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Sapphina
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:57 pm


I'm sorry but animal rights activists who are engaged in this kind of behavior are terrorists.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:27 am


But I do love that the author of the article points out the hypocrisies of animal rights people. If only the animal rights people would realize just how hypocritical they are.

Every single product (except for stuff like paper and clothes and electronics, probably) that humans use these days have, at some point, been tested on animals. Even if the label says, "Not animal tested," the components of it were at some point tested on animals to check if it was safe to use on humans. So unless they don't bathe, don't use medicines, and don't wash their hands, they're using animals-tested products.

Besides. Not all animal testing is done for humans' benefit. There's plenty of research for finding innoculations for animals, too. All those nifty vaccines your dog or cat gets at the vet? Animal tested.

Do these people think of these things? Of course not. That would make sense.

NightIntent


divineseraph

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:47 pm


Animal testing is not right. Just because it has been done in the past does not justify it's use.

I accept case studies and biological specimens. However, I disagree with toxicology testing. It is cruel and inhumane. I don't care about killing animals, we do so thousands of times a day for the meat industry. It's the long-term suffering that is an issue. To invoke suffering is idiotic, barbaric and cruel, regardless of wether or not the animal can put it's pain into linguistic articulation.

I realize that toxicology is a fairly small portion of animal testing, but it is still morally and ethically wrong.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:52 pm


divineseraph
Animal testing is not right. Just because it has been done in the past does not justify it's use.

I accept case studies and biological specimens. However, I disagree with toxicology testing. It is cruel and inhumane. I don't care about killing animals, we do so thousands of times a day for the meat industry. It's the long-term suffering that is an issue. To invoke suffering is idiotic, barbaric and cruel, regardless of wether or not the animal can put it's pain into linguistic articulation.

I realize that toxicology is a fairly small portion of animal testing, but it is still morally and ethically wrong.

I'd like to see people eat their words. =/ Fine, try to stop all animal testing on cosmetics, shampoos, etc. Then don't press charges on a company when said products get in your eye and cause damage. That's why companies are still doing it. People have, can, and will press charges and sue for all they can if a product isn't adequately tested and causes harm to them.

I don't particularly agree with harming animals for cosmetic purposes either, but at the moment all the alternative options just aren't good enough to cover all the bases. Some companies have stopped doing animal testing, yes. But all the ingredients they use in their new products have been tested in the past, either by them or another company. If it hasn't been tested, they can't use it. The government requires it.

For all forms of laboratory testing, there are regulations that have to be followed. A veterinarian is on the committee to approve all tests on animals, to ensure that no animal endures undue pain or suffering. I'm sure some cosmetics companies don't follow them. But that's what inspections are for. Yes, some animals have to endure pain. But they're also reducing the number of those animals--it used to be six, it's now three--and the animals are generally humanely killed after the experiment is done. Better than some slaughter houses. They're also using anesthesia when appropriate, so that they can note the irritancy levels without the animals feeling the pain of it. All the animal rights groups, especially ones like Animal Liberation Foundation (which, by the way, is a recognized terrorist group on the FBI's list), have gotten through to the companies and they're trying to change. Change does take a long time, like anything else worthwhile. Animals are a lot better off now than they were thirty years ago.

I apologize if any of this offends you. I just have strong feelings on the topic.

NightIntent


divineseraph

PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:52 pm


NightIntent
divineseraph
Animal testing is not right. Just because it has been done in the past does not justify it's use.

I accept case studies and biological specimens. However, I disagree with toxicology testing. It is cruel and inhumane. I don't care about killing animals, we do so thousands of times a day for the meat industry. It's the long-term suffering that is an issue. To invoke suffering is idiotic, barbaric and cruel, regardless of wether or not the animal can put it's pain into linguistic articulation.

I realize that toxicology is a fairly small portion of animal testing, but it is still morally and ethically wrong.

I'd like to see people eat their words. =/ Fine, try to stop all animal testing on cosmetics, shampoos, etc. Then don't press charges on a company when said products get in your eye and cause damage. That's why companies are still doing it. People have, can, and will press charges and sue for all they can if a product isn't adequately tested and causes harm to them.

I don't particularly agree with harming animals for cosmetic purposes either, but at the moment all the alternative options just aren't good enough to cover all the bases. Some companies have stopped doing animal testing, yes. But all the ingredients they use in their new products have been tested in the past, either by them or another company. If it hasn't been tested, they can't use it. The government requires it.

For all forms of laboratory testing, there are regulations that have to be followed. A veterinarian is on the committee to approve all tests on animals, to ensure that no animal endures undue pain or suffering. I'm sure some cosmetics companies don't follow them. But that's what inspections are for. Yes, some animals have to endure pain. But they're also reducing the number of those animals--it used to be six, it's now three--and the animals are generally humanely killed after the experiment is done. Better than some slaughter houses. They're also using anesthesia when appropriate, so that they can note the irritancy levels without the animals feeling the pain of it. All the animal rights groups, especially ones like Animal Liberation Foundation (which, by the way, is a recognized terrorist group on the FBI's list), have gotten through to the companies and they're trying to change. Change does take a long time, like anything else worthwhile. Animals are a lot better off now than they were thirty years ago.

I apologize if any of this offends you. I just have strong feelings on the topic.


I am a communist, and I believe there should be no capital to sue over.

But we know the basic compounds. No idiot is going to make a shampoo that's 75% Hydrochloric Acid or anything like that. The only real difference should be the fragrance, and all that is is varying plant matter which we should know well enough now to tell the difference between toxic and non-toxic.

Sure, there can be slight variations, but we know pretty well what will and will not kill us. We don't need to know the exact amount at the expense of the suffering of thousands of animals. It's just not right.

And government sanctioning does not make for a just act. Look at the Holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or Dresden for proof of that.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:40 pm


Fragrances are actually the most common skin irritants in creams and moisturizers.

Animals testing is nowhere near the level of the Holocaust or Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You know the terrorist organization that I mentioned before, ALF? They agree with the Animal Welfare Act. The opponents of the Holocaust didn't agree with the government's actions, but this terrorist organization on a crusade against animal testing does. The government's apparently doing something right there.

I never said it was right. I'm not trying to argue the morality of it. But until there's a feasible way that's as good as or better than animal testing that becomes widespread, there's no good alternative. There are alternatives that they use when they can, which I believe I mentioned earlier. They're just not as reliable. Yet.

NightIntent


divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:30 am


NightIntent
Fragrances are actually the most common skin irritants in creams and moisturizers.

Animals testing is nowhere near the level of the Holocaust or Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You know the terrorist organization that I mentioned before, ALF? They agree with the Animal Welfare Act. The opponents of the Holocaust didn't agree with the government's actions, but this terrorist organization on a crusade against animal testing does. The government's apparently doing something right there.

I never said it was right. I'm not trying to argue the morality of it. But until there's a feasible way that's as good as or better than animal testing that becomes widespread, there's no good alternative. There are alternatives that they use when they can, which I believe I mentioned earlier. They're just not as reliable. Yet.


Of course they are nowhere near those disasters. But the point remains- those acts were still government sanctioned, and animal testing is still government sanctioned. Not everything that is government sanctioned is wrong, but being government sanctioned doesn't always make it right, either.

And I say we should perfect those methods as soon as possible. Continuing to ignore suffering that we are creating for such fleeting reasons as cosmetic beauty is just barbaric.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:44 am


divineseraph
NightIntent
divineseraph
Animal testing is not right. Just because it has been done in the past does not justify it's use.

I accept case studies and biological specimens. However, I disagree with toxicology testing. It is cruel and inhumane. I don't care about killing animals, we do so thousands of times a day for the meat industry. It's the long-term suffering that is an issue. To invoke suffering is idiotic, barbaric and cruel, regardless of wether or not the animal can put it's pain into linguistic articulation.

I realize that toxicology is a fairly small portion of animal testing, but it is still morally and ethically wrong.

I'd like to see people eat their words. =/ Fine, try to stop all animal testing on cosmetics, shampoos, etc. Then don't press charges on a company when said products get in your eye and cause damage. That's why companies are still doing it. People have, can, and will press charges and sue for all they can if a product isn't adequately tested and causes harm to them.

I don't particularly agree with harming animals for cosmetic purposes either, but at the moment all the alternative options just aren't good enough to cover all the bases. Some companies have stopped doing animal testing, yes. But all the ingredients they use in their new products have been tested in the past, either by them or another company. If it hasn't been tested, they can't use it. The government requires it.

For all forms of laboratory testing, there are regulations that have to be followed. A veterinarian is on the committee to approve all tests on animals, to ensure that no animal endures undue pain or suffering. I'm sure some cosmetics companies don't follow them. But that's what inspections are for. Yes, some animals have to endure pain. But they're also reducing the number of those animals--it used to be six, it's now three--and the animals are generally humanely killed after the experiment is done. Better than some slaughter houses. They're also using anesthesia when appropriate, so that they can note the irritancy levels without the animals feeling the pain of it. All the animal rights groups, especially ones like Animal Liberation Foundation (which, by the way, is a recognized terrorist group on the FBI's list), have gotten through to the companies and they're trying to change. Change does take a long time, like anything else worthwhile. Animals are a lot better off now than they were thirty years ago.

I apologize if any of this offends you. I just have strong feelings on the topic.


I am a communist, and I believe there should be no capital to sue over.



However; reality is not currently bowing to your beliefs so we have to accept that the world is the way it is, not the way we want it to be. Your personal political beliefs in no way invalidate the reality or the argument NI has used.

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divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:40 pm


Storm_Airielle
divineseraph
NightIntent
divineseraph
Animal testing is not right. Just because it has been done in the past does not justify it's use.

I accept case studies and biological specimens. However, I disagree with toxicology testing. It is cruel and inhumane. I don't care about killing animals, we do so thousands of times a day for the meat industry. It's the long-term suffering that is an issue. To invoke suffering is idiotic, barbaric and cruel, regardless of wether or not the animal can put it's pain into linguistic articulation.

I realize that toxicology is a fairly small portion of animal testing, but it is still morally and ethically wrong.

I'd like to see people eat their words. =/ Fine, try to stop all animal testing on cosmetics, shampoos, etc. Then don't press charges on a company when said products get in your eye and cause damage. That's why companies are still doing it. People have, can, and will press charges and sue for all they can if a product isn't adequately tested and causes harm to them.

I don't particularly agree with harming animals for cosmetic purposes either, but at the moment all the alternative options just aren't good enough to cover all the bases. Some companies have stopped doing animal testing, yes. But all the ingredients they use in their new products have been tested in the past, either by them or another company. If it hasn't been tested, they can't use it. The government requires it.

For all forms of laboratory testing, there are regulations that have to be followed. A veterinarian is on the committee to approve all tests on animals, to ensure that no animal endures undue pain or suffering. I'm sure some cosmetics companies don't follow them. But that's what inspections are for. Yes, some animals have to endure pain. But they're also reducing the number of those animals--it used to be six, it's now three--and the animals are generally humanely killed after the experiment is done. Better than some slaughter houses. They're also using anesthesia when appropriate, so that they can note the irritancy levels without the animals feeling the pain of it. All the animal rights groups, especially ones like Animal Liberation Foundation (which, by the way, is a recognized terrorist group on the FBI's list), have gotten through to the companies and they're trying to change. Change does take a long time, like anything else worthwhile. Animals are a lot better off now than they were thirty years ago.

I apologize if any of this offends you. I just have strong feelings on the topic.


I am a communist, and I believe there should be no capital to sue over.



However; reality is not currently bowing to your beliefs so we have to accept that the world is the way it is, not the way we want it to be. Your personal political beliefs in no way invalidate the reality or the argument NI has used.


This is true. But, I wouldn't sue anyway. I would likely use the reasoning of "Let's not get this soap in my eye". And if I did get soap in my eye, who's fault is that for failing at shower?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:52 pm


divineseraph
Of course they are nowhere near those disasters. But the point remains- those acts were still government sanctioned, and animal testing is still government sanctioned. Not everything that is government sanctioned is wrong, but being government sanctioned doesn't always make it right, either.

And I say we should perfect those methods as soon as possible. Continuing to ignore suffering that we are creating for such fleeting reasons as cosmetic beauty is just barbaric.

I do like how you ignore all the points that I make that you don't have an argument against. neutral Like I said, even the opponents of animal testing agree with the steps the government is currently taking to get away from animal testing. And again like I said, they're trying to find different ways to test things. All things worth doing take time. If you don't like it, become a scientist and find feasible alternatives to animal testing. Nothing like adding your own efforts in to speed things up.

NightIntent


NightIntent

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:54 pm


divineseraph
This is true. But, I wouldn't sue anyway. I would likely use the reasoning of "Let's not get this soap in my eye". And if I did get soap in my eye, who's fault is that for failing at shower?

And whose fault is it for ignoring the warnings on a hot cup of coffee and spilling it on themselves because they put it between their legs? Not McDonald's. But they still got taken to court and settled for a large sum of money. Fair? No. But that's how the world--particularly the U.S.--works. And if companies are trying to save themselves these expenses and bad press, who can blame them?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:34 pm


NightIntent
divineseraph
Of course they are nowhere near those disasters. But the point remains- those acts were still government sanctioned, and animal testing is still government sanctioned. Not everything that is government sanctioned is wrong, but being government sanctioned doesn't always make it right, either.

And I say we should perfect those methods as soon as possible. Continuing to ignore suffering that we are creating for such fleeting reasons as cosmetic beauty is just barbaric.

I do like how you ignore all the points that I make that you don't have an argument against. neutral Like I said, even the opponents of animal testing agree with the steps the government is currently taking to get away from animal testing. And again like I said, they're trying to find different ways to test things. All things worth doing take time. If you don't like it, become a scientist and find feasible alternatives to animal testing. Nothing like adding your own efforts in to speed things up.

I'm not arguing that point because I agree. Steps are being taken, and this is good. Thus, I don't need to counter it with anything.

But, the fact that steps are being taken doesn't change the now and doesn't change my opinion on the matter. It's still wrong, wether it is legal, illegal or becoming illegal.

divineseraph


divineseraph

PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:36 pm


NightIntent
divineseraph
This is true. But, I wouldn't sue anyway. I would likely use the reasoning of "Let's not get this soap in my eye". And if I did get soap in my eye, who's fault is that for failing at shower?

And whose fault is it for ignoring the warnings on a hot cup of coffee and spilling it on themselves because they put it between their legs? Not McDonald's. But they still got taken to court and settled for a large sum of money. Fair? No. But that's how the world--particularly the U.S.--works. And if companies are trying to save themselves these expenses and bad press, who can blame them?


And suing for that is bullshit. There will always be takers. If they can't sue for that, they will just have to find a wet floor to slip on. I dislike that practice of suing for everything. It happens, yes, but it's also usually for idiotic reasons. That's a problem with our legal system.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:02 pm


I agree with NightIntent that animal testing is wrong. However, I don't think that it is atrociously wrong, and where there is no option other than animal testing, I think it's okay.

RedTatsu


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:26 am


Unfortunately our choices come down to testing on animals or testing on humans. I personally, being a human being and having a sense of preservation of my own species, feel that saving a human life is more important than saving an animal life.

That being said, killing animals for sport or whatever frivolous reason and causing their extinction is a moral wrong of epic proportions. On the most practical level, no animal we use for testing will ever go extinct since they are valuable to us.

Quite the conundrum there, is it not?
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The Dusty Underbelly of Academia

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