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AriaStarSong

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:28 pm


I have yet another question about my delinquent school horses. I love them all to death, but there is always a reason that they are donated to our program.

The horse I'm working with right now is Corky. Corky is about 16.2ish hh, some kind of Irish draught cross (I think, might be Irish sporthorse, but he kind of seems like a draft cross), fairly young (don't know his actual age, I'd guess like, 8?) and used to be fox hunter. Apparently, he embarassed the huntsman (don't know the story more than that) and that's why he was donated to us. He is now learning the art of dressage. Corky is very strong, very hairy, and very anxious. When Corky gets nervous, Corky runs on his forehand. In the walk, in the trot, and especially in the canter. And Corky gets nervous a lot. We've been working really hard on this, and he's made a lot of progress. I've had some amazing rides on him in the last week, actually getting smooth transitions without him freaking out and running away. We recently switched him from a plain loose ring snaffle to a french link with the big round piece in the middle (I've heard them called so many things, it's easier to just describe them.) and he's much happier in the softer bit. He doesn't get nearly as defensive about his mouth as he did in his old bit. He is an extremely sensitive horse.

Now, the running away, the anxiety, the tension, all of that, I can deal with. What I don't know how to help is his habit of head tossind and rooting. The head tossing gets better as he relaxes, and I think that's the main cause for that, is he gets nervous in his frame (he's pretty fabulous when he gets it together, but can't hold it for very long), but the rooting I don't know how to help. He does it especially bad when I'm asking him to stretch, and seems to almost get worse when he's relaxed, which leads me to think that it's probably not part of his anxiety problems, but I could be wrong. Does anyone have any suggestions for ways that I can work to correct this behavior?

As a note, this is NOT my horse. I do not own him, and therefore have no control over his management. The vet on staff at our school does not believe in chiropractic (unfortunately). He is perfectly sound. I ride him 4 or 5 days a week, and he usually goes in two other lessons with other random people. I've been talking to my coach, and she's trying only put upper level riders on him for the sake of his training, but sometimes crappy rides happen either way. I know that there are a lot of management things that you can do to help calm a horse's anxious behavior, but please understand that I am limited in what I can/am allowed to do. Simple groundwork that I can do in a few minutes I can do, but I can't change his turnout schedule, what he's fed, etc.

I am taking him to a show this Sunday, we're doing Training level 1 & 2 and I'm hoping that the nice relaxed canter that we've had the past week will continue over the weekend. If this show goes well, my coach is hoping that he'll be ready for me to take him first level in the spring. He could be a really talented horse, he just gets really nervous and tends to fly away when that happens. He does better the more he gets to know you because he learns to trust you.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:58 pm


What is rooting? I've never heard that expression before.

Brat_and_a_half


CosmicCrystal

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:21 pm


Yeah, that is a new one on me. Is it maybe going behind the bit? Or putting his head down?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:46 pm


ah, sorry, my bad. It's an expression I've heard used both at home and while I'm at school, so I figured it was common across the west. Guess that's what I get for making assumptions. smile

Basically, he jerks his head downward and either pulls the reins out of my hands or pulls me forward out of the saddle. It's not always a huge motion, sometimes it's just a small downward jerk of the head, and I think it has something to do with avoiding the bit, but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it. There's a horse at my barn back home that does it on a small scale every other stride, but he's a completely different personality type than this horse. Regis is, for lack of a better term, a collosal, over-confident, a**. Corky has under-confident and nervous. I can't really address the problem in the same way on Corky that I would on Regis.

I think it's called rooting because of the way they throw their heads to the ground, it reminds people of pigs rooting for truffles or something. I don't really know.

So far my way of dealing with it has been just to bury my hands in his whithers when he starts it, so that he has something solid to run into, and putting my leg on to keep him moving forward, but that is kind of counter-productive on the slow, relaxed, and rhythmical goals for our rides. That and he can easily run at top speeds with his nose dragging in the dirt. He's a very sumissive horse, I've seen him do it in the pasture.

AriaStarSong


Brat_and_a_half

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:22 am


Haha, ok. My coach calls it "diving", kinda gives you the picture of the horses head diving into a pool or something, lol. I confused a few people before by saying that haha. I had that problem with Anna, but she had the personality type that I could just give her a kick, and she'd come back up, and she would only realllly pull me when I was being hard on her mouth. She did it a lot when I first started riding her and though was not new to going round, but still very green, and therefor not as sensitive as I should have been. With other more sensitive horses (and Anna when she's REALLY peppy) is to leg yeild or bend them or put them on some sort of lateral or bending movement. As you know, done correctly lateral movements make a horse use his whole body, and he has to come back to you and pay attention. If it's nervousness thats making him do this, this will help relax him and get his mind on something else. If it's resistance to the bit, it will make him work harder when her does grab the bit, which will make him rather just go straight. If it's resistnace or irritation to pressure, planting your hands isn't the greatest thing to do, because often horses will tend to just keep pulling.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:20 am


I'll try the lateral work idea, thanks. If they're pulling steadily, I won't plant my hands because, like you said, just gives them something to pull against, but when they're rooting or diving (whatever you want to call it) it's usually just a sudden jerk, and then they come back up to neutral. By planting my hands, it gives them something solid to run into, rather than my hands moving with them, and with a lot of horses, they'll learn not to do it because they're running into something themselves, rather than being hit by something. Kind of like if a horse runs into a fence, he's not going to be afraid of it the next time he walks by. But if he walks by and the fence jumps out and whacks him, good luck ever getting him near that fence again. Same concept. I don't want him to fear the bit, just not ram into it anymore.

But the lateral work makes sense. We've been working on improving his leg yeild, he tends to drag his haunches (like every other horse on the face of the planet?) so we've really been working on getting him to use his whole body and step through the movement, and his shoulders-in has been getting a lot better. I tried a couple steps of haunches-in/Travers a bit ago and he got it... but I think it was a little much to ask him at that point because he started worrying again. I know that I need to push him in order to progress, but if I lose his mind, then we go backwards, so it's a balancing act of finding tasks that are challenging, but not so demanding that he gets freaked out and stops thinking.

AriaStarSong


CosmicCrystal

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:54 am


My horse will do the rooting thing, but for him he is just being lazy, so a swift kick tells him to knock it off. But as you pointed out Corky seems to have a more difficult personality to work with. I agree with the lateral movements, i also think this horse sounds like the type that always needs something to do to keep his mind busy. (not a type I work well with because I like to zone out for several minutes at a time as we walk around =P) So I would suggest making sure there are lots of circles and reverses and pace changes while you are riding. Always give him something to think about so he can't make something up, or focus on something that is freaking him out.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:37 am


I spoke to my instructor about your problem, (I was curious myself biggrin ) and she said that she would switch his bit. I don't know if you can do that, but she would switch him to a pellum (sp?) My horse is in one, and he loves it. He is very sensitive to pulling, but in the pellum he doesn't try to escape the bit like he did in a snaffle. I don't know if you have control over his bit type, but give that a try. And if you do make sure you use two reins, not a converter, two reins gives you more softness and control. She said that if he likes it you should know right away.

Apparently there is a myth about pellums being for really high strung bad horses, or will turn them into such, (which I was not aware of because the horses we use them with are so well behaved) and she wanted me to dispel that for everyone. As I am sure you aware, if your horse is happy you are happy biggrin

She also was wondering if he does the same thing on the lunge line.

CosmicCrystal


AriaStarSong

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:01 pm


He's been getting a lot better these last few days, actually. Yay! Right now he does it the worst at the walk, and especially at the stretching walk. He does it other times, but not as frequently.

While we're schooling I try to keep him very busy, like you said CosmicCrystal, and it works really well not only for the rooting problem but also for his frantic tendencies. He tends to get in this "ohmygodohmygodohmygod" mindset and can't get himself out of it unless I change something up for him. Changing direction usually does the trick, which is why serpentines are our BEST friend. Transitions tend to get him more worried, but we're getting much better about that too. The only PROBLEM with this is that although it works wonders while schooling, we're showing Training level dressage. While at higher levels of dressage you and your horse are kept very busy, at training level, you're just riding lines and circles. Kind of boring actually, but he's far from ready for anything more. We need to be able to do a canter depart I think before we're ready for first level. But while we're riding through our test, if he starts to get frantic, I can't do a circle or change direction or I'll get an off course. So I'm trying to figure out ways to work through it as well as prevent it from happening.

And we actually just switched his bit from a regular loose ring snaffle to a double jointed snaffle. I can completely understand why your trainer would suggest switching to a bit like a pelham, and for a lot of horses, that would be very effective. However, because he's SO defensive about his mouth, a harsher, more definitive bit like a pelham would not be the best option for him. If he were my horse, and I could borrow a pelham from someone for a ride or two, I might try it, but because he's not, I don't really have that option. We can't have any of the school horses going in two reins either, because not everyone knows how to ride correctly with them. Also, I'm not entirely sure about the legality of pelhams in dressage competition... Something tells me they're not, but they might be.
So although I understand your trainer's reasoning, I don't believe it's the best option for this particular horse and situation. But thank you and her for the input! I can always keep it in the back of my brain for future horses!

And I've never lunged him. We don't lunge our horses on a regular basis unless they're specific project horses and are being lunged for a specific purpose, and then on specific people can lunge them. A lot of our horses have soundness problems that could be exacerbated by lunging, so we generally shy away from it. I've given a few lunge lessons, but we have to be really careful about who we use for those lessons, and Corky definitly is not a lunge lesson candidate. He's not really a "learning dressage" kind of lesson horse, it's more "learning how to deal with a less-than-perfect horse in dressage" kind of lesson horse. I love him to pieces though. smile He could be amazing one day, we just need to work out a few... kinks first. biggrin
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:03 am


There are tricks you can do in training level tests that the judge doesn't really see (or at least won't deminish your score AS much), that keeps your horse busy. Anna for example was tense in the walk and would prance, but only at meduim walk with contact, she was fine in free walk. So in the free walk where I had to go across the diagonal, a few feet before the wall, I would start leg yeilding her the rest of the way to the wall as I picked up the reins. And during the conner before trot I would ask her for a sloppy shoulder-fore, so all she was really doing was bending through the cornors, but to her, she was being worked and didn;t have time to think about prancing. It helped keep us above 4s for walk haha, with the occasional 6, when she didn't scream "LOOK AT ME DO ROLKUR WHEN U SHORTEN THE REINS AN INCH FROM A FREE WALK!!!" xp
At trot during a test if she was dragging on teh forehand, if I wasn't coming straight at or away from the judge, I'd ask for a shoulder fore again with just my leg and a little bit of my seat, but in the next half a stride, keep her straight haha. It's almost a little mean lol, confuse her to keep her up lol. I should have done first level, but my sitting trot wasn't solid enough on Anna to make me confident enough to do it infront of a judge. Canter was our best gait, (lots of 7s, and even a couple 8s!!!! 4laugh ) so I never needed any tricks for that.

Let us know how the show goes though!

Brat_and_a_half


CosmicCrystal

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:17 pm


Well I am glad Corky is doing better. We have actually found the pelham to be a softer bit, particularly for horses uptight about the bit because it allows you to soften your hands, but as you said, you have no control over that =P Anyway, good luck with the shows!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:27 pm


Hehe, I love those tricks! Shoulder-fore is my favorite IDA tool when I draw a horse that spooks. You can feel them starting to bunch when you're getting near the judges stand or the flags on the walls or something, and I just put them in a little bit of shoulder-fore and they're like "wait, what? now I can't go sideways!" it's awesome.
With Corky, our trot work is usually pretty good. He gets very excited about the canter and doesn't want to come back (getting better every day!) and in the walk he throws his head and jerks the reins out of my hands.

The show went really well. We did Training level 1&2. The first test was a little scary, I scored a 56.9% (ouch). He tried to run away a few times, was very worried about the fact that the horses (in the warm-up area) were so far away (on the other side of the fence) so he would race when we were going toward the judges stand, and slug along when we were going away. He also got unbalanced in our right lead canter and swapped leads behind. He'd never done that to me before, but when I talked to a friend of mine who also rides him a lot he said that he does it sometimes when he feels unbalanced or if you don't set him up for the transition enough. we got a 4 on that movement. Oops. Mostly 6s though, a couple 5s. Our collective remakrs said "Capable pair. Horse needs to accept bridle more readily. Learn to stretch into contact and not snatch it away from rider"
The second test was much better. We went and schooled downward transitions for a while, since we had a problem with that in the first test, and he got so that he was listening to my aids a lot better (must remember this for future reference). He was much more obedient in the ring the second time, and not worried about the other horses. Canter was still a little fly-away, but not bad. Ended up with a 60%, lots of 6s, couple 7s, 5s on two out of the three coefficients of course :XP but oh well. He broke in the right lead canter this time, so I might have focused a little TOO much on our downward transitions! I'd rather have that than his frantic running though. Collective Remarks: "Horse gets behind rider's aids and then other issues arise such as balance, straightness, etc." We ended up 4th, which was exciting. I wasn't really expecting to place, this being his first outing and all.

AriaStarSong


Brat_and_a_half

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:10 pm


Good job!! Yeah, my test scores have always been 59-68, but usually are 62-64. It's because we tend to get 7s at canter, which has the coefficient, and then get 5s at walk sweatdrop which also has the coefficient. Lol. The day we got 68, we got an 8 on canter (WOO) and a 6 on the walk coefficients, and thats what made the difference on the test with mostly 6s. Heehee, my favorite part is when you get a 7 for rider, lol. It makes you feel warm and fuzzy haha.
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