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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:07 pm
I hate making long drawn out posts, so I'm trying to keep things short and simple. This is a guide for individuals to learn how to be Devil's Advocates.
What is a devil's advocate? An devil's advocate is one who argues against a cause or position either for the sake of argument or to help determine its validity. For example, "My role in the campaign is to play devil's advocate to each new policy before it's introduced to the public." This term comes from the Roman Catholic Church, where advocatus diaboli (Latin for "devil's advocate") signifies an official who is appointed to present arguments against a proposed canonization or beatification. It was transferred to wider use in the mid-1700s.
In short if you are a devil's advocate your job is find faults stuff and fight against things like the status quo. You must question the reasoning and the logic against or for a cause. The job of the devil's advocate is to bring another view point and to act as a safeguard.
Feel free to ask questions or add strategies and tactics you want.
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:20 pm
I'll add more later but for now I'm on a mission. Next time I have some downtime or we complete our mission (what ever comes first) I'll post more. As long we/I am not killed.
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New_challenger_approaches
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Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:00 am
I have always enjoyed playing devil's advocate and have a bit of advice. Regardless of your position on a subject, you should always research all sides of an issue before making any statement. you can make a fool of yourself if you don't. If you don't llike it when people play devil's advocate, you should try to predict and address/refute their arguments when you state your own opinion. Not only do help strengthen your position, you also appear more intelligent and well versed. As for those who like taking on the role of the devil's advocate, you have to be willing to risk reputation damage as a result of voicing unpopular opinions. While people shouldn't take arguments against their claims personally and should realize you're just pointing out arguments against/flaws of their position because they exist, but they often assume you personally disagree with them and may take offense. You don't need to believe in the validity of the unpopular position when playing devil's advocate, you just need to point out its existance.
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:14 pm
True, sometimes it is a hard job but I love it. If given the right reasons and info I can have a fight with myself, lol . I often play devil's advocate in own mind when I have to make choices about my life. If there is something I really want I'll sometimes form a last of all the pros and cons. Then I take the side of devil's advocate against myself to make sure that the things I want is worth it.
In the last guild Twilightringwraith and I had a small fun debate to show practical example of a devil's advocate can be late.
The thing is a devil's advocate doesn't needs facts, he/she just need things that are true or have sound reasoning and logic behind it.
In the old guild this is the example I give.ArchWarrior Lets say you are a devil's advocate against schools getting more money for newer equipment and pay raises for teachers. You know the other side are going to try and say that newer equipment is a must for safety and learning purposes. So you need to think up an argument against it.
"I don't think schools should get money for newer equipment because we don't need newer equipment. The equipment we have now works just fine for want we need. Plus I think the old equipment should stay because the old equipment has history. How many kids used that equipment and learned something new? How many generations past used that equipment? For some of you this is the same equipment that your parents and grandparents used. Do you really want to give up apart of your family history for some new equipment that'll be outdated within a few weeks?"
You see no facts in that statement other than that the equipment as old and the off chance that someone's family member used that very same equipment. Now what about better pay for teachers? You have to not only find a reason why not pay them more but also why we should pay them less.
"As the saying goes, "money is the root of all evil", I feel that if teachers got better pay than more people would seek jobs as teachers only for the money. By keeping the pay low you ensure that no one is teaching solely for financial gain. And therefor you are ensuring the quality of the teachers you have. In fact I think teachers should get less pay to them weed out more so we can get a even better quality of the teachers. Because those who don't leave are the ones who really love to teach. And therefor ensuring a better quality of students because the teachers are better. Meaning that the students will learn better raising the state of the school system and quality of the nation as well because those students are going to join the workplace and take the things they learned in school out into the real world with them."
Again I used no facts in that statement. Only the reasoning that money is not the answer for better schools, teachers, and students. For I did my role as a devil's advocate and that was to bring a logical counter argument that raises doubt against the thing I'm to be opposed too.
To be a good devil's advocate all you need to have is good logic and reasoning. You really don't need things like facts.
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:02 pm
My brother often asks me to play the part of devil's advocate. His last occasion was over him proposing. I appear to have failed as he is now married. How does one apply logic to somethig so illogical as emotions, especially love?
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:50 pm
simply you do not but at the same time you have to
i will elaborate when i feel like it if thats possible
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:25 pm
Magnus DeWinter My brother often asks me to play the part of devil's advocate. His last occasion was over him proposing. I appear to have failed as he is now married. How does one apply logic to somethig so illogical as emotions, especially love? You don't. Personally I would state the vast amounts of logical reason to not get married if I was in your case and avoid the emotional aspects. Things I would state would be the costs, relocation, and the loss of privacy, as well as other things I could think of at the time. And perhaps if you really want to use emotion in your argument, state that emotions can change, love can be lost, and a marriage based only on love end up in divorce due to other issues that come to be, the big one being money. Stating real life example of marriages you know of that ended in divorce would help, especially a couple related to him. Also you could say he is rushing things, and that if he truly loves her he can wait another week, month, or year, before getting married, and if he doesn't its lust and not love, even though using this point would be a low move.
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:51 am
Another chunk of advise. When DAing something, be cordial about it. That should go for debate in general, but I think there's a big tendancy particularly when DAing to do absolutely nothing but nitpick and have a very uncivil or criticizing tone. Granted, the point of DAing is to be critical, but there's a fine line between asking questions and coming off berating. Simply adding in phrases in discussion like "That's an interesting and valid point, but consider this..." before tearing what they said to shreds can make that difference. It keeps the debate on a more civil tone.
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:42 pm
Yes, please try to stay respectful (unless you are talking to a troll than fell free to flame like there is no tomorrow).
I on the other hand try to give credit where credit is do. Even if I'm fighting against someone if I feel they made a good point I let them know. Then I tar them the new one for trying to make me lose the argument. lol
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Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:24 pm
Some advice from personal experience:
Some people don't argue to have their point of view questioned, only for it to be strengthened by others. Most of the times it's easy to recognize this and as tempting as it is to step in, their minds are usually closed to criticism and will quickly move to anger. If you don't mind having things thrown at you either verbally or physically, refrain from adding any insightful comments or critique.
I'm actually not joking. In fact, by avoiding these arguments altogether, I find myself browsing the ED less and less.
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Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:30 am
[socrates] Some advice from personal experience: Some people don't argue to have their point of view questioned, only for it to be strengthened by others. Most of the times it's easy to recognize this and as tempting as it is to step in, their minds are usually closed to criticism and will quickly move to anger. If you don't mind having things thrown at you either verbally or physically, refrain from adding any insightful comments or critique. I'm actually not joking. In fact, by avoiding these arguments altogether, I find myself browsing the ED less and less. Wow, thats true. I feel the same way. Because it's true that the people who put out narrow-minded statement just for srength, attack at those who may have agood point against them...
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