that I want all of the details of their small talk, either, but there's probably a different angle to take it from.

I realize, of course, this is just a blib and all that, but you're setting up a situation that's rather boring because it really lacks conflict: Ysta has a crush on Lyshev, and after several paragraphs, Ysta gets to have a relationship with Lyshev. There wasn't that much to keep me interested.

Plus, things like Lyshev taking off his shirt just seem kind of blatant to me: I realize you write yaoi, of course, but ... ehh, I don't know, I'm biased because I dislike romance or erotica as genres.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:27 pm


I disagree with the whole thing lacking conflict - there's still plenty of conflict that can yet happen. Just because Ysta can have a relationship with Lyshev (and actually is being pushed into a relationship period) doesn't mean he's ready for it. Internal conflict, Erika. Internal conflict can make the world go round.

As for saying instead of showing, in this case: Kresari don't let on weaknesses, as a general rule. Showing someone that you feel stupid for having said or done something means that it wasn't good enough in the first place and you know it - letting the other person tell you is proper etiquette. Of course, rather than risking more of an infodump than I'm already teetering on in the end of this, I'd rather show it through actions later.


The shirt-removing was blatant service for Ysta, but I tried to be realistic: if a guy has been doing moderate physical labor, it might not be enough for him to want to remove the shirt during the task (especially not in Lysh's case), but he most likely wouldn't want to keep a sweat-stained shirt on when he's trying to cool off and relax. Also, because Lyshev keeps in good shape, it's natural for him to have a nice body. It just causes more internal conflict for Ysta. whee



Blah. Enough explaining. I don't try to explain everything away, because I honestly do listen and try to incorporate legitimate concrit into stuff I've asked for it on. But the explaining is as much for my benefit as just telling people XD; it forces me to think about why I put something there in the first place, and if there's a better way to pull off what I did. I'll let this sit for a few days, look it over, and see what I can do to it to ultimately make it better.

Rimbaum


erikakaiser
Vice Captain

Dapper Inquisitor

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:35 pm


I know what internal conflict is, thanks, but I'm not seeing that in this situation either. You've explained the internal conflict you want, but from reading that I did not really experience any of it. You have it piled into the end paragraph.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:02 am


erikakaiser
I know what internal conflict is, thanks, but I'm not seeing that in this situation either. You've explained the internal conflict you want, but from reading that I did not really experience any of it. You have it piled into the end paragraph.


Duly noted. Chances are, it's going to have to be redone due to style changes anyways, so I'll try making it more pronounced. 3nodding It's just... been too long since I've really had a chance to do any decent writing (aside from the Victorian Illness snippets), so I'm kinda rusty and trying to get back into it.


._. maybe I should work on something with no relation to previously established characters (like Lyshev) for a while before coming back to this.

Rimbaum


Kita-Ysabell

Distinct Conversationalist

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:14 pm


As promised, a more in-depth critique while I wait for my roommate to get done with classes so I ask about Halloween decorations. This is gonna be a bit nitpicky,as my brain is still a bit dead (all that staying up 'till 2 am) and MS Word might pick up on some of it, but not all.

Quote:
and the riding crop that hit him on the shoulder


This might be better stated as 'and the sting of a riding crop on his shoulder,' because he's not really reacting to the object, but rather the physical feeling it causes. Just being nitpicky.

Quote:
"I know that look, boy. Stop staring at the girls and get back to work."

In a hurry to comply with his mother's orders, Ysta swept back his dark hair and resumed his previous task

Unlike what his mother had thought, Ysta did not really fancy the girls his own age; it didn't matter that the girls were forbidden to him. In fact, the man he had been admiring for the past several days was nearly his father's age, but still unmarried and quite handsome.


... And here's where we have fun with anthropology and psychology. I see that you're trying to set up a believable same-sex relationship. You get points for that, and lots of 'em. However, this is a little reminder that in a small society with a limited gene pool, compulsory heterosexuality is still the name of the game. Viewing members of one's own sex in the same way that one is expected to view members of the opposite sex is still a huge taboo, and Ysta (unless he's a sociopath or has had extensive exposure to another culture) needs to respond accordingly. It seems you've done this to some degree, but it'd be nice if it was clearer. See more below.

Also- at this point, my thoughts were "aw, s**t, the kid's gonna get stoned to death or somethin'." This would be a good place to start introducing the information from below, both to break that up and to avoid the basic assumption that same sex relationships are strictly taboo in cultures such as the one that seems to be presented here.

Quote:
Lyshev - the outsider that was allowed to stay because of his Kresari blood.


This is a sentence fragment. Either add 'it was' at the begining of the sentence, or take out the 'that'.

Quote:
...but waited for him to prove himself. In Ysta's mind, the blonde had already done just that, by daring to take the challenge presented to him without fuss or complaint. He only proved himself further with each leering harassment of his handiwork, using the derision to fix even the smallest of mistakes and create a true masterpiece. Ysta wondered if his kinsmen realized what they were really driving the outsider to do.


I would like to see this more evenly strung together as a series of cause and effect reltionships. As such:

Cause: Lyshev is considered an outsider to the culture
Effect: Other members of the culture require that he prooves himself before accepting him. Therefore they treat him... either with true derision or by challenging him to achieve more. That's unclear and it's fine if it remains unclear.
Effect: For whatever reasons, Lyshev is fueled by their treatment to put effort into his work.
Effect: Ysta respects Lyshev for this effort.

They don't have to be in order, just be sure that they're clear. It will sound more cohesive.

Quote:
using the derision to fix even the smallest of mistakes and create a true masterpiece


I'd really like to know exactly how Lyshev reacts to the given prompt. As if it were a personal challenge? As if he were submitting to their judgement of him? Stoicly, as if he were doing paperwork? This is a major character point, and it really affects how the rest of the selection is read.

Quote:
Instead of chastising Ysta, though, the tall man leaned closer with an interested air. "Really? My mother never talked about my grandparents. I wish I'd known them."

The two talked for hours,


Here's that awkward "zoom out and cut to time lapse sequence" bit. Maybe adding a bit of Ysta's reply, along with a clear indicator of the begining of a conversation, would make it smoother.

Quote:
leaving the blonde to cook and eat his own dinner alone. Having grown up with people around him at all times, all of whom willing to help him and keep him entertained, the thought of being alone triggered a deep sense of pity for the outsider.


Either show that Ysta regrets leaving Lyshev alone, and that triggers his contemplation, or separate the above into two separate paragraphs. As it is, there's no reason to have them together.

[quoteThe feeling passed as Ysta helped his mother prepare their food.

This sounds a bit as if Ysta's justified Lyshev being alone to himself, and given his cultural background, that seems unlikely. It would be more... consistent if he forgot.

After this point, it seems as if you've got two major dilemmas:

1. Trying to convey a significant body of cultural information without making it sound like an info dump.

2. Trying to "show not tell" in a society of stoics.

The first one can be fixed to some degree by spreading the information out. This will also keep your readers from making incorrect assumptions about your society- I for one had my ***** beating stick all at the ready. When an issue pops up or it would be useful to know something that is said later, take the opertunity to mention it. When you're done with that, you can go back over the end and see if there's any bits you can simplify or eliminate.

This one will help with both- keep in mind that, while the narration is technically in third person, it's still Ysta narrating. How exactly would this character aproach this issue? Remember that thinking is an action, and that even a total stoic will actively respond to a situation when thinking, because it's a private action. People don't just hesitate or backtrack when talking, they do it when they're thinking, too.

And finally, while I absolutely abhore the dependence upon Freud in literature, his methods of self-censorship are still important (not to mention bloody useful) when considering a character's reaction to something. Repress, displace, and sublimate! Although, for your genre, you might want to explain what you're doing.

One more thing- to help with the info dump at the end, and heighten the sense of internal conflict, you could have Ysta analyze the social implications of his decision at the end, and not have him come to such a clear conclusion. If you've ever read 'Queen Bees and Wannabees,' that's a pretty good introduction to analyzing group dynamic.

Oh, damn. I now have the urge to write a Schoolhouse Rock style song about 'repress, displace, sublimate'. It's a bit more complecated than that, but... aahh. xp
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