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 Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:29 pm
NOTICE: This is a thread for DISCUSSION on GOR. The Gorean Lifestyle, Gorean homes, and John Norman's "Chronicles of Gor."
This is NOT a gorean chat. No karta, no Tal, no Master/Mistress, no Jarl, no formal address.
I am not condoning or condemning Gor, this is informative only.
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Okay, moving on!! Gor tends to be kind of an older lifestyle, that is - most people I've seen in it (and my experience is limited) tend to be in their 30s+, but there are the occasional youngbloods. However, it is definitely a D/s lifestyle, and there is the occasional thread in chatterbox or lifestyle, but TCC seems to be lacking it.
In 1966, John Norman wrote the first book in the Chronicles of Gor. Over the next 30 years, he continued writing, enjoying huge popularity in the 70s and 80s. These science fiction books depict the world of Gor, a planet ruled by dominant, self-actualized men, in which women embrace their servile natures, delighting in a life of serving and pleasuring men.
There is more to it, but that's the basic premise. Gor is not a religion, but due to the heavy emphasis on rituals and bondage, has received negative press as a "cult."
(almost entirely, men in Gor are the "tops," women in Gor are the "bottoms," though there are rare exceptions of Free-Women, Mistresses, and male slaves.)
BDSM, as most in here are aware, stands for Bondage & Discipline, Dominance & Submission, and Sadism & Masochism. Gor is not BDSM, exactly. There is Bondage - women are generally collared, and Discipline - they are taught how to best serve. At Dominance and Submission, however, it gets tricky. There is definitely Dominance, but anyone in Gor will tell you that there are NOT submissives. This is not a lifestyle of one's will being bent to that of a dominant being, but delight in relinquishing any control over one's will. And lastly, Sadism & Masochism is very rarely part of Gor. A Gorean Master generally does not enjoy beating his slave "for the fun of it," but to teach and discipline. Equally, Gorean slaves (kajiri) generally are not masochistic, but extremely compliant to their masters ("If my master is beating me, I am glad that he is doing this to instruct and care for me).
At first glance, Gor can seem extremely unbalanced between men and women, but it is a very complex lifestyle. It takes a great deal of trust and effort on both parts, and I have rarely found a male that is not extremely concerned with the well-being of his female(s).
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Anyway. What do you think of Gor? Does anyone in TCC live this life/dabble around the edges? For those involved, please feel free to correct me if any of this information is flawed. I tried to keep it basic, and somewhat objective. razz
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:17 pm
*blinku* That reminds me a little bit of scientology. And Im not saying that its bad like ST is supposed to be, just that it kinda came from a book and turned to a RL thing. *nod*
But other than that.....nevar heard of it. :3
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Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:32 pm
I had a huge thread about Gor in ED. I've known a couple of Goreans, but the only ones I've ever spoken with that I respected are gillian bree and her Master Darius. They are on Gaia. The thing is, though, they don't practice Gor the way most of their crowd does, and they catch flak about it from other Goreans.
Gor is not accepted among a lot of BDSM people because of issues with consent. Goreans generally feel that consent once given is always given. A woman who has agreed to be a kajira (slave) will *always* have that status. Some Goreans think that kidnapping a woman off the streets is completely acceptable. A kajira is to be submissive to *all* Gorean Masters and, in fact, all Masters can punish anyone's kajira.
Another reason most BDSM folk don't accept Gor is because of the idea that men are naturally dominant and women are naturally slaves. And, while the ideal might be "not a lifestyle of one's will being bent to that of a dominant being" (which is certainly not the case in healthy BDSM, either!), the fact is that many Gorean males think it is quite permissible to beat their women into submission. One Gorean male I knew had this motto: Delayed obedience is not obedience. Questioned obedience is not obedience. Partial obedience is not obedience.
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:08 pm
I wanna walk in the open wind.
I wanna kiss like lovers do.
*shakes her head* I really don't agree with most of that.
Not to mention, it doesn't mention anything about gay/lesbian relationships. :/I wanna dive into your ocean.
Is it raining with you?
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:55 pm
Hm I have never heard of that lifestyle but I think I like the idea of it at least. Do you know of any good website involved with the Gorean lifestyle?
@fioce: The motto the Gorean male gave you about obedience makes a lot of sense at least to any Goreans. I think any Masters/Mistresses who arent a part of that lifestyle would believe the same thing.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:42 pm
I find it needlessly pedantic in presentation, and utterly unstimulating in emotion.
The ultimate submission of will is stagnant, and to me, uninteresting. It is the struggle that drives the action of any story- and romance of any sort is nothing if not a tale.
Thus, the Goreans, who eschew struggle for a private utopia- and a dubious one- I find personally distasteful.
Those who are happy in it, I wish the joy of it. I do not mean to give offense, of course.
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:01 pm
Joseph Severn I find it needlessly pedantic in presentation, and utterly unstimulating in emotion. The ultimate submission of will is stagnant, and to me, uninteresting. It is the struggle that drives the action of any story- and romance of any sort is nothing if not a tale. Thus, the Goreans, who eschew struggle for a private utopia- and a dubious one- I find personally distasteful. Those who are happy in it, I wish the joy of it. I do not mean to give offense, of course.
I tend to agree at least a little with your view of it. It just sounds really harsh, too.
Not to mention I generally dislike having a quivering lump of mush as a playmate. I like a tiny bit of feistiness and energy. Just enough to make it fun.
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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:41 pm
I find the idea fascinating, and I would enjoy researching it more. But I don't think in action with human nature it could work. At least, not in most cases. It's a romantic idea that I sometimes lose myself in (if for no other reason then that it would be so much easier then living my life), but people are not naturally like that, and it would be a constant mental if not physical struggle.
I also agree with Joseph; struggling and finally giving my compliance is what makes these things stimulating for me. Just simply doing everything the master says, even if I find it distasteful, and having no boundaries, would be.. painful, to say the least. I don't think I could do it, it would drive me insane.
And Brittany brings up a good point; What about the gays and the lesbians? Where do they fall into this lifestyle? If they do at all. I don't ask that to be argumentative, I'm simply curious.
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Imaginary Marionette Vice Captain
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:32 pm
Huzzah! You've answered a question of mine! My play-mate asked me if I knew what gor-training was when we first started seeing each other. .::laughs::. then he asked me again once when I was sitting in an abayante [sp?] kneeling position, meditataing actually. .::laughs::. I'll have to track these books down. I am greatly intruiged.
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Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 8:30 pm
It isn't inherently sexual, because it's the assumed way of things. Because men are Top, and this is always so, and there's no question of it, why would they get sexual arousal from it. Why would they think about it sexually any more than a man putting on pants? Ditto in reverse for the women. (and yes, i know my point ignores people with clothes fetishes and tg fetishes etc, but you get my basic idea?) It's a gender role they've been taught.
While BDSM has many facets, but in general it's two things more than others, it's about sex/sexuality and it's about choice. Choice adds meaning to everything in BDSM. Dominance and submission. Choices. When a submissive chooses to submit to a Dom, it's a choice they get pleasure out of (even if they're choosing a purely SM scene), and for a Dom, having someone surrender to you? That feels pretty damn good. It's also part of the rules and guidelines of the scene. Safe, sane, consensual.
Even if we look at the less safe and sane parts of BDSM, something like rape fantasies and ownership, isn't what's arounsing about them to people still all about choice? The choice the person who get's raped should have had (I'm talking fantasies only here guys, real rape= bad). And a lifetime slave, about the choices they gave up forever.
I don't think the Gorean lifestyle is compatible with BDSM. I'm sure there are people who combine elements of both and make it work, but the two of them just can't fit together as they are.
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Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:02 pm
Joseph Severn I find it needlessly pedantic in presentation, and utterly unstimulating in emotion. The ultimate submission of will is stagnant, and to me, uninteresting. It is the struggle that drives the action of any story- and romance of any sort is nothing if not a tale. Thus, the Goreans, who eschew struggle for a private utopia- and a dubious one- I find personally distasteful. Those who are happy in it, I wish the joy of it. I do not mean to give offense, of course. This is the second thread where I have seen you and the second time you have impressed me with what you have to say and how you say it. While the idea of a Gorean lifestyle may appeal to some, or may be appealing on the surface, I find that the struggle in a any relationship and in life are more appealing then the easy times. To me an old adage applies here as well "Would you rather live a life of luxury, or a life of meaning?"
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Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:13 pm
To begin, a Gor thread! that means I don't need to start one smile
A bit about myself:
I have read all the books, and have been a slave for 3 years now. My Master is the meaning of my life.
A few points which I like to address:
1. Struggle - Just because a slave agrees to be 100% obedient to the Master, it does not mean there is no struggle in the relationship. The will be things which despite the slave's desire to obey, she will have struggle either mentally or physically to do so. The challenge for the Master of course is then to help the slave over come that struggle in a constructive way.
Goreans do not ask for things to be easy, they do not ask everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. They will fight to the death for the right to own a favored slave. They will struggle (in the books at least), and without complaint, for a great many things (they farm, they hunt, they work, they defend their cities against hostile neighbours). They just choose not to accept having to struggle with their slaves.
Consider this, is it distasteful to expect your coffee maker to be in good working order whenever you want a cup of coffee? or is it distasteful to expect your car engine to start on the first try? There is enough in life to struggle with already, without having to struggle with your slave too at the end of a hard day.
2. BDSM vs Gor - BDSM stands for Bondage&Discipline, Dominance&Submission, SadoMasochism. The D/s portion alone qualifies Gor as part of BDSM. Even by the definition of BDSM is about Sexuality and choice, Gor still qualifies, ande the following is why.
Sexuality. Goreans do have sex, and they do have kinky sex as well. One of the major uses of slaves depicted in the books is to dominate the slave sexually. Orgasm denial, forced orgasms, sex while in bondage, sex without intentionally giving the slave pleasure, and not to mention the slave dance, where the slave dances in sexually stimulating outfits, and possibly in some form of bondage. As for not getting sexual arousal because your authority is not questioned, what man does not get aroused with the thought "I have a woman kneeling naked at my feet, and I can have her in anyway I want."? Just because something is a natural part of daily lif, does not deprive it of sexual interest. As long as there is a sexual intent, almost anything can be sexual.
Choice. While slaves in the books do not have choice. Real life Gorean slave do have choice, one very big choice. They choose who will be their Master and how long they will remain to be his slave. It is similar to choosing to enter a scene, except, the consequences of this choice will last far longer than a normal scene, and possibly for the rest of her life. Yes, there will be abusers who won't let the slave terminate an abusive relationship, but such people exists as much outside of Gor as within.
3. Gay/lesbian - Yes, it is true that there are no mention of gay/lesbian relationships in Gor. However, there is no reason for gay/lesbian couples/groups to live a Gorean life style. The core of Gor is Total Power Exchange (TPE). Just because a guy named John Norman doesn't believe in gay/lesbian relationships, doesn't mean you can't take the good points of his writing to benefit you and your partner.
4. Informed discussion - one of the major challenges I have had in the past is dealing with people who think they know Gor, but really have only glanced at a couple websites or read a few summaries. Gor cannot be so easily summed up. I highly recommended reading all the books if you are interested in Gor, or if you like to think you know enough about Gor to comment intelligently on it. I have all the books in digital format if you need it. On top of that, I will gladly answer any questions anyone might have.
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Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:55 am
Slaveflower, leave it to you to say a lot what I wanted to say before I even get here. Thank you.
I was trained in the Gorean lifestyle when I was about 16 years old and I can't imagine things any other way.
Slaveflower is right. There is a lot of struggle in the Gorean slave/master relationship. Especially when a slave is chosen that has never been a slave before. The goal of a Gorean man with a slave is to conquer her completely, sexually, physically, emotionally. Slaves must learn what it means to be purely slave, female, and return to their basest instincts. That is not an easy thing to bring about in any person, especially in 'real' or 'Earth' Gorean relationships. As we all know, humans on Earth (especially women) are trained out of almost all of their instincts and women are encouraged or even forced to repress their sexuality (On Gor, equally, the free women are treated much like women in a Muslim society, forced to cover themselves and be as proper as possible). That repression is not allowed in a Gorean slave and the job falls to their master to put a stop to all of that conditioning. In my opinion that is quite a struggle. The breaking down of inhibitions and mental blocks in a human being is difficult for both the slave and master. They struggle through it together, and that deepens their bond. In the books a concept is often touched on that is referred to as 'love slaves'. Men will find their one true slave, a woman who loves them completely in her submission and he will love her completely in his dominance over her. There are several examples of this through the stories. The first that comes to mind is Hassan and Alyena in Tribesman of Gor. She, a girl from Earth, is taught complete submission at his hands. And when she is captured he risks his life for her even if she is only slave. There is a lot of romance in the Gorean relationship and I have rarely met a Gorean slave (in a real Earth Gorean relationship) who does not love her master. I think Slaveflower would agree. I know she loves her master and I love mine.
As for the Gay and Lesbian question, lets remember here that this is a series of books. The issue may not be addressed in the story but that is because it has no relevance to the story. I feel like sexual relationships between females are implied in the stories however. And Norman as not against homosexuality. He does not address it in his stories but I believe he address is in his nonfiction work Imaginative Sex.
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Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:36 pm
I think it's what the movie historie d'O is about ay? Pretty good movie.. But I do not find such a relationship/livestyle attractive at all. While I do enjoy a good master/Slave roleplay I still want to be able to snuggle at the end and enjoy anothers company in a more equal manner.
I think there's a way to do everything and there's overdoing something. But if it works out for people then I wont stand in the way. But from what I have seen and heard it's brainwashing
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Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 4:05 pm
The Gorean lifestyle really does interest me. Does anyone have any links to a reputable source of information? Thanks in advance if anyone does post some links.
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Reply
