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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:34 pm
Greetings, individual reading this particular document. You have stumbled upon my near foolproof guide to decent RPing. The objective of this guide is to attempt to improve your general level of RPing. This will not only improve the enjoyment of your future RPs for yourself, but for everyone RPing with you. If this does not cover your intentions, you are lost and I cannot help you. But of course that's why you're here, right? To learn greater RPing? You have come to the right place. I'll do all within my power and knowledge of effective RPing to open your eyes. Discover your maximum potential.
Please note reading this will not miraculously make you a better RPer. Nothing I can write will force you into becoming something greater, it is up to you to change yourself. All I can do is show you the way based on how I RP, which has been deemed by all critics to be exceptionally above standard. This is also not concrete rules to RPing, but merely a suggested method, my method. We all know, though, that my method is not and will never be your own method, and I don't want you to copy my method. You have your own way of RPing, and it suits you, but you can always improve your method, which is what I wish to accomplish in this documentation. Read with high discretion.
Version updates: Ver1.1- Added 1st post Ver1.2- Added 2nd post Ver1.3- Added 3rd post Ver1.4- Added 4th post Ver1.5- Added Version updates to 1st post; added Speed Issue: Warping, The pause button, and Zero mph to 3rd post Ver1.6- Added White Text!, Literacy within Talking, and Literacy within OOC to 2nd post; added Acronyms... and Killing someone to 3rd post Ver1.7- Added Alignment: The Good Guys: Hero, Anti-Hero, and Loner to 4th post Ver1.8- Added update reminder to 1st post; Added Content Specifics to 2nd post; added Instant Regeneration and Psychic Warping to 3rd post; added Rule of Lists to 4th post Ver1.9- Added Bios, a Thing of the Past to 4th post; Exaggerations Are Emphasis! to 2nd post; The Ol' Profile to 4th post; The 5th post, which covers the Rules of Thumb of Decent RPing
Things I want to add to the next update (so I don't forget): -Just to add stuff to the 5th post. Nothing specific yet.
((I ask that nobody dare post here until I am done. This will take quite a while.))
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:58 pm
In order to make everything relevant, we'll start from the beginning and reintroduce all the elements and mechanics of RPing, then expand from there. Content SpecificsBefore I begin, I might want to point out that this guide was not intented for some categories of RPs, and thus I would not go into detail about aspect that would enhance those types of RPs. The target genre of this guide is Action/Adventure, the essence of Fire Emblem in particular. Yes, this guide was designed to help Fire Emblem role players the greatest. However, this should not disqualify you from reading this if you do not like action or adventure, because it covers many basic skills that are needed for any type of RP as well. What is an RP?RP stands for "role play". It is self-explanitory, the art of playing roles. For the purposes of this guide, RPs will represent when you, the user, play the role of someone. This someone can be ANYONE; it could be you, an imaginary character, a character already in existance, a non-existant third person ((such as a narrator)) or any combination of the above. The objective of an RP is to live a story. Each RPer is a part of this story. How you play your part of the story is what makes it a mediocre experience or a fantastic adventure. A bad RPer can ruin an RP because s/he plays his/her part poorly and thus disrupts the balance and destroys the flow of the story... more simply put, does a good job at pissing everyone else off. Everyone must play their part to the best of their ability. What is required of an RPer?Aside from whatever details the RP's owner might have, the basic nessecities for an RPer is adequate knowledge of English, or whatever language the RP is in. You must know how to type, and how to type well. You must be able to tell your side of the story so that everyone who reads it can understand and follow it without any trouble. If you're confusing them, their response will be hindered, and I don't recommend confusing people. You must have at least basic understanding of grammar, puntuation, spelling, and capitalization. If you don't have this, you won't even be able to communicate your thoughts and actions. Talk about alienation. Concerning Vocabulary.You do not need an extensive vocabulary to RP great, but it helps. All you need to know is basic words. Remember, your task is to tell your side of the story without confusing them. Sometimes, simple words do a better job of that than complex ones; it all depends on who you're trying to reach. A good vocabulary only should provide you with an array of possible word choices so that you can more effectively deliver the message you're trying to send. You shouldn't constrict yourself with a poor vocabulary, on the other hand. You could become tedious, using the same word all the time, or altogether using a word that most would consider "a poor choice of words." How do I talk? How do I not talk?While this may be just preferance, using quotation marks to distinguish whenever your character is speaking is the prefered method. This is mainly because quotation marks are specifically designed to enclose speech, and many, if not all, books and reading material use quotation marks. When you are not talking, it is standard not to use any marking. I've seen those who use asteriks to show actions and narration and nothing to specify spoken word; I find it confusing and ineffective. Don't confuse people. Using different colors to mark speech is another technique I've seen. It works better, if you choose the right colors and not try and blind us by using bright pink. For more than one character.The solution is simple and solvable two different ways. One, the formal way, use narration to distinguish who is speaking. For example: Quote: "Come play with me!" Erk said. You know Erk said this because I said he said it... You follow? The second, more colorful method is to adopt a color to represent when the said character is going to talk. Make sure it isn't a color already being used. If you don't want to choose a color, select something else that will help others identify who is talking, like Minimini's! YES! An icon that represents the talking character, and preferably look very similar to him/her/it. Example of Minimini =    These are a tad exclusive to Fire Emblem, I might add... Literacy within talkingI thought I should point this out while I can: Your character(s) does not have to be as literate as you. All rules of literacy do not apply to your character when they are talking. They can speak run-on sentences, fragments, misspellings, slang, plural disagreement, cryptic sentence structures... whatever, and it won't make a difference. Why? Because their literacy is their own. It is an author's ((you)) job to tell the story without being confusing, it's not your character's job. They can be as confusing as they want; it's what makes them... them! Out of Character.OOC for short. This is the act of speaking/interacting with another user as a user. It's used to chat, ask questions, point out information ((Such as this)), give instructions, etc. It is not RPing and has no impact on the story. Be sure everyone knows when you are talking OOC, or else bad things could result! The standard way of talking in OOC is by surrounding the OOC portion of a post in double parentheses. There's no arguement there, moving on. White Text!White text is, if you didn't guess, text that is white. It's purpose is to conceal the message that is white, since it will not appear naturally when the post is made. In order to reveal a white message, you must highlight the text, or Ctrl+A, which highlights everything on the page. Before you ever use White Text, allow me to warn you that you will fool a lot of people. From my experience, people will not bother highlighting anything unless they suspect it, and then it depends on how obvious you've made the white text. What should you post in White Text? Why even use it? I will admit, White text will be very rare, which may be why people don't bother looking for it. In essence, white Text is discreet OOC and it is usually some secret that would be very hard to notice, but could be noticed if one looked hard enough, hence you force the user to find it by hiding it in white text. When they complain, you point back and say, "See! I did say it! It's just in white!". Other uses are confessions, not RP related usually. I expect you to find your own clever use for white text, though. Be creative.Literacy within OOCI suppose you don't need literacy within OOC just as you don't need it within talking, but you have no excuse not to be as literate as possible. It's not REQUIRED, but highly advisable. Proper spacing.You need to separate ideas with two return commands, which is pressing the Enter key twice. This is not required at all, but you'll scare people if they see something that reminds them of a college english final examination paper... brrr... Also, separating ideas allows the reader to follow along better, they won't lose their spot so easily. If you don't know how or when to seperate thoughts, I'll cover that in a later section. This section basically covers the mechanics of RPing, and I believe it has come to an end!
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:40 pm
The second order of business is to clarify proper RPing etiquette. It's important that you know how to behave and know what not to practice in any given RP. What is God-Modding?While many may have there own definition to this word, I believe it is acting as though you are a god... or perhaps a Mod... when you shouldn't. Acts of god-modding include making oneself inexplicably very powerful, possessing immunity from damage, avioding all attacks, controlling another character other than your own, and basically all other things that we under-users just cannot do without being unfair. The key word is "fair". God-Modding---The balance of power--- All users are treated as equals, give or take some strong/weak points in certain categories. Everyone becomes stronger with experience. If you want to start off with a ludicrous amount of experience, be darn sure everyone acknowledges this and is okay with it. It is not okay to suddenly become powerful, through whatever means you could become powerful suddenly. Stay fair. God-Modding---I'm invinicible!--- No, you are not invincible. Only gods are... Only if you have a towering advantege over your opponent can you suggest immunity from damage. Or, say your opponent is unskilled and you specialize in evasion, you can say you avoid several attacks. It's when these scenerios are not the case, and yet you cannot be hurt is when things start turning south. How do you know when you should take damage? Logic, my friend. Logic is covered in another section. God-Modding---Mind Control Ray--- Even if you aren't fighting, it is possible to God-Mod by attempting to control another user's character for whatever reason you find to control him/her/it. This even includes the assumtion of another character's reaction to anything. Even if your intentions were good, don't. Control your own characters. This section is reletive to Auto-hitting, the next section. Auto-HittingAuto-hitting and God-Modding are on the same boat, but they are quite different. As the name suggests, auto-hitting is assuming the connection of any given attack you dish out at your opponent. In RPing, it is customary to at least give your opponent a chance to dodge or block any of your attacks. For example: Quote: Sain thrust his lance through Legault's arm, wounding him greatly. Vs. Quote: Sain thrust his lance at Legault's arm, hoping to wound him greatly. It's a bad example, I know, but it gets what I want to say across. The second sentence provides Leagult the oppertunity to dodge. Saying that the lance connects is in essence controlling the other character and saying he allows himself to be hit. Bad, bad, bad. Auto-Hitting---How do we damage each other, then?---If you are scared by the prospect that you will spend hours dodging each others attacks all day, keep in mind the reality of the situation. Be realistic. Is your character actually able to dodge or block said attack or string of attacks? If you are saying yes to this during every attack, you are either god-modding or your enemy is using some unusually easy to avoid attacks. The reverse holds true if your opponent is saying yes to this question all the time. Don't go out of your way to invent some bizzare situation which ultimately ends with you avoiding damage. Auto-Hitting---Instant Regeneration---Taking a hit is not good enough, you know? Listen carefully: you must also get hurt! To distance yourself from god-modding, you take neccesary hits, but if you those hits don't hurt you, they mean nothing. If you are still able to keep fighting as though you were never hit, then you defeat the purpose of getting hit. Red flags... Of course, if taking damage somehow makes you STRONGER(!), that must be okay, ya? We can call it desparation enhancements, but they are still taking damage, which is the point of getting attacked. Healing Magic is fine, Instant Regeneration is not. Getting hit hurts, and it either hinders or (magically) enhances your powers. For the most part, it'll hinders you, so act like it. Killing someoneAll you need to remember is: Killing=sin. No matter the reason, if your character kills another character that is not your own, worse yet, belongs to someone else, you are asking for a boatload of trouble. You'll probably be shortly asked to delete or edit the post depicting the killing, and in the failure of that event, everyone will ignore it. Why is killing such a sin? First off, it's god-modding and auto-hitting and all that other bad stuff, but on top of that, your firing the dying character. They are gone... forever, which is sooner than the user had expected... But they don't want to just give up their character like that based on something they had no control over. Killing a character is much more hated than normal god-modding, since death is permanent. Of course, I have yet to see someone kill someone else in an RP, so I'm sure neither you or I have nothing to worry about. Exceptions to killing are: If the character was created to die, is a minnion, or you have permission from the user controlling said character. Speed Issue: WarpingWarping is the inevitable result of someone who just wants to RP and doesn't care how it gets done. Warping is placing your character in an area of conflict solely to get involved in the conflict, despite the character's current agenda or position. Depending on when and how you did it, it could get people really, really annoyed. First off, you could be unexplainably abbandoning someone, or pressing the pause button, or you could be unrealistically travelling superfast to get to this area of conflict; warping. Better yet... you could be just coincedentally walking by the area at that exact moment and notice something out of the ordinary, something worth investigating. How cheesy does that sound to you? It sound a bit suspicious to me. Solutions to WarpingFirst, realize that your character may not qualify for participating in all conflicts, for reasons including ludicrous distance, current situation, and attitude of the character. To qualify, you must be reasonably close, lack a more pressing task, and be willing to interfere. If your character is free and unaccounted for and you MUST give him/her/it something to do, and you are sure you would logically be in the area, be sure to first state your existance in a specific place, then gradually edge your way towards said conflict. It's best to place your character somewhere they would like to be, or where they often are found. They have to discover the conflict, and 'just walking by it by chance' should not be the prefered method of choice. Use rumors, or wait until the conflict triggers an event to make the conflict more conspicuous... like if the conflict starts a fight, physical or with words. Perfect time. Don't appear from behind the nearest bush and interfere, life is never that convenient. Psychic WarpingThis is best described as "legitamit warping", although it may not be as legitamit as it seems. Theoretically, the only way to cover unlimited space instantaneously is by teleporting, assuming the character has the magical ability to teleport or be teleported by someone else. Many magic users like teleporting to places of conflict the moment it occurs, no matter where they are. I find teleporting to be an excuse, you still need reason to teleport there. Here's where "psychic" comes in. They KNOW the minute something is awry, because they are psychic, like they feel a disturbance in the force. They can feel the chaotic thoughts of another who is currently involved. One way or another, they know. It's cheesy, but they have "magic"; it's a "magic" thing. Is this allowable? My answer is yes and no. Normally, I would say no, especially if they think they are psychic and can tell what's going on everywhere in the world, but I also believe that there are situations where characters can be psychic. A small example would be the link between siblings of a magical tribe. There are almost always exceptions to most of these rules, or suggestions as they are. Speed Issue: The pause buttonOpposite to warping, we have the other end of the speed spectrum, moving 1/30th the speed of everyone around you, who are traveling at real time. This is the result of the person who is not online as often as the RPers around him/her and they don't care to wait for the user to get back online. Pressing the pause button on someone should be sin, not realistically speaking of course, because you are penalizing the slower user for being slow, regardless of whether that other user can help it or not. Three people walk up to the entrance of a temple, and one user must leave for the day. The other two proceed into the temple, solve all the puzzles, beat the boss, grab the prize at the end, escape the trap, and waltz back out before the third person even got in because the user wasn't online. How fair is that? It DOES happen! I personally have been victim to the pause button as well as victimized others with the pause button. Let me tell you, I wasn't happy when I was the victim, and they weren't happy when they were the victim. The pause button does not make people happy. I realize the pause button is sometimes REALLY hard not to push when you got something good going, but from now on, you must at least try to practice patience. Wait for others; you can be assured they would have something very meaningful to say, rather than be left behind. Speed Issue: Zero mphGone. No more. Not even a trace. The user has disappeared, nowhere to be found. They travel at zero mph and time for them have stopped. You don't want to push the pause button on them, because you just finished reading how bad the pause button is! Therefore, you also pause, with false hope that they will one day return and resume the RP. Days pass, you start to feel the air around you dampen, you tremble with impatience, fear engulfs you... Behold the true RP killer, the one of Zero mph. Nothing kills an RP like an unactive member who is vital. How can you amend something like this, which you have no control over? You can't... You can't make a user post; that's impossible. It's never going to happen unless you know that person in real life and can force them to do things. What do you do? Do you give up all that hard work to make a successful RP? Of course not. You, most unfortunately, must manage without them. It's that, or you must defer control of the character to someone else. Both routes are a shame, but the real shame lies with the one of Zero mph. It's hard to diagnos this, because so many factors play in the fate of the one of zero mph. I'll update this when my diagnosis is complete. What is Spam?Spam is unwanted or unneccesary material within the contents of a post. It could be some irrelevant picture, OOC posting, advertising, and other near random things that the RP could have done better without. Everyone dislikes spam, so why they bother putting it up is beyond me. I guess they only think about themselves when they post spam. While I'm at unwanted things in a post.Quote boxes. They are intended to clarify what you are responding to, to prevent confusion. 1 or 2 in a single post is okay. Anything more is a sign of laziness. I scorn the use of excessive quotes and you should too. Delete anything past 2, it doesn't take that much time or effort. This does not include if you are responding to one post, and then replying to a completely different post. What peeves me is a quote within a quote within a quote etc. etc. It just takes up space. Acronyms...Acronyms are abbreviations for a word or group of words. An example is the ever infamous lol, which stands for "Laugh out loud". Supposedly, it makes it easier to communicate the feeling of laughing in three, easy to type letters. Unfortunately, acronyms are not professional and should stay out of the professional RP. This also goes for other forms of chat speak and... ... how say it... 1337? Exaggerations are *EMPHASIS!*Yeah, it's a pretty stupid title, isn't it? Anyways, this section goes over techniques that add emphasis to words or groups of words. Emphasis gives a word prominence and adds effect to the text being emphasized depending on where it was used. It makes it easier to notice, and people often have easier times remembering emphasized words. If you want people to remember something, emphasize it! In dialouge, emphasis signals when a person raises his or her voice or speaks in a tone different than what he or she normally talks in. There are various techniques to distuinguish emphasis, and they all are effective. BoldUnderline*Astrik* ItalicCAPITALIZE Basically anything that sets it apart from your normal text. What is flaming?Flaming is the result if you practice any of the above things I have mentioned, or it can be the trademark of an unwanted user. Flaming is the art of speaking down. It comes in two flavors: Insult and Scold. Insult is when someone is looking for trouble and decides to pick you. Scold is when you do something worthy of reprimand and someone decides to speak up. It's easy to confuse the two, since they are very alike in what you will hear. For example: Quote: ((Your such a fluxin NooB! take your crap somewhere else!)) Vs. Quote: ((I don't appreiciate you fluxing killing my character!)) One, you deserved it, the other you didn't. However, deserve it or not, flaming is not tolerated in any RP. "Take it to the PMs" as they say. If someone is making you angry, flame over PMs and leave us out of it. Violence need not concern those who have no buisness, or don't want to have business with it. Is someone is flaming someone else, do all you can to make him stop ASAP, even if you have to inform a mod. Prefered course of action is warning, then throw down the BAN HAMMER if they don't desist! If there is one thing that brings down RPing morale, it is an angry customer. ((Sections will be updated as I see fit.))
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Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:42 pm
Things only get more intresting from here, I'm pretty sure. Here is where I go over the beginnings of legendary RPs. To make an RP good, lots of prior planning is recommended.
The Rule of Lists First off, you should know my rule of lists. ANY list I give in this post and the ones after this only scratch the surface of that subject they pertain to. They are standard, average, normal, cliched. I do not want you to limit yourself to the items on any given list. Broaden you horizons, be creative, yet reasonable. If I say every RPG team consists of 1 warrior, 1 wizard, 1 cleric/monk, 1 dwarf, and 1 elf, go ahead and alter that list to your desires. In fact, you can make everyone a warrior! It's up to you really. Lists I give you only serve to get you started.
The Ol' Profile. With normal RPs, you are normally supposed to submit these things called Profiles before you are allowed to enter. Profiles are helpful to let other people know what kind of person your character is, sort of a visual without pictures. What a profile consists of solely depends on what the person who made the RP wants you to reveal about your character, so it may very from RP to RP. Use profiles to give other users a 411 on the character you're going to introduce. However, stick to the basics, things that are easy to find out about your character. There are many secrets that you should not air to other people... unless of course, your character does not have any sercets and is boring. By secrets, I mean things your character would not want to share about his or herself to others; like what happens when the full moon is out or what tragic event took the lives of his or her parents so long ago. You dig?
The Character. No matter who your character(s) is, you must know your character inside and out. Making it up as you go poses the possibilty of loopholes or weakens the character's authority. I normally recommend that you preplan 90% of your character before actually using him/her/it, and that's only if you can't think up the last 10%. You at least have a good majority of your character thought out and you won't leave much to be desired, and by the time you do, you'll have that 10% figured out. Here's the formula for a character you must determine:
All the things concerning outer appearance. This is the RP world. You can make your character look any way you want as long as you stay decent. What you should be concerned about is how you are going to tell others what your character looks like. My advice is to be simple and vauge, stick to outer clothing, skin and hair colors, and weapons worn out in the open. If you want to mention discreet things like marks and accessories that may prove to be important in the future, keep them discreet. Make small referance of them and try not to make note of them again until whatever makes them important arises. Hopefully, people will forget about it and you'll catch them by total suprise!
Attitude, the flavor of life. Ordinary personalities will simply not do unless you are in an ordinary RP, which only calls for ordinary characters. We run dynamic RPs, and thus, you should have dynamic attitudes for your characters. Stay away from people who watch life go by, you need to stick out and come up with a genuinely unique personality for your character, something other people can grow attached to. You have to get to personally know what makes your character tick and how it does it and why it does it. I certainly cannot tell you what sort of personality to give your characters, that decision is soley up to you, but make it something worth remembering. Don't have your personality traits contradict, allow it to have relevance to the story, and if you're brave enough, make it contradict the ideals of another character, so that conflict is created. Conflict is discussed later on.
Bios: A thing of the Past. Bios are summaries of the past of your character, normally containing information about all the important thing that have happened in the character's life. It's a history report, simply put. It normally tries to explain the actions of what your character does now and in the future, since every action that happened in the past has an opposite and equal reaction that affects everything thereonafter. Normally, RP profiles will ask you to provide a history of your character. Depending on the depth of the RP, I'd suggest you don't if you are into Character Development, like I am. Bios force you to give away all the juicy secrets and life changing experiences concerning your character, and when such things become relevant, people aren't suprised anymore, since they are half expecting it.
Solution: The Report. At least, I am going to call it a Report. It's a summary, but from the 3rd person, which means things can be overlooked or mistaken or covered up. It's like pretending you are a reporter and have been assigned to study your character. You observe his or her actions, taking note of habits, emtions, and relations with others. You ask people familiar with the character what they know about him or her, and they fill you in with random facts. You place your findings in a single/double paragraph report that summarizes the character. Feel free to add speculation that could distract readers from the truth without seeming dishonest. Make them believe something other than what the truth is by providing a logical inturpretation. Hidden sercrets should be made "Confidential", so people figure that somethings up, but they can't put their finger on it exactly, leaving them anxious. When readers are anxious, it allows you to use the RPing weapon, Plot Twist!
Alignment: The Good Guys. What is a good guy? Who are the protagonists? My definition will encompass everyone who is opposing the bad guys. By opposing, I mean not supporting. This character is not a bad guy, and therefore is a good guy. There is no in between. Whenever there are good guys, there is a "Main character". This character is typically the center of the story and normally is required in everything that happens. There are 3 different types of Main characters and for the most part, if you control the main character, s/he will fall under one of these three categories.
Good Guys: The Hero The hero's sole purpose in life is to defeat the antagonist. Anything outside that comes afterwards. The hero is honorable and valorous, and normally indiscriminative. However, the hero is never perfect. Most heroes have an outstanding flaw... or two... but it never steals from his bravery. If anything, this character flaw is something that makes the character humorous or distinctive. Heroes find it easy to gain allies, because people in need are often drawn to one who can solve their problems like a hero can. The key thing about the hero is that he is quick to trust and is merciful, even though his companions may not be. This allows his enemies to manipulate him easily.
Good Guys: The Anti-Hero The anti-hero is not a villan, never make that mistake. An Anti-Hero is a hero who lacks the ennobling qualities of a hero. They are normally cold-hearted and not very friendly. For the most part, they enjoy violence and in their efforts to destroy the enemy, they will stop at nothing. Their objective is the same as the hero, but the way they go about doing it may be considered ruthless. Most anti-heroes are vigilantes, a person who works above the law to punish crime. They don't get along well with those of authority, and due process doesn't really exist for them. Unlike the hero, they trust very few people, making it hard to manipulate them. However, they aren't winning any popularity contests, not that they would want to though...
Good Guys: The Loner Even more isolated than an Anti-Hero, the Loner does his work... you guessed it, alone. The loner is more or less an enigma that normally tends to his own needs. These needs revolve around one thing, money. For a price, he'll do anything. Other than that, he always is found doing nothing in particular, perhaps sitting around and staring in the distance... alone. Earning the trust of a loner is next to impossible, considering the fact that they trust nobody. The only reason they ever are assisted is because their help keeps following them, against their will. If they are acting on their own accord, it is normally because of one thing, revenge. Do a crime to a loner, and you'll never see the end of it.
((This section is under construction. That way, I don't lose the stuff I type when my comp decides to crash. 0.0;; ))
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:23 pm
You've waited long enough, haven't you? All this common sense stuff has been driving you nuts. Where's all the good stuff?! It starts here! In this post, I deal with basic, yet OH SO VERY IMPORTANT RPing techniques. These are things that every RPer should know, but can be easily untouched. These are the...
RPing Rules of Thumb: Know them. These are essential ingredients to taking your RPing to the next level. They help you avoid the one-liners, they add depth to your stroies and characters, they cure all diseases... well, not that last part... Nonetheless, it would be in your best intrest to invest in these techniques!
Rule 1: Logic
Rule 2: Elaboration
((Rest assured that there are more and I will elaborate on them as well... I just haven't had my coffee today. xp ))
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