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 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 pm
As you may or may not know,Purgatory, put in simple words is Hell. One of the worst levels of hell. Most may invision it as flames.
A definition includes:
Roman Catholic Definition Ideally,Purgatory is the condition,process,or place of purification or temporary punishment in which souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven.
Eastern Orthodox Version The Eastern Orthodox Church believes in the possibility of a change of situation for the souls of the dead through the prayers of the living and the offering of the Divine Liturgy
Christianity's Thoughts Some other Christian denominations also assert the possibility of an improvement in the soul's spiritual situation following death
Judaism Moreover Judaism also believes in the possibility of after-death purification[5] and may even use the word "purgatory" to present its understanding of the meaning of Gehenna.[6] However, the concept of soul "purification" may be explicitly denied in these other faith traditions.
Heaven and Hell According to Catholic belief, immediately after death, a person undergoes judgment in which the soul's eternal destiny is specified. Some are eternally united with God in Heaven, often envisioned as a paradise of eternal joy. Conversely, others are destined for Hell, a state of eternal separation from God often envisioned as a fiery place of punishment.
Sin Roman Catholics make a distinction between two types of sin.[12] Mortal sin is a "grave violation of God's law" that "turns man away from God",[13] and if it is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell.[14] In contrast, venial sin (meaning "forgivable" sin) "does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God"[15] and, although still "constituting a moral disorder",[16] does not deprive the sinner of friendship with God, and consequently the eternal happiness of heaven.[17] According to Roman Catholicism, pardon of sins and purification can occur during life - for example, in the Sacrament of Baptism[18] and the Sacrament of Penance.[19] However, if this purification is not achieved in life, venial sins can still be purified after death.[20] The specific name given to this purification of sin after death is "purgatory".[21]
As you can see,Purgatory has multiple meanings and versions. To each religion it has an entirely different meaning. Whether it be a place or judgement.
Now, I would like to advance the discussion somewhat.
Shakespeare,Romeo and Juliet "There is no world without Verona walls, But purgatory,torture,hell itself. Hence "Banished" is banished from the world, And the world's exile is death" (3.3.18-21)
Shakespeare,Romeo and Juliet "Where Civil Blood makes Civil Hands unclean." Prologue,Line 4
Now,the facts and evidence lies in this topic above. Romeo talks about life without Verona. How without it it is Purgatory itself. To be banished is to be banished form the world. And the world's exile is death.
Whereas with Civil Blood and Civil Hands. It means that blood of nobility or of the innocent is being spilt by that of the noble.
Question Discussion: How can we tie this to Hellsing? Do we truly go to Purgatory for our sins? For are we all sinners? Who may be 'Civil' in Hellsing that spills blood? How so?
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:13 pm
I'd like to argue your opening statement, and you definition of Hell.
Hell, as defined by Dante, the great italian writer, was a vast land of ice, where the devil devours the 3 most traitorous of men. Judas, Brutus, and Cassius, (though Brutus and Cassius might have been replaced by others, as they were picked by Dante for different reasons than true mortal sin). ]
And, Hell, as defined by some religious sects, is a very 'personal place'. Hell is supposed to take the form of that which will make us fear. Its the place that will shape with our sins, so when we die, our sins shall be laid out, and we shall suffer in a way which we most fear.
Hell is also defined as a place all souls go to, for we all sin, and no one is exempt from sin.
Purgatory however, is not Hell. It is a place where souls wander for eternity, till the coming of the son of God. (or second coming, ect). It CAN be a pl;ace of torture, though, usually, it endless wandering, to know the fruits of heaven, yet to be denied that which we desire.
I think all souls go to hell, yet, we may receive redemption, depending on our sins, and what our punishment is for them.
Both Hellsing members (no vampiric), AND all of Iscariot can be called 'civil'.
They kill for what is not beneficial totally to them but to others, and they see themselves as righteous. They spill the blood of those who murder the innocent, yet they kill innocents themselves, directly, or indirectly.
Alucard though, would best fit the definition of 'civil'. He was once, and is a nobel. He kills the innocent in some cases. yet, he knows this, and I'd like to think he intendeds to redeem himself later on, in true death.
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iStoleYurVamps
iStoleYurVamps
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:56 pm
Fascinating really. I completely forgot about all of that. Meaning,Judas,Brutu and Cassius.
I was in a complete and utter hurry to finish the topic because I had to take my leave.>_<;
Even saints are sinners. True. I just that I should add an oxymoron right now.."Damned Saint"-Juliet referring to Romeo in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.
"The vaulty heaven so high above our heads.."I just felt the need to add that quote.
Though Purgatory has so many meanings! Many held by religious moral!
Oh I have but a question...is Purgatory somewhat like Limbo? For Limbo is a place whre souls are stuck to reside.
I agree with you when you say that all of Iscariot and both Hellsing members can be referred to as "civil". There hands are clean,yet unclean. Noble pride. Honorable to the end. Tough they shed blood.
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:33 pm
Technically most Protestants think the concept of purgatory and limbo is complete and utter bunk, as there is little to no biblical evidence to back up their existence.
Boom, you're dead and you're going to one of two places, bb. Your time spent on earth as a living, breathing human being is all the time you get as far as your soul's condition is concerned.
Just... two cents from the Protestant chit. wink
I'm interested to see everyone else's opinions on this topic, though. :3
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:08 pm
Yesss. *pokes Sir Integra's recent post*
*shifty protestant eyes*
But that doesn't mean I shant join in the discussion, this could be very fun, although very confusing, I may have to think about this one.
=/
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:52 pm
Suni moon Yesss. *pokes Sir Integra's recent post* *shifty protestant eyes* But that doesn't mean I shant join in the discussion, this could be very fun, although very confusing, I may have to think about this one. =/ It's an interesting concept, but kinda cheating. 's a weird hopeful thing, almost, like... you kicked a puppy and were run over by a train before you could ask for forgiveness, so you wind up in purgatory to work it off instead of bouncing to the pearly gates and having to explain yourself. To add to the discussion though, I think Hell in and of itself is the absence of God. That would be the worst thing ever, at least to me. Take my costumes, take my hands, take my eyes, take everything you have of me that I've worked for and I'm proud of, but being removed forever from earth and lacking even the smallest chance that my soul will be reunited with Him in heaven and, well... that's horrendously frightening. @ Inu - "Saints are sinners": You are absolutely correct. :3 The only perfect being to have walked the earth was Jesus Christ- Christians are to aspire to /be/ perfect like him, but ultimately it's an unattainable goal because we're tainted by original sin. No amount of good works or zealot-like faith will change that, either. But you should do your best while you're here and strive to glorify God in your words and thoughts and actions. Which means I'm totally going to have a LOT of explainin' to do when I shake off my mortal coil, ulp.Aaaaand, iirc: Purgatory is for believers only. Limbo is where unbabtised babies and non-believers who were nonetheless good people supposedly go. I think one of the recent popes canned both ideas, at any rate. Consider it hear-say at this point though. >>' Any of my catholic peeps want to take the opportunity to bash your protestant sister for getting facts wrong?
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:58 pm
Ahh limbo, where unbaptised babies and non-believers go.... It always makes me wonder where unbaptised believers(me) and baptised non-believers(meh friend, Zarr) go...
>_>
<_<
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:12 am
Suni moon Ahh limbo, where unbaptised babies and non-believers go.... It always makes me wonder where unbaptised believers(me) and baptised non-believers(meh friend, Zarr) go... >_> <_< Baptism itself is more a symbolic thing than anything. Sort of washing the slate clean and showing God you're gonna do right for Him. At least, it's how I've come to look at it. In that light it sort of sits odd for me when babies and kids get baptised. They're young and impressionable and kids especially are easily led. It's heartwarming and sweet to see munchkins getting dunked, but I often wonder if they truly know what the symbolism means or if they're doing it cos Mom and Dad want them to. neutral
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Sir_Catherine Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:44 am
Inu of Baskerville There hands are clean,yet unclean.
No truer words yet posted here in reference to our fandoms.
In response to baptism of children, in my experience it is often done of babies who are so young they don't even recall the event. I see it as symbolic of the hopes and prayers the parents have for the child, and an expression of their dedicating these hopes and prayers to God. Confirmation, when the child is fully a participant, is the child's acceptance of God and dedicating of their own hopes and prayers. Confirming the baptism so to speak. I've heard many speak against baptizing babies, but what they often wish to see in baptism is supposed to take place during confirmation.
I must also quote Suni in "this could be very fun, although very confusing". I to will have to review my literature and theology if I am to fully participate in a discussion. That may or may not happen with me working so much and the con coming up so fast.
As far as limbo and purgatory themselves go though, I've little to say, primarily because I am Lutheran and we aren't taught of such things.
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Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:20 pm
o-o Ja ja ja. Amazing. >> And oh Im physoctic..I never knew that..*sarcasm*
Oh..I spelled Theyre wrong..meant to put "Theyre" instead of "there." Just staring at my typos..
Oh oh oh oh! Then Im going to Limbo!o-O Maybe...
Yes. Alll of this i s so very interesting,though. Remarkable. I think all of this has opened my eyes furthermore.
A bit of this we could categorie as philsophy. For these are our thoughts,opinions,beliefs and what nots. MAybe even morals.
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:13 pm
Well, the Pope recently said there is no Limbo. eek Shakespeare says some weird stuff...you heard that "lead apes in hell" one yet? I want to know where that comes from... neutral I only read Inferno, but my teacher said according to Dante, in Purgatory the punishments are even worse - even though it's for believers. At least they have hope, though... confused Eh, not all Hell was ice, according to him, just the 9th circle (part of the 8th circle was flames, for example, and most the 7th was hot). I assume the Iscariots are wiling to suffer the worst punishments in Purgatory to get to heaven eventually? Or are they actually planning on going to hell? I'm not sure if there is a basis for Purgatory in the Bible (hence, no Protestants on-board). For the Catholics, though [url=http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm]Catechism[/url] 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. Ah, that last part Jesus did say somewhere, so I guess that's where it's from. Sir Catherine, Protestants often don't like to use "baptism" for dedicating children because it implies salvation is involved...historically, anyway. Maybe more of a confusion of terms these days?
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm
Aeronn Well, the Pope recently said there is no Limbo. eek Shakespeare says some weird stuff...you heard that "lead apes in hell" one yet? I want to know where that comes from... neutral I only read Inferno, but my teacher said according to Dante, in Purgatory the punishments are even worse - even though it's for believers. At least they have hope, though... confused Eh, not all Hell was ice, according to him, just the 9th circle (part of the 8th circle was flames, for example, and most the 7th was hot). I assume the Iscariots are wiling to suffer the worst punishments in Purgatory to get to heaven eventually? Or are they actually planning on going to hell? I'm not sure if there is a basis for Purgatory in the Bible (hence, no Protestants on-board). For the Catholics, though [url=http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm]Catechism[/url] 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. Ah, that last part Jesus did say somewhere, so I guess that's where it's from. Sir Catherine, Protestants often don't like to use "baptism" for dedicating children because it implies salvation is involved...historically, anyway. Maybe more of a confusion of terms these days? Amen..er Im glad that Im not a strict catholic. o_O No limbo...? Liiiies. Liiiiiessss. Controversy in the midsts!!! "Lead apes in hell' Im going to just stare and let thaat slide....o-o Yesss..but..a true genius of a mad man.. yip yup yup. I Still need to read about Dante. Though all of this sounds oh so familiar..too many horror movies and novels too...like Room 1408.. sweatdrop "Burn Me Alive" 14/08 and 1+4+0+8 Anywho...that's a hard question to answer with the Iscariots. Though,the answer is there. In plain sigh,really. Its just hard to put into words..but I would assume so. I suppose in the midsts of their work,they will risk going to hell to reach heaven and peace.
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Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:48 pm
Glad somebody brought up the differing views on Purgatory. Hellsing members, being Protestant, would not believe in Purgatory. Hell and heaven, yes. But there isn't Bibilical evidence of Purgatory's existence.
The Iscariot members might believe in it, but they'd believe they were heaven bound.
And on the sort of off topic discussion on child baptism, it's more of a Catholic thing. Protestants do dedications, because we believe that baptism doesn't save you. Also, we believe that a child will go to heaven until he reaches the age of accountability, when he can understand and choose if he will accept God. And...I can't remember why started talking about infant baptism.
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:20 pm
Jaaa... Well,its fun to bring such things up,because its a pleasure to see everyone's different views and opinions.
Agreed.
I knew that baptisim is a Catholic thing...but..thats all I knew. Thats an interesting tid-bit to bring up. 3nodding
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Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:00 pm
Inu of Baskerville ... I knew that baptisim is a Catholic thing...but..thats all I knew. Thats an interesting tid-bit to bring up. 3nodding Not baptism as a whole, just infant baptism and baptism for the remission of sins.
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