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 Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:35 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:09 am
This just pushed me to re-read the book of Revelation. Since the last time I've read it was two summers ago.
Let me read it again and I'll come back to you.
And... I believe we should believe the whole Bible, actually.
Because the Bible is God's word, and if we believe it only part way, wouldn't that be like believing in God part way?
I'm not into that.
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Salty the Rockstar Captain
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:56 am
Yay! Great questions! Lemme see if I can take a whack at it.
1. Children are innocent until they can judge right from wrong, it doesn't matter where the parents stand.
2. Jesus would vomit out people who are lukewarm. Lukewarm means that you're only half believing and half unbelieving.. Half with God and half with the world. There's no room in heaven for lukewarm people.
3. Um. No. That totally goes against scripture. It has always been about faith and it will always be about Faith.
4. Jesus said, "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another" I don't think 'rule with an iron rod' is in the bible.
The book of Revelation is as vital as any other book. Sure it's pretty deep with a lot of things we can't fully understand, it's still 100% scripture. Try focusing your study time on a different book for now, save Revelation until you are ready to be open and receive what it would teach you.
But don't dare cross it out. It truly is sacred.
But I'm really not surprised. It's a tough read that's for sure! Who wouldn't have lots of questions. But I'm sure it'll all become clear with time.
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Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 9:32 am
Lalalalalalaa! ♪ Can I get the scripture reference to all of those questions?? Because some of them seem so out of the blue.
Would Jesus kill little children because their parents sinned?
I think your thoughts got mixed up from something else in the Old Testament.
Would Jesus vomit you and me out of the Kingdom of heaven for being only luke warm?
Jesus used that as a parable to describe the awful feeling God gets when His children hide their light and conform to the world that He redeemed them of. He didn’t mean it literally.
Would Jesus change salvation by faith back to salvation by works?
No. Jehovah’s Witness believe that the only way to get into Heaven is to do good works, but Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." - John 14:6
Would Jesus direct his disciples to rule with an "iron rod" instead of love?
1 Corinthians 13:2 says, "If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I everything about everything, but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody." (New Living Translation)
Would Jesus send you to hell for not believing every word of the Book of Revelation?
It disappoints Jesus to see people read Revelation, not understand it, than get offended and close-minded and threat to mark it out. But he won’t send them to hell. Hell was not meant for humans, ya' know. I was built as a prison for Satan and his followers. The last thing He wants is to send His beloved children to hell. (No matter what the secular media has implied BOOBOO: RETARDED SECULAR TELEVISION!!!)
-With lots of heart , Taylor.
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Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:10 am
@ Salty and TaylorI believe the questions he is asking are referring to during and after the Rapture, which is described in the book of Revelation. Your answers apply only before the Rapture. During and after the Rapture things will be completely different, therefore calling for different answers to his questions. After re-reading Revelation and discussing it with others, I have answers that apply to AFTER the rapture. So... Mr. Peacecorps: peacecorps333 The Book of Revelation (Questions to ask) Would Jesus kill little children because their parents sinned? Would Jesus vomit you and me out of the Kingdom of heaven for being only luke warm? Would Jesus change salvation by faith back to salvation by works? Would Jesus direct his disciples to rule with an "iron rod" instead of love? Would Jesus send you to hell for not believing every word of the Book of Revelation? The Book of Revelation should be crossed out in every Bible. Go get a pen, pencil, or marker. I have no answer for Question #1 as I don't know the reference. 2. Yes. If we do not believe in God and what He has done for us fully we will not be accepted into Heaven. Period. 3. After Jesus' second coming? YES. During the rapture, God will take all the people who, wholeheartedly, believe in Him, with no physical proof. That is why it's 'Faith'. AFTER the rapture, God will give everyone else physical proof of his existence. This is Jesus' second coming. After there is proof we can no longer operate on Faith alone. We need to prove ourselves to get into heaven at that point. 4. Yes. Right now, BEFORE the rapture, we can afford to love. That is because right now, we are trying to get as many people 'on God's side' as possible. AFTER the rapture, if you aren't on God's side, then you're on Satan's by default. Sinners have had their chance by then, now God and His followers need to crack down on Sin. But that doesn't mean that we won't be doing it out of love. As Christians, we are instructed to love. Out of love we will try to bring as many people to God, but at that point love will not be enough. It's like an intervention. Yes, we are using force. But we're doing it out of love. 5. Why not? "All scripture is God breathed" 2 Tim. 3:16 Last I checked Revelations is still part of The Word, our Bible.
"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God." (John 1:1) See? "The Word was God" This brings me back to Answer 2 and what I said in my previous post: If we don't believe in The Bible ALL THE WAY, then we don't believe in God ALL THE WAY. If we don't believe in God ALL THE WAY, we aren't going to heaven. Since I like to save space: peacecorps333 The Book of Revelation Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work. John Calvin had grave doubts about its value. Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams". I don't care who they were and how influential they were, they were wrong. The book of Revelation is VITAL to Christianity because it speaks of Jesus' second coming. Yes, maybe it was a dream, but that is no excuse to rule it out as a prophecy. Other prophesies in The Bible have come in the form of dreams and have come true. Don't dare cross out Revelation for any reason. It is part of God himself.
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:25 am
AFTER the rapture, God will give everyone else physical proof of his existence. This is Jesus' second coming. After there is proof we can no longer operate on Faith. We need to prove ourselves to get into heaven at that point.
Except that then, there will still be those who don't believe.
As for your question, peacecorps333, about God resorting back to works instead of faith to get into Heaven, you may want to check the book of James. Yes, we need faith in Christ, his birth, crucifixion, and resurrection to get into Heaven. However, as stated by James, faith without works is dead. If you love Christ, but do nothing to show it, what good is it?
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:11 am
Sorry, I should edit my post to 'Faith alone'. ^^;
"If you love Christ, but do nothing to show it, what good is it?"
That is a good point, James.
So would it be fair to say that (before the Rapture) Salvation is by Faith, but backed up by Works?
<Crush>//<Deviant>//<Quest>//<Comment>
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Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:20 pm
THIS IS LONG....
Salvation... We are saved by faith. Faith is backed up by works, correct.
And it wasn't my point. It was James' (Not me - Jesus' brother) point.
James 1:22-25 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it–he will be blessed in what he does."
AND
James 2:14-25 says, "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the *word I don't like* considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:49 pm
Salty the Rockstar Yay! Great questions! Lemme see if I can take a whack at it. 1. Children are innocent until they can judge right from wrong, it doesn't matter where the parents stand. 2. Jesus would vomit out people who are lukewarm. Lukewarm means that you're only half believing and half unbelieving.. Half with God and half with the world. There's no room in heaven for lukewarm people. 3. Um. No. That totally goes against scripture. It has always been about faith and it will always be about Faith. 4. Jesus said, "They will know you are my disciples by your love for one another" I don't think 'rule with an iron rod' is in the bible. The book of Revelation is as vital as any other book. Sure it's pretty deep with a lot of things we can't fully understand, it's still 100% scripture. Try focusing your study time on a different book for now, save Revelation until you are ready to be open and receive what it would teach you. But don't dare cross it out. It truly is sacred. But I'm really not surprised. It's a tough read that's for sure! Who wouldn't have lots of questions. But I'm sure it'll all become clear with time. What is a luke-warm Christian exactly?
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Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:56 pm
The Rainbow Lemon @ Salty and TaylorI believe the questions he is asking are referring to during and after the Rapture, which is described in the book of Revelation. Your answers apply only before the Rapture. During and after the Rapture things will be completely different, therefore calling for different answers to his questions. After re-reading Revelation and discussing it with others, I have answers that apply to AFTER the rapture. So... Mr. Peacecorps: peacecorps333 The Book of Revelation (Questions to ask) Would Jesus kill little children because their parents sinned? Would Jesus vomit you and me out of the Kingdom of heaven for being only luke warm? Would Jesus change salvation by faith back to salvation by works? Would Jesus direct his disciples to rule with an "iron rod" instead of love? Would Jesus send you to hell for not believing every word of the Book of Revelation? The Book of Revelation should be crossed out in every Bible. Go get a pen, pencil, or marker. I have no answer for Question #1 as I don't know the reference. 2. Yes. If we do not believe in God and what He has done for us fully we will not be accepted into Heaven. Period. 3. After Jesus' second coming? YES. During the rapture, God will take all the people who, wholeheartedly, believe in Him, with no physical proof. That is why it's 'Faith'. AFTER the rapture, God will give everyone else physical proof of his existence. This is Jesus' second coming. After there is proof we can no longer operate on Faith alone. We need to prove ourselves to get into heaven at that point. 4. Yes. Right now, BEFORE the rapture, we can afford to love. That is because right now, we are trying to get as many people 'on God's side' as possible. AFTER the rapture, if you aren't on God's side, then you're on Satan's by default. Sinners have had their chance by then, now God and His followers need to crack down on Sin. But that doesn't mean that we won't be doing it out of love. As Christians, we are instructed to love. Out of love we will try to bring as many people to God, but at that point love will not be enough. It's like an intervention. Yes, we are using force. But we're doing it out of love. 5. Why not? "All scripture is God breathed" 2 Tim. 3:16 Last I checked Revelations is still part of The Word, our Bible.
"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God." (John 1:1) See? "The Word was God" This brings me back to Answer 2 and what I said in my previous post: If we don't believe in The Bible ALL THE WAY, then we don't believe in God ALL THE WAY. If we don't believe in God ALL THE WAY, we aren't going to heaven. Since I like to save space: peacecorps333 The Book of Revelation Martin Luther found it an offensive piece of work. John Calvin had grave doubts about its value. Thomas Jefferson omitted it entirely from the Bible he edited, and wrote that he "considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams". I don't care who they were and how influential they were, they were wrong. The book of Revelation is VITAL to Christianity because it speaks of Jesus' second coming. Yes, maybe it was a dream, but that is no excuse to rule it out as a prophecy. Other prophesies in The Bible have come in the form of dreams and have come true. Don't dare cross out Revelation for any reason. It is part of God himself.
AFTER the rapture, God will give everyone else physical proof of his existence. This is Jesus' second coming. After there is proof we can no longer operate on Faith alone. We need to prove ourselves to get into heaven at that point." I will say that i've never once read this. Where is your proof on this?
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Salty the Rockstar Captain
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Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:35 pm
The Rainbow Lemon @ Salty and TaylorI believe the questions he is asking are referring to during and after the Rapture, which is described in the book of Revelation. Your answers apply only before the Rapture. During and after the Rapture things will be completely different, therefore calling for different answers to his questions. After re-reading Revelation and discussing it with others, I have answers that apply to AFTER the rapture. So... Mr. Peacecorps: 1. I have no answer for Question #1 as I don't know the reference. 2. Yes. If we do not believe in God and what He has done for us fully we will not be accepted into Heaven. Period. 3. After Jesus' second coming? YES. During the rapture, God will take all the people who, wholeheartedly, believe in Him, with no physical proof. That is why it's 'Faith'. AFTER the rapture, God will give everyone else physical proof of his existence. This is Jesus' second coming. After there is proof we can no longer operate on Faith alone. We need to prove ourselves to get into heaven at that point. 4. Yes. Right now, BEFORE the rapture, we can afford to love. That is because right now, we are trying to get as many people 'on God's side' as possible. AFTER the rapture, if you aren't on God's side, then you're on Satan's by default. Sinners have had their chance by then, now God and His followers need to crack down on Sin. But that doesn't mean that we won't be doing it out of love. As Christians, we are instructed to love. Out of love we will try to bring as many people to God, but at that point love will not be enough. It's like an intervention. Yes, we are using force. But we're doing it out of love. 5. Why not? "All scripture is God breathed" 2 Tim. 3:16 Last I checked Revelations is still part of The Word, our Bible.
"In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God." (John 1:1) See? "The Word was God" This brings me back to Answer 2 and what I said in my previous post: If we don't believe in The Bible ALL THE WAY, then we don't believe in God ALL THE WAY. If we don't believe in God ALL THE WAY, we aren't going to heaven. Okay.. I'm starting to see how I was wrong on #3... Because I forgot about Jesus revealing himself and thus removing faith like we have now.. But I still disagree with your answer to #2. May I have your scriptural reference for that? Since Jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins and save us from death. How could a child be condemed if they are still innocent? What if they are young enough to have no sins to confess?
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