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 Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:19 am
I have not had a chance to get too far into the series.
I am curious.
We have all notice that Hirano has a knack for placing in obscure information into his work. Ie the Ripley scroll and so forth.
Is there any mention of the; die Blutfahne (The blood banner) ?
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:22 am
You've lost me on this obscure reference Gorenza. More data on the subject if you have any please?
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:24 am
Seems that the blood banner is to the Nazis what the true cross is to the christens. Said if one can obtain this relic that they cannot be defeated in battle. The christens and the Nazis each had a long streak of victories during there years or war. Which leads to such thoughts of mysterious charms. They say that the only times the Christens have lost is when there relic did not appear on the battle field. For both relics I wounder where have they gone and have they/ will they appear in Hellsing?
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:11 pm
The bit about the cross for Christians sounds like something from the time of the Crusades. I'm not surprised the Nazis supposedly had a similar mystical charm. There is so much out there connecting the Nazis to both the occult and one twisted version of Christianity. It wouldn't surprise me if such showed up in Hellsing. Though Hirano has done more so far with Christian symbolism and folk history than with Nazi occult lore.
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:51 pm
Is this the same thing as the Blood Flag?
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:00 pm
I'm confused myself, I think the only thing millennium's got for symbols is the enigma that is the bandage monster in the Dawn
as for this blood banner, I'm lost, and I think (like everyone else stated) Hirano relies more on christian symbols
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:41 pm
Antlers Is this the same thing as the Blood Flag? Flags and banners are like things. So yes, what do you know of the die Blutfahne?
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Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:16 pm
Gorenza Antlers Is this the same thing as the Blood Flag? Flags and banners are like things. So yes, what do you know of the die Blutfahne? The Blutfahne (Blood Flag) was a Nazi Swastika flag which was used in the attempted Nazi Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, Germany on November 9, 1923 and one of the most revered objects of the German Nazi Party. It was the company flag of the 5th Munich Sturmabteilung (Stormtrooper) Company. The flag was confiscated by the Munich Green Police after they opened fire on the Nazi revolutionary formation in front of the Bavarian Feldherrenhalle (Fallen Heroes' Hall). The Blutfahne was recovered from the Munich Police in 1925 and remounted on a two part black pole with a special unique wreath flag top. The pole also contained a dedication plate listing the names of those killed in the Putsch, whose blood was on the flag. It was kept in the Nazi HQ in Munich, called the Brown House, which had a flag museum in the downstairs hallway. The Blutfahne was last seen in public at the Induction Ceremony of the Volksturm on October 18, 1944. It has not been seen since. It is possible that it may have been destroyed, or it may yet survive, either in secret storage somewhere or simply unrecognized as such. Although the Blutfahne was revered, it was not held to have any mystical powers. The relic you are referring to, I believe, is the Spear of Destiny, also known as the Holy Lance or the Lance of Longinus. It is the spear that was used to pierce the side of Christ as he was hanging on the cross. It is said that he who holds it has the ability to decide the fate of the world. It is also said that Hitler became obsessed with it after seeing it in a museum in Vienna, Austria, and that he started World War II to obtain it.
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:13 am
NoLifeKing66 Gorenza Antlers Is this the same thing as the Blood Flag? Flags and banners are like things. So yes, what do you know of the die Blutfahne? The Blutfahne (Blood Flag) was a Nazi Swastika flag which was used in the attempted Nazi Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, Germany on November 9, 1923 and one of the most revered objects of the German Nazi Party. It was the company flag of the 5th Munich Sturmabteilung (Stormtrooper) Company. The flag was confiscated by the Munich Green Police after they opened fire on the Nazi revolutionary formation in front of the Bavarian Feldherrenhalle (Fallen Heroes' Hall). The Blutfahne was recovered from the Munich Police in 1925 and remounted on a two part black pole with a special unique wreath flag top. The pole also contained a dedication plate listing the names of those killed in the Putsch, whose blood was on the flag. It was kept in the Nazi HQ in Munich, called the Brown House, which had a flag museum in the downstairs hallway. The Blutfahne was last seen in public at the Induction Ceremony of the Volksturm on October 18, 1944. It has not been seen since. It is possible that it may have been destroyed, or it may yet survive, either in secret storage somewhere or simply unrecognized as such. Although the Blutfahne was revered, it was not held to have any mystical powers. The relic you are referring to, I believe, is the Spear of Destiny, also known as the Holy Lance or the Lance of Longinus. It is the spear that was used to pierce the side of Christ as he was hanging on the cross. It is said that he who holds it has the ability to decide the fate of the world. It is also said that Hitler became obsessed with it after seeing it in a museum in Vienna, Austria, and that he started World War II to obtain it. Herd that as well about the spear. I believe they made it a pivotal part in the movie (based of the comic book) Constantine. As we venture back and forth between reality and the occult it's easy to meld the lines a bit. I have only herd snip its of stories in which the flag had a meaningful power. This could most easily just be related to Nazi pride. Every culture has it's relics, rituals and secrets. I find it interesting that Hirano only really taps into the creative mysticism of the Christan relics. Regardless I thought it was interesting. I will be interested to see if anything surfaces. The power struggle between these groups catches my curiosity at times.
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:17 am
The History Channel (here in the U.S.) has had whole shows devoted to Nazi Mysticism. I don't recall specific mention of the die Blutfahne, or the Lance Longinus though. It focused more on prophecy and Himmler's (right person?) continued devotion to the occult even after for Hitler it had become mostly ceremonial and symbolic.
In my opinion, Hitler was looking for any and all ways to win his war, including mastery of the soul of the German race. Hand in hand with the practical worship he inspired as a near savior type figure. Listening to things such as this it floors me how overblown and out of hand all the symbolism and mysticism seemed to get. Yet it was nearly all behind the scenes, only in more recent years really out there for learning and discussion.
It would be cool if Hirano used more Nazi symbolism, but it would be harder to pick out which sources to rely upon and base his work off of. Christian symbolism is more mainstream, established and accessible.
I wonder; how does Japanese culture/history feel about the Nazis? I know they are a morbid fascination for many in the U.S. and in Germany the very flag is banned.
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:35 am
Gorenza NoLifeKing66 Gorenza Antlers Is this the same thing as the Blood Flag? Flags and banners are like things. So yes, what do you know of the die Blutfahne? The Blutfahne (Blood Flag) was a Nazi Swastika flag which was used in the attempted Nazi Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, Germany on November 9, 1923 and one of the most revered objects of the German Nazi Party. It was the company flag of the 5th Munich Sturmabteilung (Stormtrooper) Company. The flag was confiscated by the Munich Green Police after they opened fire on the Nazi revolutionary formation in front of the Bavarian Feldherrenhalle (Fallen Heroes' Hall). The Blutfahne was recovered from the Munich Police in 1925 and remounted on a two part black pole with a special unique wreath flag top. The pole also contained a dedication plate listing the names of those killed in the Putsch, whose blood was on the flag. It was kept in the Nazi HQ in Munich, called the Brown House, which had a flag museum in the downstairs hallway. The Blutfahne was last seen in public at the Induction Ceremony of the Volksturm on October 18, 1944. It has not been seen since. It is possible that it may have been destroyed, or it may yet survive, either in secret storage somewhere or simply unrecognized as such. Although the Blutfahne was revered, it was not held to have any mystical powers. The relic you are referring to, I believe, is the Spear of Destiny, also known as the Holy Lance or the Lance of Longinus. It is the spear that was used to pierce the side of Christ as he was hanging on the cross. It is said that he who holds it has the ability to decide the fate of the world. It is also said that Hitler became obsessed with it after seeing it in a museum in Vienna, Austria, and that he started World War II to obtain it. Herd that as well about the spear. I believe they made it a pivotal part in the movie (based of the comic book) Hellboy. As we venture back and forth between reality and the occult it's easy to meld the lines a bit. I have only herd snip its of stories in which the flag had a meaningful power. This could most easily just be related to Nazi pride. Every culture has it's relics, rituals and secrets. I find it interesting that Hirano only really taps into the creative mysticism of the Christan relics. Regardless I thought it was interesting. I will be interested to see if anything surfaces. The power struggle between these groups catches my curiosity at times. Every culture has its relics, rituals, and secrets, but not every relic, ritual, or secret has (or is held to have) real power. That being said, the Spear of Destiny did not have a pivotal role in the Hellboy movie. It was merely mentioned and briefly seen. It did have a pivotal role in Constantine (a movie based on the Hellblazer comics). In fact, I think the Spear of Destiny prop was made for one of those movies and later used in the other (I can't remember which). I think Christian relics are often used because, as Sir Catherine said, they are more easily recognized.
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Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:02 pm
The Spear of Longinus was used prominently in the Evangelion anime series. Ugh, if you want mixed up symbolism and confusion of meaning, look no further.
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:55 pm
Sir_Catherine The Spear of Longinus was used prominently in the Evangelion anime series. Ugh, if you want mixed up symbolism and confusion of meaning, look no further. Ah yes Evangelion. I have never had the rug pulled out form under me so hard then when watching the end of that series. Like a M Night Shyamalan film. A big twist at the end that leads you on to more questions. What really bugged me was that the build up did not even prepare you for the end. Only after you finish it can you make the connections. Ugh. Well at least you can't say it was predictable.
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Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:12 pm
NoLifeKing66 Gorenza NoLifeKing66 Gorenza Antlers Is this the same thing as the Blood Flag? Flags and banners are like things. So yes, what do you know of the die Blutfahne? The Blutfahne (Blood Flag) was a Nazi Swastika flag which was used in the attempted Nazi Beer Hall Putsch in Munich, Germany on November 9, 1923 and one of the most revered objects of the German Nazi Party. It was the company flag of the 5th Munich Sturmabteilung (Stormtrooper) Company. The flag was confiscated by the Munich Green Police after they opened fire on the Nazi revolutionary formation in front of the Bavarian Feldherrenhalle (Fallen Heroes' Hall). The Blutfahne was recovered from the Munich Police in 1925 and remounted on a two part black pole with a special unique wreath flag top. The pole also contained a dedication plate listing the names of those killed in the Putsch, whose blood was on the flag. It was kept in the Nazi HQ in Munich, called the Brown House, which had a flag museum in the downstairs hallway. The Blutfahne was last seen in public at the Induction Ceremony of the Volksturm on October 18, 1944. It has not been seen since. It is possible that it may have been destroyed, or it may yet survive, either in secret storage somewhere or simply unrecognized as such. Although the Blutfahne was revered, it was not held to have any mystical powers. The relic you are referring to, I believe, is the Spear of Destiny, also known as the Holy Lance or the Lance of Longinus. It is the spear that was used to pierce the side of Christ as he was hanging on the cross. It is said that he who holds it has the ability to decide the fate of the world. It is also said that Hitler became obsessed with it after seeing it in a museum in Vienna, Austria, and that he started World War II to obtain it. Herd that as well about the spear. I believe they made it a pivotal part in the movie (based of the comic book) Hellboy. As we venture back and forth between reality and the occult it's easy to meld the lines a bit. I have only herd snip its of stories in which the flag had a meaningful power. This could most easily just be related to Nazi pride. Every culture has it's relics, rituals and secrets. I find it interesting that Hirano only really taps into the creative mysticism of the Christan relics. Regardless I thought it was interesting. I will be interested to see if anything surfaces. The power struggle between these groups catches my curiosity at times. Every culture has its relics, rituals, and secrets, but not every relic, ritual, or secret has (or is held to have) real power. That being said, the Spear of Destiny did not have a pivotal role in the Hellboy movie. It was merely mentioned and briefly seen. It did have a pivotal role in Constantine (a movie based on the Hellblazer comics). In fact, I think the Spear of Destiny prop was made for one of those movies and later used in the other (I can't remember which). I think Christian relics are often used because, as Sir Catherine said, they are more easily recognized. Funny you caught my switch from Hellboy to Constantine. I realized after I wrote it that there was a better movie that would suit my point. I understand the ready availableness to be the case. What is said and what is not said to have power is so abstract in literature. Do you agree? So much we can't really prove or disprove. So much is unwritten and unspoken. The power of belief and the understanding of what are and are not sacred symbols is so difficult to grasp. When dealing with secretive groups such as the Nazis it's hard to say what we know and what they want us to know. That is about as helpful a point as any conspiracy theory. Probably why the power of sacred symbols in story's have so many interpretations. Haah that was fun.
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