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 Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:31 am
So my local pirate crew is paying me to design some siege weapons for them and I know we aren't allowed to make cannons, my question is why? I can make a spring loaded cannon thats perfectly safe and can be half drawn with only 4 to 5 different items. Unless I'm reading is wrong it seems a bit silly to me can anyone explain to me what are the saftey reasons for this rule?
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:16 pm
If you can design a safe one, I'd take it up with officials from your kingdom on the rulings of its use. =] I'm quite certain that you could create something that appears cannon-like and pass safety rules.
-T.
I know nothing.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:52 pm
The concept of the Amtgard world is set pre-1650 (see persona guidelines). This is probably for many reasons, but one is to disallow the use of gunpowder weaponry. That's also why it's specifically mentioned in the seige weapon rules that they can't be gunpowder-based.
The game rules of Amtgard are not designed, nor were they ever intended, to include such weapons, therefore, no. You cannot have an Amtgard-legal cannon.
The pirate theme is very popular (look at my avi for heaven's sake!), which you can get away with thematically, but for the rules on the field, it no-workey.
One seige weapon I've seen done is a ballista that shoots large balls (like cannonballs). It was a three-person slingshot using one of those water balloon shooters you can attach to trucks. Two people held the slingshot ends steady while the other pulled it back, loaded, aimed, and shot. It was effective, legal, and had the same effect as a cannon would. Same thing, just call it a balista.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:06 pm
Mren Farfinder The concept of the Amtgard world is set pre-1650 (see persona guidelines). This is probably for many reasons, but one is to disallow the use of gunpowder weaponry. That's also why it's specifically mentioned in the seige weapon rules that they can't be gunpowder-based. The game rules of Amtgard are not designed, nor were they ever intended, to include such weapons, therefore, no. You cannot have an Amtgard-legal cannon. The pirate theme is very popular (look at my avi for heaven's sake!), which you can get away with thematically, but for the rules on the field, it no-workey. One seige weapon I've seen done is a ballista that shoots large balls (like cannonballs). It was a three-person slingshot using one of those water balloon shooters you can attach to trucks. Two people held the slingshot ends steady while the other pulled it back, loaded, aimed, and shot. It was effective, legal, and had the same effect as a cannon would. Same thing, just call it a balista. That's a great idea, and is easily customized to your piratical theme =] -T I know nothing
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:47 pm
But gun powder weaponry was around since the 1200s. I really am looking for a safety reason cause I can make a safe one and if it's approved by the kingdom it's a step towards advancing Amtgard.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:00 pm
Yes they did have guns and cannons before 1650. Can you make one? I have no idea but I do know that you cannot have any kind of explosive or compressed gas propellant for weapons. My crew mates and I are also working on this but I'm waiting until Discord to brainstorm with some better educated people. I need to know what is aloud and what might work.
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Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:33 pm
One word SPRINGS! Have a system that locks it into a ridge then pull the spring back lock it into place aim and release.
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:31 am
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but here it goes anyway.
There are NO weapons allowed in the game for use on the combat field that are powered by gunpowder or explosives of any kind. I know that such weapons were around much earlier than the 1650's, but they are SPECIFICALLY and INTENTIONALLY disallowed in Amtgard.
I know you say getting it approved by the kingdom is "a step towards advancing Amtgard". But at that point, IT WILL NO LONGER BE AMTGARD.
This is not a question of refining wording in a rulebook description or altering a spell to make it more useful. The absense of gunpowder weapons is a fundamental aspect of the game.
It's like saying "Let's advance the game of soccer by allowing the use of hands." At that point, it's no longer soccer.
Okay, I've said my peace. Do what you will.
Let me know what your kingdom says.
Respecfully,
Ominique
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:17 am
Have you guys ever used a trebuchette?
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:21 pm
That seemed a bit harsh and that comparison is rough. I don't understand how another siege weapon such as a cannon will change Amtgard for the worse. It's not like using it will be any different from a normal siege weapon there will have to be 3 people manning it the damage isn't splash like normal cannon balls I'm not changing 20 rules just disputing one. That's why from my original question is the safety cause I've read the 7.5 rule book back and forth and the rules are there for our safety but if there isn't a safety reason I don't see why it should be so frowned upon. I don't want this to get into an argument just that post made me a little upset shooting down my idea for really no solid reason besides personal preference.
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:57 pm
Ummm King Fink had a couple of amt-legal flintlocks in WL. I've also seen some impressive "cannons" but Mren is right the rules do technically say no to them... but sometimes bad rules need to be bent... but that is a Kingdom/park ruling.
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:31 pm
Mren Farfinder I'm sorry I kinda went a bit to far there just been having a bit of stress with my new bow coming in late and then having to be sent back for faulty wood and my SAT studying. I do still plan to take it to kingdom cause I do think we should try improving on the rules even something that hasn't been changed since the start.
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:13 pm
19A25 Mren Farfinder I'm sorry I kinda went a bit to far there just been having a bit of stress with my new bow coming in late and then having to be sent back for faulty wood and my SAT studying. I do still plan to take it to kingdom cause I do think we should try improving on the rules even something that hasn't been changed since the start. I'm not offended by your response. It's what I expect when the gunpowder suggestion is made and responded to as I did. You may not consider there to be any good reason for this, which is fine. You're still free to bring it up to your kingdom officials. Angelju is right in saying that the kingdom may give special leniency for it to be used in certain scenarios/quests. I can't say for sure how that decision would turn out. My first response back to you would be that the absense of gunpowder and explosives in the official rules of Amtgard is a core concept of the game. My soccer analogy may have seemed harsh, but I believe it's a fair comparison here. If you look at any other game, roleplay or otherwise, they all have core concepts that, if changed, it is no longer the game. That's what gives us soccer, rugby, and football. Comparatively, that's what has given us SCA, Amtgard, and HFS. My second response is that I would ask that you think about the fact that it really comes down to what you CALL your weapon. You're not really using gunpowder to run the machine. Your design idea with springs and a ridged lock system is a very valid design concept for a seige weapon. It only goes against the rules because of what you're intending to call it. Now, go drink a Mountain Dew and cram for the SAT's. That's 20 times more important than us hashing back and forth over this playtime game. Don't forget to pick a college in an Amtgard town. Ominique
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:46 pm
Mren Farfinder Don't forget to pick a college in an Amtgard town. What she said. -T I know nothing
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Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:16 pm
another historical aspect of gunpowder siege weapons:
while there are examples of gunpowder weapons within the time frame of amtgard, there are very few examples of effective gunpowder weapons from the time. without the advances of casting techniques for the cannon tubes, they tended to have catastrophic misfires and problems with quality control. what few weapons there were tended to be vanity statements by one ruler or another, and not something in general use. while technology was advancing, the time frame of the game doesn't really support the concept. what we're probably seeing is simply a philosophical decision on what to include within the framework of the game, since gunpowder doesn't really fit the concepts of high fantasy so well, it was excluded.
personally, while I don't doubt you have a great idea on how to set it up, I'm not really in favor of including gunpowder in amtgard. its not really something that would seem to benefit the game overall, while it would be cool in specific situation. somewhat along the same lines, whats to stop someone from including equestrianism in amtgard. some of the same arguments could be used to advance that thought, historical accuracy and so forth, but the safety issues far overwhelm the coolness.
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