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Flex Your Apologetic Muscles: Mary Debate

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aoijea23487

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:24 pm


I was talking to a Protestant at the church I volunteer with and Mary came up. This is her reply to my questions about Protestant teaching on Mary:

Quote:
The parting of ways comes, I think, with the beliefs about just who Mary was besides being the physical mother of Jesus. Catholic belief, as best as I can understand it, says that she was a perfect human being, unfallen, without sin, and therefore afforded a special status in the Kingdom of Heaven based on her own merits. They recognize her as still being a created being, but essentially an unfallen human being, as Adam and Eve were before their sin. Thus, she is worthy and powerful to be prayed to, asking her to intercede on one's behalf to God.

Protestants take a different view. They believe that while Mary was "blessed among women" and chosen for an extremely special task, and was probably a girl of strong integrity and purity, she was still an ordinary imperfect human being. There is Biblical evidence for this. Mark 3:21 and 31-35 say clearly (to me) that at one point in Jesus's career, Mary decided that He'd gone insane and she actually went to rein Him in. You can try to claim that this is an honest mistake rather than a sin, or try to wriggle out of it some other way, but in my mind it just doesn't compute if she was truly "perfect."

More importantly, Romans 3:23 says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Jesus is obviously the exception to this since He *is* God, but there is no room for other exceptions there. Unless you claim Mary is actually divine, this verse is problematic.

Catholics also say that Mary not only was a virgin at the time she conceived Jesus and remained a virgin until after he was born (which is clearly in the Bible-- see Matthew 1:25), but that she remained a virgin all her life. I even once saw a Catholic scholar explain why Joseph also remained chaste all his life so that the "Holy Family" was "perfect." This is a nice tidy idea that just isn't supported by scripture. For one thing, it assumes that there's something "dirty" about sex and that Mary and Joseph would somehow be degraded if they engaged in it, even as a married couple after the birth of Jesus. I disagree with that view-- God made sex to be enjoyed in the context of marriage, and there's nothing degrading about it. The verse above, Matthew 1:25, says that they did not come together "until" after the birth of Jesus. That does not conclusively prove that they DID have sex afterwards, but the implication is certainly there.

Furthermore, Mark 3 above talks about the "mother and brothers" of Jesus. I've heard this variously explained as Joseph's sons by a previous marriage (in which case they would be step-brothers) or cousins (in which case they're not brothers at all). But James, for example, is referred to as Jesus's brother even outside the Gospels (Galatians 1:19). The most probable explanation to me is that he is Jesus's younger half-brother, the son of Mary and Joseph.

I go through all that to explain the factual basis of my problem with the Catholic teaching, but I don't think any of those details are really very important. What *is* important, in my opinion, is the attitude you take towards Mary now. The tendency in Catholic theology is to put "buffers" between ordinary Christians and God. Direct interaction with God is limited, and a lot seems to go through priests, saints, and Mary. My problem with this is that it's just not the pattern in the Bible. I Timothy 2:5 says clearly that Jesus is the only mediator between God and man. Nowhere in the New Testament do you see people praying to Mary or any other human being. When you put a human being in the place that should be occupied by God, that's idolatry.

As I understand it, Catholic teaching does not actually attribute divinity to Mary. Prayers directed "to" her are actually supposed to be directed "through" her to God. In practice, however, God seems to get left out of the picture. You ask Mary for something and you get it, and you thank her, as if she were the one supplying your needs. I don't see any basis in scripture for that.

So back to your original question... is Mary the "Mother of God"? She's the mother of Jesus-- she physically existed before He took human form in the timeline of earth, and gave birth to Him-- but "Mother of God" implies to me that she somehow existed before God or was the origin of God. So that phrase makes me very uncomfortable. So does "Queen of Heaven." That phrase evokes a lot of the pagan religions that worshipped a female deity, the "earth mother" religions. It appears nowhere in scripture but makes a nice stepping-stone for pagan tribes who wanted to embrace Christianity without really giving up their old beliefs.

I certainly think Mary, blessed among women, will occupy a place of honor in heaven, but I don't think she's "the queen" there. God is the King and His power has no rival. The Church is the bride of Christ, but no single human being is a fit consort for deity.


I think that last bit dealt a hit to nuns and sisters. ):

Rebuttals?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:09 pm


The term "Queen of Heaven" comes from the Revelations 12. The imagery of the female in this verse, is most certainly Mary, who birthed Christ, the Son of God. The Dragon that appears in this verse, is Satan, seeking to devour the Christ child, but God saves His son, and Mary seeks protection in the desert. Which is what had actually happened. Mary and Joseph had fled to the desert to escape King Herod, who had sought to kill all male infants in order to get rid of Jesus, Christ. The imagery in these verses describes Mary as royalty, as a Queen, hence the term, Queen of Heaven. Here is a link that speaks of several points concerning this topic, in which each point includes scriptural basis: Mary, Queen of Heaven.

For instance, here are two points that are often overlooked by Protestants:
Queen of Heaven Site
Elizabeth's prescient greeting to Mary must have been inspired by the Holy Spirit; otherwise, how could Elizabeth have known that Mary was carrying the Messiah? Elizabeth's statement, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" is so radical as to be blasphemous -- that is, if it is not true. For, by using this phrasing, the Gospel writer, inspired by the the Holy Spirit, is telling us in no uncertain terms who Mary is, and who her child is. He is recalling David's reaction to the news of the death of Uzzah, who was struck down by God for the simple offense of touching the ark as he tried to keep it from tipping off a cart.

As 2 Sam. 6: 8-9 reads:

"David was disturbed because the Lord had vented his anger on Uzzah. (The place has been called Perez-ussah down to the present day.) David feared the Lord that day and said, 'Who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?' So David would not have the ark of the Lord brought to him in the City of David, but diverted it to the house of Obed-edom the Gittite."

When we deny the role of Mary in the Incarnation mystery, we are contradicting the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit who, through the inspired evangelist Luke, clearly indicates that Mary is the ark of the new covenant. Any educated Jewish man of the first century would have understood this reference immediately and would have concluded that Mary is due far greater reverence -- and awe -- than the Old Testament archetype, the ark itself.

And all this is beside the fact that, as a much older woman, Elizabeth gives deference to Mary in a way that is so shocking it is almost scandalous. In the rigid Hebrew society of Jesus' time, the hierarchy of the family was based strictly upon age. One suspects that is why Mary traveled to Elizabeth in the first place -- as a younger relative, Mary would have been expected to go to help out her elder cousin. So for Elizabeth to address Mary in this way -- "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" -- would have been unheard of.

Point Seven

We see more evidence of Mary's role as the ark of the new covenant and Queen of Heaven in Rev. 11: 19, where we read: "Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm."

The next verse -- which is separated by a chapter notation which, as you well know, wasn't added until some 800 or 1,000 years later -- reads, "A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun."
Now, taken together, in its uninterrupted form -- as it was originally written by John -- this passage reads:

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child..."


The woman seen in the sky is a 'sign' that follows the revelation of the ark in the temple. The association is unmistakable.


I find it interesting how the author of this article points out that indeed the chapter notation cuts Saint John's description of this vision in half. However, I think it is important to note that when Christ instituted the New Covenant, He took everything into account, including how there was an Ark in the Old Covenant - Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. This is a part of the discussion that is rarely touched by a Protestant, and in all honesty, I wonder if they even know of this part of the theology?

Also, here is the EWTN response that may provide more insight into why these allegations keep cropping up: EWTN Answers: Mary, Mother of God

This article includes the early Church fathers thoughts on Mary, the Mother of God:
Mary, Mother of God

The problem, from what I glean of her response, is that your Protestant friend accepts that Mary is indeed the Mother of God, whoever, she holds qualm with the title "Queen of Heaven," which I already addressed, and the idea that the Catholic Church asserts that Mary was without sin. This teaching I will try to summarize to the best of my ability: Mary was born without sin in order to avoid original sin, the imperfect nature of humanity from which we have inherited from Adam and Eve. This is to prepare Mary for bearing Christ, the Son of God, in order that Christ may be conceived in a pure, virgin womb that is free of all original sin. Christ will not inherit Adam and Eve's sin, and indeed, will be the one to finally redeem their sin, and rid it from us. This is where the belief in Mary being without sin is derived.

This inherently makes logical sense because if Adam and Eve's sin is inherited by each human being, then for Christ to be born without the taint of Adam and Eve's sin, the mother who bears Him, must be without that taint as well. God had planned this from the beginning, and so prepared Mary for such an incredible honor and gift - Christ conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of this young, virgin mother-to-be.

Christ is God, and since Christ is Mary's child, and Mary is the mother of Christ, by logical deduction, Mary is the Mother of God. This is where this term is derived.

Also, I do not see how the verses she listed says clearly that Mary decided Christ was insane and choose to "rein Him in." It says merely that His mother and brothers were calling to Him, and Christ chose to take this opportunity to teach a valuable lesson concerning who is mother and brothers truly are - those that listen and heed the Will of God. The verses do not go into detail as to why Mary, Christ's mother chose to call to Him. The verses are vague in that sense. Did Mary come to warn her son that their home village is growing more hostile toward Him? He is healing on the Sabbath, which is against the rules of their society, and this is angering the Jewish Leaders, and placing Christ in danger. Mary, obviously loves her son, and may wish for Him to be more careful, to be more prudent, and she may be concerned that in His zeal to proclaim God's Word, He may place Himself in grave danger, and so she came to warn Him. Or did she indeed come to rein Him in, concerned He had indeed lost His senses? To ask Him to be less a trouble-maker? What were her motives? The verses simply are not clear. They merely state that she and Christ's brothers came to Him, calling for Him.

These verses are too vague to state with certainty that Mary was imperfect or even perfect. These verses really give no inclination as to the state of Mary's soul. It merely gives us a vague image of Mary's concern, but what exactly concerns her? Has He lost his senses? Or these the thoughts of the majority of the town, which concerned Mary in the first place? What is attributed to whom?

That is the qualm I have with your Protestant friend citing those verses.

Once again it is a slightly disorganized rebuttal, but at the moment, its mostly to lay a groundwork for more discussion into the matter.

Anarya

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